Saturday, 2 April, 2011 - 12:00am
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[14:00] #knownspace> NickE: earlyish
[14:00] Jim has joined #knownspace
[14:09] #knownspace> NickE: evenin
[14:22] ronn has joined #knownspace
[14:23] #knownspace> NickE: hi Ronn
[14:23] #knownspace> ronn: Hello! Doesn't look very busy atm . . .
[14:23] #knownspace> NickE: no
[14:23] #knownspace> NickE: I may be distracted as The Last Goon Show of All is on the tV right now :-)
[14:26] #knownspace> ronn: OK, I'll just hang on and see if things pick up.
[14:29] #knownspace> NickE: k
[14:46] #knownspace> SeanS: Hi, guys. Just got back from the grocery
[14:46] #knownspace> NickE: hi
[14:47] #knownspace> NickE: eating
[14:47] #knownspace> SeanS: We saw a good looking recipe on the food network earlier. going to try it out later
[14:48] #knownspace> SeanS: shrimp and mushrooms with a home made old bay type seasoning.
[14:59] #knownspace> Jim: hello
[14:59] #knownspace> SeanS: hiya
[15:02] #knownspace> NickE: ah, back
[15:03] #knownspace> NickE: yum
[15:03] #knownspace> NickE: shrimp and mushroom sound good
[15:04] #knownspace> SeanS: let me find the link
[15:04] #knownspace> SeanS: http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/rachael-ray/shrimp-and-shrooms-with-s...
[15:04] #knownspace> NickE: just had hoem made pepperoni meatballs and spaghetti
[15:07] #knownspace> NickE: mm, sounds good
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[15:10] #knownspace> NickE: no ign of Larry
[15:10] #knownspace> NickE: sign even
[15:11] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry usually doesn't show up until about 1 PM Pacific Time
[15:11] #knownspace> NickE: I missd the last 2 chats, anything interesting?
[15:12] #knownspace> NickE: Ah and we've just gone to BST, so makes sense
[15:12] #knownspace> NickE: hi Lens
[15:12] #knownspace> Lensman: I'm sure there was, but I just got up from a nap and brain is too fuzzy to remember.
[15:13] #knownspace> Lensman: Hi, Nick
[15:13] #knownspace> Lensman: BST?
[15:14] #knownspace> SeanS: British Standard Time I would guess
[15:14] #knownspace> NickE: british summer time (= daylight savings)
[15:14] #knownspace> Lensman: Ah.
[15:14] #knownspace> SeanS: close
[15:14] #knownspace> Lensman: Yeah, I just read about Summer Time recently, didn't know the acronym.
[15:14] #knownspace> NickE: There's talk of moving away from GMT altogether. Bloody daft idea
[15:15] #knownspace> NickE: seeings as Greenwich is the bloody meridian
[15:16] #knownspace> NickE: so we'd be on BST all winter as well!
[15:16] Larry has joined #knownspace
[15:16] #knownspace> NickE: Hi Larry!
[15:16] #knownspace> Larry: Hello.
[15:16] #knownspace> Larry: sorry I'm late. got distracted.
[15:17] #knownspace> NickE: so was I...by The Goon Show :-)
[15:17] #knownspace> SeanS: Hi Larry.
[15:19] #knownspace> Larry: I'm sending a first draft of THE BOLD OF HEAVEN to our editor and some readers. Can't figure how to send the associate Don Davis paintings.
[15:19] #knownspace> NickE: So, Ceres, lots of water maybe. How would that fit in withe Belter civilisation? (fairly well I'd have thought)
[15:19] #knownspace> NickE: Bowl of Heaven? Yay!!
[15:20] #knownspace> Larry: Water on/in Ceres does sound convenient.
[15:21] #knownspace> NickE: Bowl is with Greg Benford?
[15:22] #knownspace> Lensman: Yah! indeed!
[15:23] #knownspace> Lensman: Nick: But you're looking at it wrong. Since you Brits own Greenwich, the standard time is whatever time y'all say it is!
[15:23] #knownspace> NickE: mind you, I'm very behind in my reading lately, so should be out by the time I'm back up to date :-)
[15:24] #knownspace> Lensman: I presume everyone has read /Betrayer of Worlds/ by now. ;-)
[15:24] #knownspace> NickE: well true, but some in Govt want us to go continental time permanently
[15:24] #knownspace> NickE: ah.....like I said, *very* behind
[15:25] #knownspace> NickE: I'll just stick my fingers in my ears s it were :-)
[15:26] #knownspace> Lensman: Nick: Just remind 'em that Semtek works much better than than the gunpowder Guy Fawkes had! ;-)
[15:26] #knownspace> Larry: Yeah, Bowl is with Greg Benford. He's traveling right now, while I polish and send the book.
[15:27] #knownspace> NickE: shiny. How long ago was it that the idea first came up.? I certainly recall it being discussed here quite some time back
[15:27] #knownspace> NickE: It was Wok WOrld for a while :-)
[15:28] #knownspace> Lensman: I think "Bowl of Heaven" probably will look better on the dust jacket. :)
[15:28] #knownspace> Larry: It's taken awhile, yes. Greg fizzes with ideas and implications. That's why the book fissioned. We've finished volume one--until an editor tells us it needs fixing.
[15:29] #knownspace> NickE: agreed
[15:29] #knownspace> Lensman: "Wok World" sounds like a Terry Pratchett title. (And may be someday!)
[15:29] #knownspace> NickE: oh, more than one. Excellent
[15:30] #knownspace> Larry: We commissioned Don Davis paintings. They're wonderful. Will serve as covers, I think.
[15:30] #knownspace> NickE: Sounds good
[15:31] #knownspace> Lensman: Don Davis did a cover for one Del Rey edition of /Ringworld/.
[15:31] #knownspace> NickE: ah
[15:31] #knownspace> NickE: I knew the name
[15:31] #knownspace> Larry: When Ringworld was new, a local fan wrote "Cupworld". Half a Dyson sphere. Spaceport in the handle. Night supplied by the shadows of great orbiting teabags.
[15:32] #knownspace> NickE: LOL
[15:33] #knownspace> Lensman: LOL
[15:33] #knownspace> NickE: Beware teh coming of the cosmic digestive!!
[15:34] #knownspace> NickE: Hot Teaspoon of Inquiry?
[15:34] #knownspace> SeanS: heh
[15:34] #knownspace> Lensman: And the sequel, no doubt, was "Cupandsaucerworld
[15:34] #knownspace> Larry: :)
[15:35] #knownspace> NickE: brb
[15:36] #knownspace> Lensman: In which the author details the necessity for a saucer below the cup, to catch and recycle liquid spilled over the edge of the Cup.
[15:38] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, if there was ever a time in which the apocryphal Ancient Chinese saying was appropriate, "May you live in interesting times" seems to fit recent days!
[15:38] #knownspace> ronn: So "Cupworld" was built by right-wingers?
[15:39] #knownspace> Lensman: Nonsense. For those living on the opposite side of the Cup, it was built by left-wingers. And hence the source of religious heresy.
[15:40] #knownspace> NickE: :-)
[15:41] #knownspace> ronn: Re BoW: I'm trying to access the library's on-line site to see about requesting it (I haven't been able to get there recently but I need to go early next week if for no other reason than to make copies of some papers I have to get in the mail) but their system is s_l_o_w and inefficient and hard-to-use sometimes . . .
[15:41] #knownspace> Larry: I was certain that there would be no hurricanes on the Ringworld. Greg is sure there will be on the Bowl. You guys can't see Don's picture, so I've got no argument.
[15:41] #knownspace> Lensman: (Psst! Those godless left-handle-worshippers don't even believe in the Great Cosmic Teapot!)
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[15:42] #knownspace> NickE: wb
[15:43] #knownspace> Larry: Great Cosmic Teapot is a terrifying implication.
[15:43] #knownspace> ronn: "The opposite side" = the outside?
[15:43] #knownspace> NickE: I imagine the weather patterns would be...interesting
[15:45] #knownspace> Larry: Yeah, Greg's put in some horrifying weather. It's his structure, so he wins that--and the weather is very pretty.
[15:46] #knownspace> NickE: I bet
[15:46] #knownspace> Lensman: Assuming the Bowl is rotating, then it does seem to me you'd get wind patterns from that. Moving outward from the center would give you vectors from the Coriolis force, altho if it were really enormous-- which I presume it is-- then the amount of velocity change would be much smaller than on earth. But feedback effects from temperature changes might drive hurricanes? Or not?
[15:47] #knownspace> NickE: I expect so, a hurricane is a heat engine essentially
[15:47] #knownspace> Lensman: The existence of a watch implies a watchmaker. Doesn't the existence of a Cosmic Teacup imply the existence of a Cosmic Teapot? ;-)
[15:48] #knownspace> NickE: I imagine a lot would depend on how/if day night/seasonal cycles are simulated
[15:49] #knownspace> NickE: Well there is that. And by implication the existence of the background teatray
[15:49] #knownspace> Lensman: By "the opposite side" I meant those on the other side of the inhabited area inside the Cup. But I'm not sure we're speaking the same language-- I'm not really sure what you meant by "right-winger", Ronn.
[15:50] #knownspace> ronn: Okay, at last, _Betrayer_ is on request from the local library. They seem to have 5 copies in the system, 2 of which are out, so maybe all it will take is for them to take one of the others off the shelf and get it to the local branch.
[15:50] #knownspace> Lensman: I thought perhaps you were referring the the cup handle being oriented for a right-handed God?
[15:50] #knownspace> Larry: We did without night. Just dawned on me: it's like Asimov's "Nightfall".
[15:51] #knownspace> NickE: ooh. Interesting
[15:51] #knownspace> ronn: Lens: Iit is surrounded by teabags . . . ;P
[15:51] #knownspace> NickE: Does night fall (no don't tell me!)
[15:51] #knownspace> Lensman: Doing without night certainly simplifies things.
[15:52] #knownspace> Lensman: Ronn: Oh. Duh.
[15:52] #knownspace> ronn: Nick: Is that "the background tea-tray" or "the background teat-ray"?
[15:52] #knownspace> NickE: <groan>
[15:52] #knownspace> NickE: :-)
[15:52] #knownspace> Larry: I can't think of a way to bring night to the Bowl without horrific destruction.
[15:53] #knownspace> NickE: it's all to do with teabag string theory
[15:53] #knownspace> ronn: Night falls, then dawn breaks. It's hard to get any sleep with all that noise.
[15:53] #knownspace> Lensman: "Night fell. *Thump*"
[15:54] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry: What is the source of light in the Bowl?
[15:54] #knownspace> NickE: just getting a beer brb
[15:55] #knownspace> Lensman: Just city lights, or a central artificial sun, or what?
[15:55] #knownspace> ronn: Lens: The source of light in the teacup is a tea light, of course.
[15:55] #knownspace> Larry: The Bowl has a red dwarf star above its focus.
[15:56] #knownspace> Larry: More I dare not say.
[15:56] #knownspace> Jim: I missed some of the discussion because the snow caused my internet to go out. How large is the bowl? What is its shape?
[15:56] #knownspace> Jim: I missed some of the discussion because the snow caused my internet to go out. How large is the bowl? What is its shape?
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[15:56] #knownspace> NickE: er bowl shape?
[15:57] #knownspace> NickE: star above the focus...ok hadn't thought of that
[15:57] #knownspace> Jim: If the bowl has a focus, is it parabolic in shape?
[15:58] #knownspace> NickE: it would still have a focus if it was half a sphere wouldn't it?
[15:58] #knownspace> NickE: but fair question
[15:58] #knownspace> Larry: Bowl is not really a half-sphere. It looks like a wok with a rim, or a Ringworld with a lid. Mirror in the lid. Live on the rim.
[15:59] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, if you have a building material as strong as, say, /scrith/, then make a pole in the middle of the bowl, then suspend shadow squares from wires connected to the pole. Rotate them around the pole in symmetrically balanced pairs. But ghod help them if one comes loose, or if the pair slows its rotation down enough to drag the surface of the bowl...
[15:59] #knownspace> Larry: The morrors focus on the red sun's pole. A flare acts as a rocket, firing through a hole in the wok.
[16:00] #knownspace> NickE: whoa!
[16:00] #knownspace> NickE: </keannu>
[16:00] #knownspace> Jim: Traveling in style!
[16:00] #knownspace> SeanS: heh
[16:00] #knownspace> NickE: so it's drivable
[16:01] #knownspace> Lensman: People are not living on the surface of the Bowl itself? I'm not getting the picture.
[16:01] #knownspace> Larry: Greg likes the term "shipstar".
[16:01] #knownspace> NickE: oh I like that too
[16:01] #knownspace> ronn: The focus of a spherical mirror would be at the center. An ellipsoidal mirror would have two foci (at the foci of the ellipse which was rotated to form the ellipse).
[16:02] #knownspace> Lensman: "Shipstar" is very evocative.
[16:04] #knownspace> NickE: ah... so folk live on the (rotating) rim like a RW- the bowl itself is part of the drive system/environment controls
[16:05] #knownspace> NickE: or am I not getting it? (Don't recall how far teh discussion ewent years back or how much teh idea has evolved since)
[16:06] #knownspace> Lensman: The rim is oriented parallel to the axis of the bowl? As in /Ringworld/? And not perpendicular to the axis, as one would expect with a cooking wok?
[16:06] #knownspace> ronn: So from the outside it looks like a giant flying saucer?
[16:08] #knownspace> Lensman: I'm completely confused, as I thought people were living on the inside surface of the Bowl.
[16:08] #knownspace> Larry: something like a flying saucer, yeah.
[16:08] #knownspace> NickE: cool
[16:08] #knownspace> NickE: I think that was possibly part of the original idea maybe
[16:09] #knownspace> Larry: It's a Ringworld with a lid, by the time we finished fiddling. Add low-grav habitats near the hole. And it flies.
[16:10] #knownspace> Jim: dimensions?
[16:10] #knownspace> Lensman: But if the inhabitants see the Bowl *above* the world they live in, then the term "Bowl of Heaven" is more descriptive, and not as abstract as I thought.
[16:10] #knownspace> NickE: so this is sort of a Ringworld Plus? More Dyson sphere like...ah so folk do live on teh bowl inner surface
[16:11] #knownspace> NickE: Big. But RW big? Or just damn huge :-)
[16:11] #knownspace> Larry: We left the dimensions soft. It's Ringworld size if you extend the rim past a million miles.
[16:12] #knownspace> Lensman: With a red dwarf star, the diameter can be smaller and still have liquid water.
[16:13] #knownspace> Lensman: I mean, a habitat with liquid water. The temperature zone for earth-like life.
[16:14] #knownspace> NickE: So could you extend the living room by adding to the rim height? (like you'd need to but in theory)
[16:14] #knownspace> Larry: Notice that a lot of sunlight is coming from the flare--and that has a temperature control. (Otherwise, red light doesn't get you plants.)
[16:15] #knownspace> Lensman: Oho! I was assuming plants adapted for far-red radiation. So they can have something approaching an earth-like ecosystem, then.
[16:15] #knownspace> NickE: Ah, so it's always on the move? How long does your fuel last? or do you just hook up wth a new dwarfstar onec you're done?
[16:16] #knownspace> Larry: Yes, Nick. The Ringworld's million-mile width always was negotiable. In practice you could acquire more mass.
[16:16] #knownspace> NickE: And how do you slow down? Might nd up in Tau zero territory otherwise if the star lasts
[16:16] #knownspace> NickE: just put on an extension :-)
[16:17] #knownspace> NickE: makes sense when you think on that scale
[16:17] #knownspace> Lensman: "Model homes now open for tours in our new expansion." ;-)
[16:19] #knownspace> Lensman: Depending on how good the control is, they could balance the flare with a second flare on the opposite side of the sun. That will still give you the light, but not the acceleration. Or even deceleration, if the opposing flare is stronger.
[16:19] #knownspace> NickE: I guess if teh flare can be tightly controlled (pretty much a given), you could make it last a long time
[16:19] #knownspace> Larry: The Bowl isn't traveling fast. Friction with the interstellar environment is high.
[16:20] #knownspace> Lensman: And I don't think a couple of flares is gonna deplete the stellar mass that quickly. I would expect the lifespan to be not much shorter than a normal red dwarf, which is very long indeed, even measured in billions of years.
[16:20] #knownspace> NickE: I guess it would be at that with that area presented to the direction of travel
[16:20] #knownspace> Larry: The builders may not plan to slow down.
[16:20] #knownspace> Jim: Does the drag equation from elementary fluid mechanics work in the interstellar medium?
[16:21] #knownspace> NickE: Grand tour, non stop...
[16:23] #knownspace> Larry: Drag would be hard to estimate.
[16:23] #knownspace> NickE: and would vary depending on what regions of space you travelled through
[16:24] #knownspace> NickE: between galactic arms, velocity would increase for a given thrust
[16:24] #knownspace> NickE: assuming the spaces are mostly empty
[16:25] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, we have observed shock waves in gas/dust clouds near... I forget. Supernovae? New stars in stellar "nurseries"? Shock waves in the interstellar medium were mentioned in /Fleet of Worlds/, and that idea seems to be based on phenomenon astronomers have actually observed.
[16:25] #knownspace> NickE: which certainly implies many areas are relatiely dense
[16:26] #knownspace> Lensman: If they can't stop, that makes me wonder if there is any purpose to the journey. Is it indeed sight-seeing? That would imply very long-lived inhabitants. Or much time spent in stasis/frozen sleep.
[16:26] #knownspace> NickE: I imagine fluid dynamics would apply at least broadly to go back to Jim's comment
[16:28] #knownspace> NickE: Or just an ideological quirk of the builders..lets face it, to build something on that scale you have to have a strong motivation if you are not already god like
[16:29] #knownspace> Lensman: Heh. What story was it where they kept building ever more powerful computers to ask the question, "Is there a God?" Finally the answer came: "There is now."
[16:30] #knownspace> NickE: mm not sure
[16:30] #knownspace> NickE: Asimov?
[16:31] #knownspace> Lensman: A rather obvious ending, but I suppose someone had to write that story sometime.
[16:31] #knownspace> Lensman: Might have been Asimov, yah.
[16:31] #knownspace> NickE: mm, no, teh Multivac on ended a bit differently
[16:31] #knownspace> NickE: I think
[16:31] #knownspace> NickE: been a long time since I read those
[16:32] #knownspace> Larry: The God story was by Sheckley. "Now there is a God."
[16:32] #knownspace> NickE: ah, thansk Larry
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[16:32] #knownspace> Lensman: Ah. Indeed, thanks Larry!
[16:32] #knownspace> NickE: yo Belter
[16:32] #knownspace> Lensman: Hi SB!
[16:33] #knownspace> Lensman: We are discussing the implications of /Bowl of Heaven/, formerly known as "Wok World".
[16:33] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry says the first draft has been sent to the publisher.
[16:34] #knownspace> SolBelter: thx
[16:35] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, what I think perhaps is not sufficiently explored in stories of megastructures is why a species or group would be sufficiently motivated to undertake and complete such a mind-blowing project. Might be a more interesting story background if the project was abandoned half-way.
[16:36] #knownspace> Larry: Half a Dyson sphere...half completed. Not our story, but possible fun.
[16:37] #knownspace> NickE: Well, could teh Bowl be exactly that... oh, what Larry said :-)
[16:37] #knownspace> SolBelter: here's Rick Sternbach's Dysonsphere for Pohl and Williamson novel
[16:37] #knownspace> Lensman: We can still argue over who built the Ringworld, and why. That's okay because Larry deliberately left us without an answer from the Omniscient Narrator, merely a suggested answer from Proserpina's story. But even she didn't really address the question of *why*, merely *who*.
[16:38] #knownspace> SolBelter: http://www.munchkinpress.com/cpg149/displayimage.php?album=31&pos=92
[16:38] #knownspace> SolBelter: and at first I thought the builders had abandoned this partway through since Rick sed a cutaway view :)
[16:39] #knownspace> SolBelter: but not mentioned in the novel, so this doesnt count as an abandoned megastructure
[16:40] #knownspace> SolBelter: used a cutaway^
[16:40] #knownspace> Larry: The Bowl is not abandoned. Carefully maintained. Otherwise it falls apart quickly.
[16:42] #knownspace> NickE: figures
[16:43] #knownspace> ronn: Lens: Both. Also near "ordinary" fast moving stars-, e.g. Mira (Link) and alpha Camelopardalis (Link)
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[16:43] #knownspace> ronn: Things are crawling here so I need to restart. brb.
[16:44] #knownspace> Lensman: What happens if civilization breaks down? We can assume the solar flare either stops or stops being at the focus, so light for growing plants fails. Does worse happen? Does the sun drift into contact with the Bowl or the rim?
[16:45] #knownspace> NickE: sorry, just drooling over this: Link
[16:45] #knownspace> Larry: Magnetic generators hold it all in place. If folk stop tending those, all hell breaks loose.
[16:46] #knownspace> George: Another unstable Big Giant Thing, eh?
[16:46] #knownspace> George: Hi Folks, I finally made it!
[16:46] #knownspace> Larry: George: yeah.
[16:46] #knownspace> NickE: Yep. Boring otherwise :-) Hi George
[16:46] #knownspace> Lensman: Or "Enormous Big Thing", to use David Gerrold's phrase.
[16:46] #knownspace> George: Wok World?
[16:46] #knownspace> NickE: heh yeah
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[16:46] #knownspace> NickE: yes
[16:46] #knownspace> George: That's what I meant, thanks Lens!
[16:46] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, George. Retitled /Bowl of Heaven/.
[16:46] #knownspace> Hippy: Afternoon, everyone
[16:47] #knownspace> Jim: Hippy!
[16:47] #knownspace> NickE: Evenin
[16:47] #knownspace> Hippy: Jim!
[16:47] #knownspace> George: Bowl of Heaven - I like it.
[16:47] #knownspace> Hippy: How are we all in our respective, cold, cloudy timezones?
[16:48] #knownspace> Jim: snow
[16:48] #knownspace> Hippy: Evenin', Nick
[16:48] #knownspace> NickE: yo
[16:48] #knownspace> NickE: actually spring like here
[16:48] #knownspace> George: Sunny and cool here, but a Enormous Big Storm coming in two days. :-P
[16:48] #knownspace> Hippy: Snow? That's late in the season for snow
[16:48] #knownspace> Lensman: It's 73 F and sunny, here!
[16:49] #knownspace> George: I'm sure this has been gone over, but what does a Bowl of Heaven do for gravity?
[16:49] #knownspace> Hippy: Isn't it good that we're not doing this by snail mail?
[16:49] #knownspace> NickE: spins
[16:49] #knownspace> NickE: oh god yes
[16:49] #knownspace> SolBelter: cloudy but up to 53 in Boston - getting edge of snowstorm further north possibly
[16:49] #knownspace> Lensman: A snail mail chat is an APA. A very different experience.
[16:50] #knownspace> George: Spins, and lower on the Bowl, less gravity? Nice!
[16:50] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, they're saying we're going to have a warm Autumn, so I suppose it's only fair you get a cold Spring
[16:50] #knownspace> SeanS: love the bottle opener, Nick
[16:50] #knownspace> Lensman: I'm not sure this has been addressed. Larry, is the Bowl spun for gravity, like the Ringworld?
[16:50] #knownspace> NickE: Has to be I assume
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[16:50] #knownspace> NickE: wb]
[16:50] #knownspace> Hippy: Yes, but what axis does it spin on?
[16:51] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, Larry did say there were low-gravity habitats near the opening (axis) of the Bowl, so I suppose that means it's spun for gravity.
[16:51] #knownspace> Hippy: Is the axis drawn rim to rim of the bowl, or perpendicular to the surface?
[16:52] #knownspace> George: I figured it'd spin like a bowl on a table, open side up.
[16:52] #knownspace> NickE: yes
[16:52] #knownspace> Hippy: Yah, I did too really, but it's worth considering the other option :)
[16:52] #knownspace> George: I would think that'd give higher gravity at the rim.
[16:52] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry said it's Ringworld with a rim. Not sure what that means, but I think he means you take Ringworld, and attach a giant bowl to one side. But it's not a complete hemisphere, it's really more like a wok in proportions.
[16:53] #knownspace> Lensman: Er, sorry. Larry said it's Ringworld with a *lid*.
[16:53] #knownspace> George: Stepped levels down the bowl, like, um, rice paddies, for want of a better example?
[16:53] #knownspace> NickE: could be
[16:54] #knownspace> Lensman: George: No, Larry said most of the lid/bowl is uninhabited.
[16:54] #knownspace> Hippy: Or just a curve. At those scales it would all seem flat
[16:54] #knownspace> George: A smooth bowl might be better, otherwise it's a set of successively (sp?) smaller ringworlds . . .
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[16:54] #knownspace> Jim: like the bench steps on the side of a cut section in a highway
[16:54] #knownspace> NickE: hi Frank
[16:54] #knownspace> senax: Hi everyone
[16:54] #knownspace> Hippy: Water would flow 'up toward the rims
[16:55] #knownspace> Lensman: I was thinking like James White's /Federation/. A Dyson sphere with giant terraces, and the ends have large openings so there's no area of zero-G.
[16:55] #knownspace> George: Unihabited, stet, but what's there? Solar power generators and other such maintenance?
[16:55] #knownspace> Lensman: I mean, I was thinking of that before today. Larry's description is rather different.
[16:56] #knownspace> NickE: red dwarf star above teh focus
[16:57] #knownspace> Lensman: Star has a perpetual flare, and the flare is controlled for temperature, so they can grow plants for food.
[16:57] #knownspace> George: Put one lid on a Ringworld, might as well put another, and you're halfway to Dyson Sphere. :-)
[16:57] #knownspace> NickE: is cool (or hot)
[16:57] #knownspace> Hippy: Sounds like a Dyson Frisbee
[16:58] #knownspace> NickE: lol..pretty close I think
[16:58] #knownspace> George: Does it really need the flare?
[16:58] #knownspace> Hippy: If it's a red dwarf star, it would
[16:58] #knownspace> Hippy: To get a G-type star's light
[16:59] #knownspace> George: Build closer to the star? Might be better than having to maintain that flare . . !
[16:59] #knownspace> Jim: A frisbee with a hole in the center of the top of the frisbee and a red dwarf star just above the focus of the top.
[16:59] #knownspace> George: Wondering what such a permanent artificially caused flare might do to the star over time . . .
[16:59] #knownspace> Hippy: But what about UV and 'green' light etc, to grow Earthlike (or Gummidgy-like) plants?
[17:00] #knownspace> Lensman: I don't know if chlorophyll based plants can grow under a red star. Apparently Larry thinks not.
[17:00] #knownspace> George: The flare would also be a drive engine, yes?
[17:00] #knownspace> Jim: Larry said that the temperature of the flare would be controlled to get the appropriate frequencies of light for green plants.
[17:00] #knownspace> George: Niiiice!
[17:00] #knownspace> Jim: George, yes
[17:01] #knownspace> George: Sweet. I like this place!
[17:01] #knownspace> Lensman: Certainly a red star doesn't have the right frequency for green plants, altho there might be some evolutionary adaptation which would allow leaves to shift the spectrum before the light is absorbed.
[17:01] #knownspace> Hippy: So, what do you do about the wager running towards the high gravity edges of the Bowl?
[17:01] #knownspace> Jim: Will there be evil robots like in Benford's Galactic Center universe?
[17:02] #knownspace> Hippy: There're always evil robots eventually. It's inevitable
[17:02] #knownspace> NickE: lol
[17:02] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, Wok World is rocketed slowly thru the interstellar medium by the perpetual flare of the sun. But it doesn't accelerate because of friction from interstellar gas.
[17:02] #knownspace> George: Galaxy's biggest flying saucer, with a star for an engine. :-D
[17:03] #knownspace> NickE: yep
[17:03] #knownspace> NickE: well, it must accelerate some
[17:03] #knownspace> NickE: depends on flare control and medium density
[17:04] #knownspace> Lensman: I'm sure there's some Law of SF that says every high-tech culture must eventually build Evil Robots. ;-)
[17:04] #knownspace> Hippy: So now you have gravity in two directios
[17:04] #knownspace> NickE: but yeah, it's as aerodynamic as a brick
[17:04] #knownspace> George: Wonders if the interstellar gas would be enough to prevent acceleration. That's a big engine, but it's a bigger surface.
[17:05] #knownspace> NickE: probably a bit of a balancing act thrust/drag
[17:05] #knownspace> senax: You could paint stripes on it. Stripes make anything go faster.
[17:05] #knownspace> NickE: one wonders if "aerodynamic instability" is an issue
[17:05] #knownspace> NickE: wobbles
[17:06] #knownspace> NickE: ooh, nice image
[17:06] #knownspace> George: Evil robots are usually an accident, and a surprise! ;-) Robots built to be evil, like the robotic war machines being researched now, have better safeguards built in!
[17:06] #knownspace> Lensman: The point is that the force of acceleration is balanced by the drag of the interstellar medium. I guess I shouldn't have said there is no acceleration. But Wok World isn't increasing its velocity endlessly, as in /Tau Zero/. It's reached terminal velocity.
[17:06] #knownspace> George: LOL at senax!
[17:06] #knownspace> Jim: the solar wind from the red dwarf star may be enough to compensate for the unaerodynamic shape of the bowl
[17:06] #knownspace> SolBelter: creating compression eddies in interstellar medium...
[17:06] #knownspace> Hippy: The first generation does, but subsequent generations, built by war machines, might have those saeguards built out
[17:07] #knownspace> NickE: Jim: that's a thought
[17:07] #knownspace> SolBelter: hmmm... a frisbee in flight - a 'flying whirled?'
[17:08] #knownspace> Hippy: LOL
[17:08] #knownspace> George: Ha!
[17:08] #knownspace> Hippy: Of course, perhaps we should be thinking of a coracle sailing through water. This is a big Frisbee
[17:08] #knownspace> SolBelter: hence the shockwave
[17:08] #knownspace> NickE: so teh whole system may in fact end up like a massive Dauntles teardrop
[17:09] #knownspace> Lensman: .../Dauntless/ teardrop, I presume you mean.
[17:10] #knownspace> Hippy: Damn, I am being dragged off to breakfast. I shall thus be in lurking mode for an hour or so
[17:10] #knownspace> Lensman: But it's not meant to be streamlined.
[17:10] #knownspace> NickE: if the stellar wind/magnetic field is enough to offset the instability of pushing a bowl through the medium "Flat on"
[17:10] #knownspace> SolBelter: 'were'd they go?' 'Follow the tunnel in the local gas, officer!'
[17:10] #knownspace> NickE: @Lens yes
[17:10] #knownspace> NickE: hehe
[17:11] #knownspace> SolBelter: not a stealth vehicle
[17:11] #knownspace> George: Wondering how noticable this object would be to, say, a civilization like ours?
[17:11] #knownspace> Lensman: It's actively controlled. I presume they can vary the direction of the flare. In fact, they *have* to, to steer it. Otherwise it would eventually collide with another star.
[17:11] #knownspace> George: Hells, we may have seen one already and not recognized it. :-)
[17:12] #knownspace> Jim: WISE could detect the passage of one.
[17:12] #knownspace> SolBelter: 'A monograph on stellar vector changes, possibly indicating navigational intnet.'
[17:12] #knownspace> NickE: heh
[17:12] #knownspace> Lensman: George: If you've read /Fleet of Worlds/, think about the prologue in which the crew of the /Long Pass/ find the Ice World because of a "bow shock wave" in the interstellar medium. The passage of the Bowl would create a similar shock wave, which our telescopes could see.
[17:13] #knownspace> SolBelter: intent^
[17:13] #knownspace> George: Cool.
[17:13] #knownspace> SolBelter: aah, Lensman - good citation
[17:13] #knownspace> SolBelter: i'd forgotten that
[17:13] #knownspace> Lensman: Of course, only if it was close 'nuff.
[17:14] #knownspace> NickE: brb
[17:16] #knownspace> Larry: I'm back from lunch and have been catching up.
[17:17] #knownspace> NickE: wb
[17:19] #knownspace> Larry: You seem to have the Bowl under control. I'd call it Dyson-sphere level civilization.
[17:19] #knownspace> George: Hi Larry. "To your planet, welcome (back)!"
[17:19] #knownspace> NickE: heh
[17:20] #knownspace> NickE: Pretty high end then
[17:20] #knownspace> George: Is this for a work in progress? Can we get a hint of a basic plot?
[17:21] #knownspace> NickE: 1st draft with publishers at last
[17:21] #knownspace> NickE: this has been ongoing for some time
[17:21] #knownspace> George: Wasn't sure how far it had gotten. Cool! Just wondering what's going to befall those nice Bowl folks. ;-)
[17:22] #knownspace> Larry: A solar-system-sized cruise ship must have been what appealed to Greg. Plot? Earth's ship catches up to the Bowl while running short of food/water/air.
[17:22] #knownspace> George: Ah.
[17:23] #knownspace> George: Earth sent a ship after it to investigate? And by the time they get there, they can't head home . . . yet.
[17:23] ronn has joined #knownspace
[17:23] #knownspace> NickE: ah, OK
[17:24] #knownspace> NickE: wb Ronn
[17:24] #knownspace> ronn: Back. Hopefully working better.
[17:25] #knownspace> George: Dyson-level tech . . . so, more advanced then the Ringworld builders when they built the Ring?
[17:25] #knownspace> Larry: Yeah. And they're still in control.
[17:26] #knownspace> George: Yikes. And here come the alien invaders . . . us.
[17:26] #knownspace> George: Fascinating.
[17:26] #knownspace> Larry: Folk, I should go to a grocery store. Fare you well.
[17:26] #knownspace> NickE: bye Larry, thanks fro teh clues :-)
[17:27] #knownspace> George: Oddly, me too, soon. Bye, Larry!
[17:29] #knownspace> George: So what else has been discussed today?
[17:29] #knownspace> SolBelter: aha! A clue about Larry: he isn't de;endent on hydroponics...
[17:29] #knownspace> NickE: heh
[17:30] #knownspace> George: If we knew what store he was going to, we could call and have them do a page: "Larry Niven, please return to the chat for an urgent question!" X-D
[17:30] #knownspace> SolBelter: Here's a Warlock series thought
[17:30] #knownspace> NickE: heh
[17:30] #knownspace> ronn: Nor is he a robot with rechargeable energy cells . . .
[17:30] #knownspace> SolBelter: Burning City was 'Tep's Town'
[17:31] #knownspace> George: Ronn, he could be going for batteries . . .
[17:31] #knownspace> George: Tep's Town - could be!
[17:32] #knownspace> SolBelter: after quake and 'nami, we see ruins of areas run by Tokyo Electric Power Co
[17:32] #knownspace> SolBelter: 'TEP's Towns'
[17:32] #knownspace> ronn: Batteries are also on my list to get next week: we had 2 late-night power outages during the last week (Sat. and Wed.)
[17:32] #knownspace> SolBelter: TEPCO
[17:33] #knownspace> SolBelter: Asia's largest powere co - where else would a fire demon hide through the ages?
[17:33] #knownspace> SolBelter: :)
[17:34] #knownspace> George: Anybody see the NOVA special on Japan this week? Thanks to the tsunami, they have a new salt lake in the mountains. Amazing.
[17:35] #knownspace> George: Fire demon could hide in Hawaaii, with its constant eruptions.
[17:35] #knownspace> SolBelter: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/earth/japan-killer-quake.html
[17:36] #knownspace> George: The NOVA special was really sobering. The relentlesness of it all . . .
[17:36] #knownspace> George: The word "unstoppable" being redefined right before your eyes.
[17:37] #knownspace> NickE: aye. terrifying
[17:38] #knownspace> George: People talk about the ocean or the stars making one feel small. Never did for me, but this did. Man's works laid low by forces that didn't even notice them.
[17:39] #knownspace> SolBelter: some of the helicopter views - water eating land...
[17:39] #knownspace> George: We think we've conquered the planet; not so. If we get in it's way, we are swept aside like nothing.
[17:40] #knownspace> SolBelter: cars being carried along like wood
[17:40] #knownspace> ronn: Boats on roofs . . .
[17:41] #knownspace> George: Car on a hotel roof, giant boats and entire huge buildings swept along . . .
[17:41] #knownspace> SolBelter: and not picturable - whole villages dropped out of com, for hours, days, or forever, now
[17:41] #knownspace> George: The liquifaction scenes were very starnge to see, as well.
[17:41] #knownspace> NickE: the heli shot footage was just...horrific
[17:41] #knownspace> NickE: never seen aything like it
[17:42] #knownspace> SolBelter: 'we're retreating to 2nd floor of town hall' mayor's staff said - days later, cameras see high water mark on clock at top of four story town hall - no staffers
[17:42] #knownspace> George: Couple of places had tsunami walls that might have been sufficient, but nobody expected the very ground level to drop several feet! Made the walls worthless.
[17:43] #knownspace> George: Entire towns just erased.
[17:44] #knownspace> George: "Somebody tell a joke . . !"
[17:44] #knownspace> George: So, seen any good movies lately?
[17:44] #knownspace> SolBelter: you hear the one about the primates who built on the surface of an active world?
[17:44] #knownspace> George: LOL
[17:44] #knownspace> SolBelter: oh, you did ...
[17:45] #knownspace> SolBelter: my grandmother's house was in poor area near rich Sourhhamptons Long Island
[17:46] #knownspace> George: You'd think they'd learn, but no, they keep building in flood plains and earthquake/tsunami areas just as if they own the planet.
[17:46] #knownspace> SolBelter: Rich summer typers rebuilt every 15-20 yrs after their beachside homes toothpicked
[17:46] #knownspace> George: They have a poor area?
[17:46] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, the Japanese have no choice but to build in a Tsunami zone, if they want to remain Japanese.
[17:46] #knownspace> George: Yep, more money than sense. Well, hey, with insurance . . .
[17:47] #knownspace> George: S'truth, Lens.
[17:47] #knownspace> George: They did all they could to prepare, but you can only do so much.
[17:48] #knownspace> SolBelter: George, edge of Southhampton township, not the village was poor[er]Flanders
[17:48] #knownspace> SolBelter: road
[17:48] #knownspace> Lensman: And yeah, some of the shots of the tsunami wave coming in. Tossing cars about as though they were Matchbox cars in a flooded street, ships being crushed under bridges... Indeed, never have I /felt/ the power of nature on a visceral level like that before.
[17:48] #knownspace> George: Well, the data on this is more extensive than any other natural disaster. Hopefully something useful is learned.
[17:49] #knownspace> SolBelter: they lost tens of thousands of lives, not million or two, this time - building codes
[17:49] #knownspace> Lensman: Unfortunately they are getting lots of practice in trying (and sometimes failing) to keep partial meltdowns of nuclear reactors from exploding and venting.
[17:50] #knownspace> George: Much to be learned there as well.
[17:50] #knownspace> SolBelter: too much ...
[17:51] #knownspace> Lensman: Sad to see how much this will affect public perception of nuclear power, just like detailed coverage of airline crashes make people afraid of flying. And the reality is that both airplane travel and nuclear power plants are safer when taken in toto, than the most commonly used alternative-- automobiles and coal-fired plants.
[17:51] #knownspace> George: They've done more than one could expect, and have held the line as best they could. those nuke workers are national heroes.
[17:52] #knownspace> SolBelter: 'us traffic fatalities hit new low - 32,000 people'
[17:52] #knownspace> Lensman: But that's not the "lesson" that people are being taught with all the hyped coverage of the ongoing problems with the nuclear plants. The "lesson" the news media is "teaching" is that nuclear power is too dangerous and cannot be controlled.
[17:52] #knownspace> George: Hell, they're international. This could have been so much worse, if they had cut and run.
[17:52] Jim has joined #knownspace
[17:52] #knownspace> Jim: I'm back
[17:53] #knownspace> Jim: What happend in the past 30 minutes
[17:53] #knownspace> SolBelter: 1950s reactor failure novel
[17:53] #knownspace> SolBelter: talking Japan and insignificence of man's works to nature
[17:54] #knownspace> Lensman: By one estimate, 23,600 fatalities per year from pollution from coal-fired plants in the USA. If we had 10 Chernobyl disasters per year, nuclear would still be better for public health than coal-fired plants! But try to tell the average person that... they think you're crazy.
[17:54] #knownspace> George: Jim: Alien invaders, killer robots, earthquake!
[17:54] #knownspace> SolBelter: [to Jim]
[17:54] AlexA has joined #knownspace
[17:54] #knownspace> SolBelter: ay, ay, it's lex
[17:54] #knownspace> NickE: Hi Alex
[17:54] #knownspace> George: Greetings
[17:55] #knownspace> Lensman: Oops, my math is off. *Four* Chernobyl disasters per year, not 10.
[17:55] #knownspace> AlexA: Late again - forgot it's first Sat!
[17:56] #knownspace> senax: It sucks...we've needed more fission, not less, for a long time now.
[17:56] #knownspace> George: I was a bit late too - had to get some flowers in while the sun was back!
[17:56] #knownspace> NickE: missed intersting stuff on Bowl of Heaven
[17:56] #knownspace> George: Japan will be using coal plants again for a while.
[17:56] #knownspace> SolBelter: i look forward to transcript
[17:56] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, the Bowl of Heaven has some fascinating implications!
[17:56] #knownspace> Jim: nuclear is the only viable replacement for coal
[17:57] #knownspace> George: Try selling that here in Pennsylvania, where coal is a job mine. :-P
[17:57] #knownspace> AlexA: Summary? Or best to read chat transcript?
[17:57] #knownspace> George: Bwol of Heaven, an alien frisbee the size of Ringworld, powered and moved by it's sun.
[17:58] #knownspace> Jim: Pa has more nuclear and less coal than WV
[17:58] #knownspace> senax: if we would get cracking on breeder reactors, and maybe thorium, we'd have plenty of electricity to last until we get fusion figured out.
[17:58] #knownspace> NickE: cool shit
[17:58] #knownspace> Lensman: I could be wrong, but I don't think Japan will use coal. They would have to import it all. I think they will build a new generation of safer nuclear plants. Too bad that China is the only country with a pilot project to develop a Generation IV thorium nuclear plant. Supposedly much safer and can be run in such a way that it produces almost no material usable for nuclear weapons.
[17:58] #knownspace> George: Earth sends a ship to check it out. Hilarity unsues. ;-)
[17:58] #knownspace> George: True, Jim, but the coal folks are pushing their agenda lately.
[17:59] #knownspace> George: Hilarity Ensues. :-P
[18:01] #knownspace> AlexA: Coming in late to nuke discussion: hopefully Jaoan won't derail new build in uk
[18:01] #knownspace> AlexA: Japan^
[18:01] #knownspace> Lensman: Japan is resource poor. That has been a challenge for them. It's why they became aggressors in WW II-- they needed steel and oil. That problem has not disappeared. They have done well in concentrating on industries that are not energy-intensive, such as electronics. But all that steel in Japanese cars has to be imported, or at least the ore does. And with the reduction in their grid power, I...
[18:01] #knownspace> Lensman: ...expect they'll have to shut down all their domestic steel mills, and rely 100% on imported steel.
[18:01] #knownspace> AlexA: But coal will be a large chunk for some time
[18:02] #knownspace> AlexA: Is carbon capture on coal
[18:03] #knownspace> AlexA: .. Plants practical?
[18:03] #knownspace> Lensman: Japan has a lot of nuclear power precisely because they do *not* have a lot of domestic coal. That problem won't change just because people are frightened of nuclear power. Japan is more centrally controlled than the USA, less democratic. I suspect the leaders will push forward with building new nuclear plants despite public fears.
[18:03] #knownspace> George: Japan needs power now, and yeah, not coal, but I read a bit ago that they were going to use older non-nuke plants of some sort. Can't find the reference now, of course.
[18:04] #knownspace> AlexA: Aparently building of a new nuke plant at the problem site in Japan was due to start in 2012
[18:04] #knownspace> Jim: The newer plants will not have the problems that the Sendai reactors had.
[18:04] #knownspace> Lensman: Alex: No one has demonstrated a practical system for carbon capture in a coal-fired plant. "Clean coal"... maybe they can demonstrate it in a lab, but they can't make a commercially viable system. Maybe they will figure out how, but frankly I doubt it.
[18:05] #knownspace> George: I expect the Japanese people will still be less fearful about nuclear power than those in the west might be. We might not get some plants built now, but they'll build more, and better.
[18:05] #knownspace> AlexA: .wik carbon capture
[18:05] #knownspace> Outsider: "Carbon capture and storage (CCS), alternatively referred to as carbon capture and sequestration, is a means of mitigating the contribution of fossil fuel emissions to global warming." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_capture
[18:06] #knownspace> Lensman: It's just a different culture. In the west, "The squeaky wheel gets the grease." In Japan, "The nail that sticks up gets hammered down."
[18:06] #knownspace> Jim: There have been some reasonable proposals for CCS.
[18:07] #knownspace> George: Very true, Lens.
[18:07] #knownspace> Lensman: "Reasonable" in engineering terms, yes. "Reasonable" in economic terms? Actually cost-competitive with existing grid power suppliers? I don't think so. Or at least, no one has yet built such a plant.
[18:08] #knownspace> SolBelter: take care, all
[18:09] #knownspace> SolBelter: have a good weekend
[18:09] #knownspace> Lensman: Bye, SB.
[18:09] #knownspace> George: My turn to have to go to the grocery store. It's been fun, as always. See you folks on the list!
[18:09] #knownspace> Jim: Appalachian Power says that the proposals are reasonable provided that the federal government can guarantee a consistent regulatory environment.
[18:11] #knownspace> Jim: The proposed technology for CCS uses the same techniques employed to remove SOx and NOx from the smokestacks.
[18:11] #knownspace> senax: I need to go to the store too...might stop back later. Bye!
[18:11] #knownspace> Jim: bye senax
[18:13] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, I would be very... *extremely* happy to be proven wrong on "clean coal". But so far, it seems to be "greenwashing" by the coal and power industries.
[18:15] #knownspace> Lensman: We have a very large amount of domestic coal in the USA, and it would be nice to be able to use it for power without making a significant amount of pollution.
[18:16] #knownspace> Lensman: But the regulatory environment is totally screwed up. Utilities have no incentive to make their power plants more efficient, because they are required by regulation to pass all the savings along to their customers. (Insert Libertarian rant about gov't regulations here.)
[18:20] AlexA has joined #knownspace
[18:21] #knownspace> Jim: The use of wind energy actually increases the demand for coal/natural gas electric generation because you need a plant that can be quickly turned on when the wind is not blowing.
[18:23] #knownspace> Jim: Did EML show up when my internet was down?
[18:23] #knownspace> NickE: gotta head off
[18:24] #knownspace> Jim: bye
[18:25] #knownspace> Jim: CCS is possible when using coal to make gasoline
[18:26] #knownspace> Lensman: No, EML has not shown up today.
[18:29] #knownspace> SeanS: I sent both Larry and Ed a chat notice.
[18:30] #knownspace> SeanS: was cooking dinner for the gf
[18:30] #knownspace> Jim: UK and UConn play tonight
[18:30] #knownspace> SeanS: yepper
[18:33] #knownspace> SeanS: I dont know which way it will go.
[18:34] #knownspace> Jim: VCU and Butler are tied
[18:34] #knownspace> Jim: @ 15
[18:36] #knownspace> SeanS: got it on
[18:36] #knownspace> SeanS: i am halfway hoping that VCU goes ahead and wins the title
[18:37] #knownspace> SeanS: talk about the ultimate underdog story
[18:41] #knownspace> Jim: the spectre of freshman stars playing one year in NCAA and then going to the NBA has created parity
[18:43] #knownspace> SeanS: yeah, i think the nba should set up a rule like the nfl... cant come in till you are 20.
[18:44] #knownspace> Jim: I like parity though.
[18:44] #knownspace> SeanS: i dont have time to learn the team member's names. ;)
[18:56] #knownspace> Jim: I think that one and done also probably improve the players' grades because those who did not want to be in college only stay a year
[18:57] #knownspace> ronn: But does it improve their chances of supporting themselves once their career is over?
[18:59] #knownspace> SeanS: that depends more on their maturity than anything else.
[19:00] #knownspace> SeanS: I understand going early... one wrong landing and the basketball career is over
[19:02] #knownspace> Jim: Da'Sean Butler in the WVU-Duke game last year probably destroyed his future career.
[19:02] #knownspace> Jim: Hippy!
[19:02] #knownspace> Hippy: Jim!
[19:04] #knownspace> SeanS: tis ok... it started out really slow
[19:04] #knownspace> Hippy: Did Larry say much?
[19:04] #knownspace> SeanS: quite a bit actually
[19:05] #knownspace> Hippy: Dang
[19:05] #knownspace> SeanS: i will up the log to Mark in the morning
[19:05] #knownspace> Hippy: Oh, well, I suppose I can read the log
[19:05] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah, excellent
[19:05] #knownspace> Hippy: So, this Wok World, is that going to feature in a story or something?
[19:05] #knownspace> SeanS: i think I am a month or two behind. been really busy
[19:06] #knownspace> SeanS: Bowl of Heaven
[19:06] #knownspace> Hippy: Oh, that's the title? Good
[19:06] #knownspace> Jim: BOH is a novel co-written by Larry and Greg Benford
[19:06] #knownspace> Hippy: Holy..now that would be something to read!
[19:09] #knownspace> SeanS: Sounds very interesting
[19:11] #knownspace> SeanS: anybody have some multi TB drives they want to just give me? I am going to start downloading 1080p movies.
[19:11] #knownspace> Hippy: If I had any the postage would be phenomenal to get them there
[19:11] #knownspace> SeanS: true
[19:12] #knownspace> Hippy: And you have reminded me to check my TV later to see if it really is getting HD broadcasts
[19:12] #knownspace> ronn: No. But next month AT&T is supposed to put a 150 GB/month cap on what up to now has been unlimited access.
[19:12] #knownspace> SeanS: that sucks. i would bust that cap in a week and a half
[19:13] #knownspace> Hippy: Yep. See how information is getting harder to get? On Friday I had to go the library, for God's sake!
[19:13] #knownspace> SeanS: actually I think my max giganews download in a month was around 160 gig but that doesnt include anything else.
[19:15] #knownspace> SeanS: i picked up a WD TV live and it is what I have been looking for for some time. plays any file on your network in up to 1080p (depends on the file of course) and dolby digital. it has replaced my dvd player and made a blue ray player irrelevant
[19:16] #knownspace> Hippy: Hmm. Now that sounds interestng
[19:17] #knownspace> SeanS: was only 119 bucks
[19:17] #knownspace> ronn: Yeah, after email (the new AP style guide says there's no linger a hyphen) and data files and watching a few TV shows I can't get here any other way, a lot of that is probably gone. I dunno if there will be any way to get more or if so if it will be affordable.
[19:17] #knownspace> Hippy: That's about $11.52 AUD :)
[19:18] #knownspace> SeanS: http://www.wdc.com/en/products/products.aspx?id=330
[19:28] #knownspace> Hippy: I've just noticed it's 7:30 on the Atlantic coast. No wonder it's all quiet out there
[19:29] #knownspace> SeanS: its also final four basketball
[19:30] #knownspace> SeanS: a little bit of spring is in the air. there was more turnout today than I expected
[19:31] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah, yes, the basketball.
[19:32] #knownspace> Hippy: Of course, if there were footy on right now you wouldn't be seeing my typing
[19:32] #knownspace> SeanS: footy being aussie rules football?
[19:33] #knownspace> SeanS: this pc sits in front of the tv. type and watch at the same time
[19:34] #knownspace> Hippy: Yep
[19:35] #knownspace> Hippy: Yeah, you're right. I would listen to the broadcast and type, but there's no footy till this afternoon
[19:36] #knownspace> SeanS: might not be any nfl football here this year
[19:40] #knownspace> Jim: there is always the CFL
[19:42] #knownspace> SeanS: I dont think my tv gets that.
[19:43] #knownspace> Jim: I wonder if there are people in the US who BitTorrent CFL games?
[19:43] #knownspace> SeanS: i stream steelers games when they are not on in my area but thats a bit different
[19:51] #knownspace> Hippy: No NFL? Is there some strike on or something?
[19:52] #knownspace> SeanS: yeah... players want more cash
[19:52] #knownspace> Jim: The players contract expired recently, and the players and owners cannot agree to a deal.
[19:52] #knownspace> SeanS: what jim said
[19:52] #knownspace> Hippy: Fair enough, too Nobody tunes in to watch owners wrangling over contracts
[19:52] #knownspace> Hippy: . . .although that would be faster-paced
[19:53] #knownspace> Jim: The owners are claiming that their business is not doing very well and that the players need to give up some money.
[19:54] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, they're crap mangers, then. Their business should be booming since there's more live sport on TV these days
[19:55] #knownspace> Hippy: The Australian Football League are seriously saying they'll get a billion dollars ($US1500000000000000000.00) in 2014 for the TV rights
[19:56] #knownspace> SeanS: dang... what the fuck is the exchange rate?
[19:56] #knownspace> Hippy: So NFL should at least be getting a proportionate amount
[19:57] #knownspace> Hippy: It's about $AU1.00 = $US1.03 at the moment
[19:57] #knownspace> Hippy: I'm just milking the fact that our dollar is higher than yours for the first time since 1982
[19:57] #knownspace> SeanS: well, you just typed out like 1.5 jilliion dollars
[19:59] #knownspace> Hippy: They had a graph on TV the other night that showed that our dollar, and our pound before 1966, has usually been around $US2.50 and it's only in recent year that it's dropped back to parity
[19:59] #knownspace> SeanS: I stopped counting at a billion and there were like 10 more 0's in there
[19:59] #knownspace> Hippy: Ten years ago it was only worth fifty-eight cents US
[20:00] #knownspace> Hippy: It was fifteen quintillion
[20:00] #knownspace> SeanS: lol
[20:00] #knownspace> Hippy: Worse than Zimbabwe used to be
[20:01] #knownspace> Hippy: They used to have a note there, $ZWD 100 trillion, worth about $US150
[20:01] #knownspace> Jim: Yes, I am going to watch TV now. I will see you all later.
[20:01] #knownspace> Hippy: But then they revalued their currency
[20:01] #knownspace> Hippy: Seeya, Jim
[20:02] #knownspace> SeanS: i dont think mexico ever got that bad
[20:02] #knownspace> Hippy: And it's 10AM here so I might adjourn myself and sort the garden out
[20:02] #knownspace> SeanS: thats my job tomorrow
[20:02] #knownspace> SeanS: going to be mid 70's F
[20:02] #knownspace> Hippy: See you all next month!
[20:02] #knownspace> SeanS: later dude
[20:03] #knownspace> Hippy: Don't forget to post thosxe logs!
[20:03] #knownspace> SeanS: i will
[20:03] #knownspace> SeanS: i send them... mark posts them
[20:23] #knownspace> ronn: Well, since everyone seems to be leaving . . . see ya on the list . . .
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[07:28] #knownspace> HAL9000: *** the doctor has just logged into the system.
[07:28] #knownspace> HAL9000: *** the doctor has just disconnected from the system.
[07:28] #knownspace> HAL9000: *** SYSOP has just logged into the system.
[07:29] HAL9000 has joined #knownspace
[07:29] #knownspace> HAL9000: *** the doctor has just logged into the system.
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[13:57] NickE has joined #knownspace
[14:00] #knownspace> NickE: earlyish
[14:00] Jim has joined #knownspace
[14:09] #knownspace> NickE: evenin
[14:22] ronn has joined #knownspace
[14:23] #knownspace> NickE: hi Ronn
[14:23] #knownspace> ronn: Hello! Doesn't look very busy atm . . .
[14:23] #knownspace> NickE: no
[14:23] #knownspace> NickE: I may be distracted as The Last Goon Show of All is on the tV right now :-)
[14:26] #knownspace> ronn: OK, I'll just hang on and see if things pick up.
[14:29] #knownspace> NickE: k
[14:46] #knownspace> SeanS: Hi, guys. Just got back from the grocery
[14:46] #knownspace> NickE: hi
[14:47] #knownspace> NickE: eating
[14:47] #knownspace> SeanS: We saw a good looking recipe on the food network earlier. going to try it out later
[14:48] #knownspace> SeanS: shrimp and mushrooms with a home made old bay type seasoning.
[14:59] #knownspace> Jim: hello
[14:59] #knownspace> SeanS: hiya
[15:02] #knownspace> NickE: ah, back
[15:03] #knownspace> NickE: yum
[15:03] #knownspace> NickE: shrimp and mushroom sound good
[15:04] #knownspace> SeanS: let me find the link
[15:04] #knownspace> SeanS: http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/rachael-ray/shrimp-and-shrooms-with-s...
[15:04] #knownspace> NickE: just had hoem made pepperoni meatballs and spaghetti
[15:07] #knownspace> NickE: mm, sounds good
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[15:10] #knownspace> NickE: no ign of Larry
[15:10] #knownspace> NickE: sign even
[15:11] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry usually doesn't show up until about 1 PM Pacific Time
[15:11] #knownspace> NickE: I missd the last 2 chats, anything interesting?
[15:12] #knownspace> NickE: Ah and we've just gone to BST, so makes sense
[15:12] #knownspace> NickE: hi Lens
[15:12] #knownspace> Lensman: I'm sure there was, but I just got up from a nap and brain is too fuzzy to remember.
[15:13] #knownspace> Lensman: Hi, Nick
[15:13] #knownspace> Lensman: BST?
[15:14] #knownspace> SeanS: British Standard Time I would guess
[15:14] #knownspace> NickE: british summer time (= daylight savings)
[15:14] #knownspace> Lensman: Ah.
[15:14] #knownspace> SeanS: close
[15:14] #knownspace> Lensman: Yeah, I just read about Summer Time recently, didn't know the acronym.
[15:14] #knownspace> NickE: There's talk of moving away from GMT altogether. Bloody daft idea
[15:15] #knownspace> NickE: seeings as Greenwich is the bloody meridian
[15:16] #knownspace> NickE: so we'd be on BST all winter as well!
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[15:16] #knownspace> NickE: Hi Larry!
[15:16] #knownspace> Larry: Hello.
[15:16] #knownspace> Larry: sorry I'm late. got distracted.
[15:17] #knownspace> NickE: so was I...by The Goon Show :-)
[15:17] #knownspace> SeanS: Hi Larry.
[15:19] #knownspace> Larry: I'm sending a first draft of THE BOLD OF HEAVEN to our editor and some readers. Can't figure how to send the associate Don Davis paintings.
[15:19] #knownspace> NickE: So, Ceres, lots of water maybe. How would that fit in withe Belter civilisation? (fairly well I'd have thought)
[15:19] #knownspace> NickE: Bowl of Heaven? Yay!!
[15:20] #knownspace> Larry: Water on/in Ceres does sound convenient.
[15:21] #knownspace> NickE: Bowl is with Greg Benford?
[15:22] #knownspace> Lensman: Yah! indeed!
[15:23] #knownspace> Lensman: Nick: But you're looking at it wrong. Since you Brits own Greenwich, the standard time is whatever time y'all say it is!
[15:23] #knownspace> NickE: mind you, I'm very behind in my reading lately, so should be out by the time I'm back up to date :-)
[15:24] #knownspace> Lensman: I presume everyone has read /Betrayer of Worlds/ by now. ;-)
[15:24] #knownspace> NickE: well true, but some in Govt want us to go continental time permanently
[15:24] #knownspace> NickE: ah.....like I said, *very* behind
[15:25] #knownspace> NickE: I'll just stick my fingers in my ears s it were :-)
[15:26] #knownspace> Lensman: Nick: Just remind 'em that Semtek works much better than than the gunpowder Guy Fawkes had! ;-)
[15:26] #knownspace> Larry: Yeah, Bowl is with Greg Benford. He's traveling right now, while I polish and send the book.
[15:27] #knownspace> NickE: shiny. How long ago was it that the idea first came up.? I certainly recall it being discussed here quite some time back
[15:27] #knownspace> NickE: It was Wok WOrld for a while :-)
[15:28] #knownspace> Lensman: I think "Bowl of Heaven" probably will look better on the dust jacket. :)
[15:28] #knownspace> Larry: It's taken awhile, yes. Greg fizzes with ideas and implications. That's why the book fissioned. We've finished volume one--until an editor tells us it needs fixing.
[15:29] #knownspace> NickE: agreed
[15:29] #knownspace> Lensman: "Wok World" sounds like a Terry Pratchett title. (And may be someday!)
[15:29] #knownspace> NickE: oh, more than one. Excellent
[15:30] #knownspace> Larry: We commissioned Don Davis paintings. They're wonderful. Will serve as covers, I think.
[15:30] #knownspace> NickE: Sounds good
[15:31] #knownspace> Lensman: Don Davis did a cover for one Del Rey edition of /Ringworld/.
[15:31] #knownspace> NickE: ah
[15:31] #knownspace> NickE: I knew the name
[15:31] #knownspace> Larry: When Ringworld was new, a local fan wrote "Cupworld". Half a Dyson sphere. Spaceport in the handle. Night supplied by the shadows of great orbiting teabags.
[15:32] #knownspace> NickE: LOL
[15:33] #knownspace> Lensman: LOL
[15:33] #knownspace> NickE: Beware teh coming of the cosmic digestive!!
[15:34] #knownspace> NickE: Hot Teaspoon of Inquiry?
[15:34] #knownspace> SeanS: heh
[15:34] #knownspace> Lensman: And the sequel, no doubt, was "Cupandsaucerworld
[15:34] #knownspace> Larry: :)
[15:35] #knownspace> NickE: brb
[15:36] #knownspace> Lensman: In which the author details the necessity for a saucer below the cup, to catch and recycle liquid spilled over the edge of the Cup.
[15:38] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, if there was ever a time in which the apocryphal Ancient Chinese saying was appropriate, "May you live in interesting times" seems to fit recent days!
[15:38] #knownspace> ronn: So "Cupworld" was built by right-wingers?
[15:39] #knownspace> Lensman: Nonsense. For those living on the opposite side of the Cup, it was built by left-wingers. And hence the source of religious heresy.
[15:40] #knownspace> NickE: :-)
[15:41] #knownspace> ronn: Re BoW: I'm trying to access the library's on-line site to see about requesting it (I haven't been able to get there recently but I need to go early next week if for no other reason than to make copies of some papers I have to get in the mail) but their system is s_l_o_w and inefficient and hard-to-use sometimes . . .
[15:41] #knownspace> Larry: I was certain that there would be no hurricanes on the Ringworld. Greg is sure there will be on the Bowl. You guys can't see Don's picture, so I've got no argument.
[15:41] #knownspace> Lensman: (Psst! Those godless left-handle-worshippers don't even believe in the Great Cosmic Teapot!)
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[15:42] #knownspace> NickE: wb
[15:43] #knownspace> Larry: Great Cosmic Teapot is a terrifying implication.
[15:43] #knownspace> ronn: "The opposite side" = the outside?
[15:43] #knownspace> NickE: I imagine the weather patterns would be...interesting
[15:45] #knownspace> Larry: Yeah, Greg's put in some horrifying weather. It's his structure, so he wins that--and the weather is very pretty.
[15:46] #knownspace> NickE: I bet
[15:46] #knownspace> Lensman: Assuming the Bowl is rotating, then it does seem to me you'd get wind patterns from that. Moving outward from the center would give you vectors from the Coriolis force, altho if it were really enormous-- which I presume it is-- then the amount of velocity change would be much smaller than on earth. But feedback effects from temperature changes might drive hurricanes? Or not?
[15:47] #knownspace> NickE: I expect so, a hurricane is a heat engine essentially
[15:47] #knownspace> Lensman: The existence of a watch implies a watchmaker. Doesn't the existence of a Cosmic Teacup imply the existence of a Cosmic Teapot? ;-)
[15:48] #knownspace> NickE: I imagine a lot would depend on how/if day night/seasonal cycles are simulated
[15:49] #knownspace> NickE: Well there is that. And by implication the existence of the background teatray
[15:49] #knownspace> Lensman: By "the opposite side" I meant those on the other side of the inhabited area inside the Cup. But I'm not sure we're speaking the same language-- I'm not really sure what you meant by "right-winger", Ronn.
[15:50] #knownspace> ronn: Okay, at last, _Betrayer_ is on request from the local library. They seem to have 5 copies in the system, 2 of which are out, so maybe all it will take is for them to take one of the others off the shelf and get it to the local branch.
[15:50] #knownspace> Lensman: I thought perhaps you were referring the the cup handle being oriented for a right-handed God?
[15:50] #knownspace> Larry: We did without night. Just dawned on me: it's like Asimov's "Nightfall".
[15:51] #knownspace> NickE: ooh. Interesting
[15:51] #knownspace> ronn: Lens: Iit is surrounded by teabags . . . ;P
[15:51] #knownspace> NickE: Does night fall (no don't tell me!)
[15:51] #knownspace> Lensman: Doing without night certainly simplifies things.
[15:52] #knownspace> Lensman: Ronn: Oh. Duh.
[15:52] #knownspace> ronn: Nick: Is that "the background tea-tray" or "the background teat-ray"?
[15:52] #knownspace> NickE: <groan>
[15:52] #knownspace> NickE: :-)
[15:52] #knownspace> Larry: I can't think of a way to bring night to the Bowl without horrific destruction.
[15:53] #knownspace> NickE: it's all to do with teabag string theory
[15:53] #knownspace> ronn: Night falls, then dawn breaks. It's hard to get any sleep with all that noise.
[15:53] #knownspace> Lensman: "Night fell. *Thump*"
[15:54] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry: What is the source of light in the Bowl?
[15:54] #knownspace> NickE: just getting a beer brb
[15:55] #knownspace> Lensman: Just city lights, or a central artificial sun, or what?
[15:55] #knownspace> ronn: Lens: The source of light in the teacup is a tea light, of course.
[15:55] #knownspace> Larry: The Bowl has a red dwarf star above its focus.
[15:56] #knownspace> Larry: More I dare not say.
[15:56] #knownspace> Jim: I missed some of the discussion because the snow caused my internet to go out. How large is the bowl? What is its shape?
[15:56] #knownspace> Jim: I missed some of the discussion because the snow caused my internet to go out. How large is the bowl? What is its shape?
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[15:56] #knownspace> NickE: er bowl shape?
[15:57] #knownspace> NickE: star above the focus...ok hadn't thought of that
[15:57] #knownspace> Jim: If the bowl has a focus, is it parabolic in shape?
[15:58] #knownspace> NickE: it would still have a focus if it was half a sphere wouldn't it?
[15:58] #knownspace> NickE: but fair question
[15:58] #knownspace> Larry: Bowl is not really a half-sphere. It looks like a wok with a rim, or a Ringworld with a lid. Mirror in the lid. Live on the rim.
[15:59] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, if you have a building material as strong as, say, /scrith/, then make a pole in the middle of the bowl, then suspend shadow squares from wires connected to the pole. Rotate them around the pole in symmetrically balanced pairs. But ghod help them if one comes loose, or if the pair slows its rotation down enough to drag the surface of the bowl...
[15:59] #knownspace> Larry: The morrors focus on the red sun's pole. A flare acts as a rocket, firing through a hole in the wok.
[16:00] #knownspace> NickE: whoa!
[16:00] #knownspace> NickE: </keannu>
[16:00] #knownspace> Jim: Traveling in style!
[16:00] #knownspace> SeanS: heh
[16:00] #knownspace> NickE: so it's drivable
[16:01] #knownspace> Lensman: People are not living on the surface of the Bowl itself? I'm not getting the picture.
[16:01] #knownspace> Larry: Greg likes the term "shipstar".
[16:01] #knownspace> NickE: oh I like that too
[16:01] #knownspace> ronn: The focus of a spherical mirror would be at the center. An ellipsoidal mirror would have two foci (at the foci of the ellipse which was rotated to form the ellipse).
[16:02] #knownspace> Lensman: "Shipstar" is very evocative.
[16:04] #knownspace> NickE: ah... so folk live on the (rotating) rim like a RW- the bowl itself is part of the drive system/environment controls
[16:05] #knownspace> NickE: or am I not getting it? (Don't recall how far teh discussion ewent years back or how much teh idea has evolved since)
[16:06] #knownspace> Lensman: The rim is oriented parallel to the axis of the bowl? As in /Ringworld/? And not perpendicular to the axis, as one would expect with a cooking wok?
[16:06] #knownspace> ronn: So from the outside it looks like a giant flying saucer?
[16:08] #knownspace> Lensman: I'm completely confused, as I thought people were living on the inside surface of the Bowl.
[16:08] #knownspace> Larry: something like a flying saucer, yeah.
[16:08] #knownspace> NickE: cool
[16:08] #knownspace> NickE: I think that was possibly part of the original idea maybe
[16:09] #knownspace> Larry: It's a Ringworld with a lid, by the time we finished fiddling. Add low-grav habitats near the hole. And it flies.
[16:10] #knownspace> Jim: dimensions?
[16:10] #knownspace> Lensman: But if the inhabitants see the Bowl *above* the world they live in, then the term "Bowl of Heaven" is more descriptive, and not as abstract as I thought.
[16:10] #knownspace> NickE: so this is sort of a Ringworld Plus? More Dyson sphere like...ah so folk do live on teh bowl inner surface
[16:11] #knownspace> NickE: Big. But RW big? Or just damn huge :-)
[16:11] #knownspace> Larry: We left the dimensions soft. It's Ringworld size if you extend the rim past a million miles.
[16:12] #knownspace> Lensman: With a red dwarf star, the diameter can be smaller and still have liquid water.
[16:13] #knownspace> Lensman: I mean, a habitat with liquid water. The temperature zone for earth-like life.
[16:14] #knownspace> NickE: So could you extend the living room by adding to the rim height? (like you'd need to but in theory)
[16:14] #knownspace> Larry: Notice that a lot of sunlight is coming from the flare--and that has a temperature control. (Otherwise, red light doesn't get you plants.)
[16:15] #knownspace> Lensman: Oho! I was assuming plants adapted for far-red radiation. So they can have something approaching an earth-like ecosystem, then.
[16:15] #knownspace> NickE: Ah, so it's always on the move? How long does your fuel last? or do you just hook up wth a new dwarfstar onec you're done?
[16:16] #knownspace> Larry: Yes, Nick. The Ringworld's million-mile width always was negotiable. In practice you could acquire more mass.
[16:16] #knownspace> NickE: And how do you slow down? Might nd up in Tau zero territory otherwise if the star lasts
[16:16] #knownspace> NickE: just put on an extension :-)
[16:17] #knownspace> NickE: makes sense when you think on that scale
[16:17] #knownspace> Lensman: "Model homes now open for tours in our new expansion." ;-)
[16:19] #knownspace> Lensman: Depending on how good the control is, they could balance the flare with a second flare on the opposite side of the sun. That will still give you the light, but not the acceleration. Or even deceleration, if the opposing flare is stronger.
[16:19] #knownspace> NickE: I guess if teh flare can be tightly controlled (pretty much a given), you could make it last a long time
[16:19] #knownspace> Larry: The Bowl isn't traveling fast. Friction with the interstellar environment is high.
[16:20] #knownspace> Lensman: And I don't think a couple of flares is gonna deplete the stellar mass that quickly. I would expect the lifespan to be not much shorter than a normal red dwarf, which is very long indeed, even measured in billions of years.
[16:20] #knownspace> NickE: I guess it would be at that with that area presented to the direction of travel
[16:20] #knownspace> Larry: The builders may not plan to slow down.
[16:20] #knownspace> Jim: Does the drag equation from elementary fluid mechanics work in the interstellar medium?
[16:21] #knownspace> NickE: Grand tour, non stop...
[16:23] #knownspace> Larry: Drag would be hard to estimate.
[16:23] #knownspace> NickE: and would vary depending on what regions of space you travelled through
[16:24] #knownspace> NickE: between galactic arms, velocity would increase for a given thrust
[16:24] #knownspace> NickE: assuming the spaces are mostly empty
[16:25] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, we have observed shock waves in gas/dust clouds near... I forget. Supernovae? New stars in stellar "nurseries"? Shock waves in the interstellar medium were mentioned in /Fleet of Worlds/, and that idea seems to be based on phenomenon astronomers have actually observed.
[16:25] #knownspace> NickE: which certainly implies many areas are relatiely dense
[16:26] #knownspace> Lensman: If they can't stop, that makes me wonder if there is any purpose to the journey. Is it indeed sight-seeing? That would imply very long-lived inhabitants. Or much time spent in stasis/frozen sleep.
[16:26] #knownspace> NickE: I imagine fluid dynamics would apply at least broadly to go back to Jim's comment
[16:28] #knownspace> NickE: Or just an ideological quirk of the builders..lets face it, to build something on that scale you have to have a strong motivation if you are not already god like
[16:29] #knownspace> Lensman: Heh. What story was it where they kept building ever more powerful computers to ask the question, "Is there a God?" Finally the answer came: "There is now."
[16:30] #knownspace> NickE: mm not sure
[16:30] #knownspace> NickE: Asimov?
[16:31] #knownspace> Lensman: A rather obvious ending, but I suppose someone had to write that story sometime.
[16:31] #knownspace> Lensman: Might have been Asimov, yah.
[16:31] #knownspace> NickE: mm, no, teh Multivac on ended a bit differently
[16:31] #knownspace> NickE: I think
[16:31] #knownspace> NickE: been a long time since I read those
[16:32] #knownspace> Larry: The God story was by Sheckley. "Now there is a God."
[16:32] #knownspace> NickE: ah, thansk Larry
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[16:32] #knownspace> Lensman: Ah. Indeed, thanks Larry!
[16:32] #knownspace> NickE: yo Belter
[16:32] #knownspace> Lensman: Hi SB!
[16:33] #knownspace> Lensman: We are discussing the implications of /Bowl of Heaven/, formerly known as "Wok World".
[16:33] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry says the first draft has been sent to the publisher.
[16:34] #knownspace> SolBelter: thx
[16:35] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, what I think perhaps is not sufficiently explored in stories of megastructures is why a species or group would be sufficiently motivated to undertake and complete such a mind-blowing project. Might be a more interesting story background if the project was abandoned half-way.
[16:36] #knownspace> Larry: Half a Dyson sphere...half completed. Not our story, but possible fun.
[16:37] #knownspace> NickE: Well, could teh Bowl be exactly that... oh, what Larry said :-)
[16:37] #knownspace> SolBelter: here's Rick Sternbach's Dysonsphere for Pohl and Williamson novel
[16:37] #knownspace> Lensman: We can still argue over who built the Ringworld, and why. That's okay because Larry deliberately left us without an answer from the Omniscient Narrator, merely a suggested answer from Proserpina's story. But even she didn't really address the question of *why*, merely *who*.
[16:38] #knownspace> SolBelter: http://www.munchkinpress.com/cpg149/displayimage.php?album=31&pos=92
[16:38] #knownspace> SolBelter: and at first I thought the builders had abandoned this partway through since Rick sed a cutaway view :)
[16:39] #knownspace> SolBelter: but not mentioned in the novel, so this doesnt count as an abandoned megastructure
[16:40] #knownspace> SolBelter: used a cutaway^
[16:40] #knownspace> Larry: The Bowl is not abandoned. Carefully maintained. Otherwise it falls apart quickly.
[16:42] #knownspace> NickE: figures
[16:43] #knownspace> ronn: Lens: Both. Also near "ordinary" fast moving stars-, e.g. Mira (Link) and alpha Camelopardalis (Link)
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[16:43] #knownspace> ronn: Things are crawling here so I need to restart. brb.
[16:44] #knownspace> Lensman: What happens if civilization breaks down? We can assume the solar flare either stops or stops being at the focus, so light for growing plants fails. Does worse happen? Does the sun drift into contact with the Bowl or the rim?
[16:45] #knownspace> NickE: sorry, just drooling over this: Link
[16:45] #knownspace> Larry: Magnetic generators hold it all in place. If folk stop tending those, all hell breaks loose.
[16:46] #knownspace> George: Another unstable Big Giant Thing, eh?
[16:46] #knownspace> George: Hi Folks, I finally made it!
[16:46] #knownspace> Larry: George: yeah.
[16:46] #knownspace> NickE: Yep. Boring otherwise :-) Hi George
[16:46] #knownspace> Lensman: Or "Enormous Big Thing", to use David Gerrold's phrase.
[16:46] #knownspace> George: Wok World?
[16:46] #knownspace> NickE: heh yeah
[16:46] Hippy has joined #knownspace
[16:46] #knownspace> NickE: yes
[16:46] #knownspace> George: That's what I meant, thanks Lens!
[16:46] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, George. Retitled /Bowl of Heaven/.
[16:46] #knownspace> Hippy: Afternoon, everyone
[16:47] #knownspace> Jim: Hippy!
[16:47] #knownspace> NickE: Evenin
[16:47] #knownspace> Hippy: Jim!
[16:47] #knownspace> George: Bowl of Heaven - I like it.
[16:47] #knownspace> Hippy: How are we all in our respective, cold, cloudy timezones?
[16:48] #knownspace> Jim: snow
[16:48] #knownspace> Hippy: Evenin', Nick
[16:48] #knownspace> NickE: yo
[16:48] #knownspace> NickE: actually spring like here
[16:48] #knownspace> George: Sunny and cool here, but a Enormous Big Storm coming in two days. :-P
[16:48] #knownspace> Hippy: Snow? That's late in the season for snow
[16:48] #knownspace> Lensman: It's 73 F and sunny, here!
[16:49] #knownspace> George: I'm sure this has been gone over, but what does a Bowl of Heaven do for gravity?
[16:49] #knownspace> Hippy: Isn't it good that we're not doing this by snail mail?
[16:49] #knownspace> NickE: spins
[16:49] #knownspace> NickE: oh god yes
[16:49] #knownspace> SolBelter: cloudy but up to 53 in Boston - getting edge of snowstorm further north possibly
[16:49] #knownspace> Lensman: A snail mail chat is an APA. A very different experience.
[16:50] #knownspace> George: Spins, and lower on the Bowl, less gravity? Nice!
[16:50] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, they're saying we're going to have a warm Autumn, so I suppose it's only fair you get a cold Spring
[16:50] #knownspace> SeanS: love the bottle opener, Nick
[16:50] #knownspace> Lensman: I'm not sure this has been addressed. Larry, is the Bowl spun for gravity, like the Ringworld?
[16:50] #knownspace> NickE: Has to be I assume
[16:50] George has joined #knownspace
[16:50] #knownspace> NickE: wb]
[16:50] #knownspace> Hippy: Yes, but what axis does it spin on?
[16:51] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, Larry did say there were low-gravity habitats near the opening (axis) of the Bowl, so I suppose that means it's spun for gravity.
[16:51] #knownspace> Hippy: Is the axis drawn rim to rim of the bowl, or perpendicular to the surface?
[16:52] #knownspace> George: I figured it'd spin like a bowl on a table, open side up.
[16:52] #knownspace> NickE: yes
[16:52] #knownspace> Hippy: Yah, I did too really, but it's worth considering the other option :)
[16:52] #knownspace> George: I would think that'd give higher gravity at the rim.
[16:52] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry said it's Ringworld with a rim. Not sure what that means, but I think he means you take Ringworld, and attach a giant bowl to one side. But it's not a complete hemisphere, it's really more like a wok in proportions.
[16:53] #knownspace> Lensman: Er, sorry. Larry said it's Ringworld with a *lid*.
[16:53] #knownspace> George: Stepped levels down the bowl, like, um, rice paddies, for want of a better example?
[16:53] #knownspace> NickE: could be
[16:54] #knownspace> Lensman: George: No, Larry said most of the lid/bowl is uninhabited.
[16:54] #knownspace> Hippy: Or just a curve. At those scales it would all seem flat
[16:54] #knownspace> George: A smooth bowl might be better, otherwise it's a set of successively (sp?) smaller ringworlds . . .
[16:54] senax has joined #knownspace
[16:54] #knownspace> Jim: like the bench steps on the side of a cut section in a highway
[16:54] #knownspace> NickE: hi Frank
[16:54] #knownspace> senax: Hi everyone
[16:54] #knownspace> Hippy: Water would flow 'up toward the rims
[16:55] #knownspace> Lensman: I was thinking like James White's /Federation/. A Dyson sphere with giant terraces, and the ends have large openings so there's no area of zero-G.
[16:55] #knownspace> George: Unihabited, stet, but what's there? Solar power generators and other such maintenance?
[16:55] #knownspace> Lensman: I mean, I was thinking of that before today. Larry's description is rather different.
[16:56] #knownspace> NickE: red dwarf star above teh focus
[16:57] #knownspace> Lensman: Star has a perpetual flare, and the flare is controlled for temperature, so they can grow plants for food.
[16:57] #knownspace> George: Put one lid on a Ringworld, might as well put another, and you're halfway to Dyson Sphere. :-)
[16:57] #knownspace> NickE: is cool (or hot)
[16:57] #knownspace> Hippy: Sounds like a Dyson Frisbee
[16:58] #knownspace> NickE: lol..pretty close I think
[16:58] #knownspace> George: Does it really need the flare?
[16:58] #knownspace> Hippy: If it's a red dwarf star, it would
[16:58] #knownspace> Hippy: To get a G-type star's light
[16:59] #knownspace> George: Build closer to the star? Might be better than having to maintain that flare . . !
[16:59] #knownspace> Jim: A frisbee with a hole in the center of the top of the frisbee and a red dwarf star just above the focus of the top.
[16:59] #knownspace> George: Wondering what such a permanent artificially caused flare might do to the star over time . . .
[16:59] #knownspace> Hippy: But what about UV and 'green' light etc, to grow Earthlike (or Gummidgy-like) plants?
[17:00] #knownspace> Lensman: I don't know if chlorophyll based plants can grow under a red star. Apparently Larry thinks not.
[17:00] #knownspace> George: The flare would also be a drive engine, yes?
[17:00] #knownspace> Jim: Larry said that the temperature of the flare would be controlled to get the appropriate frequencies of light for green plants.
[17:00] #knownspace> George: Niiiice!
[17:00] #knownspace> Jim: George, yes
[17:01] #knownspace> George: Sweet. I like this place!
[17:01] #knownspace> Lensman: Certainly a red star doesn't have the right frequency for green plants, altho there might be some evolutionary adaptation which would allow leaves to shift the spectrum before the light is absorbed.
[17:01] #knownspace> Hippy: So, what do you do about the wager running towards the high gravity edges of the Bowl?
[17:01] #knownspace> Jim: Will there be evil robots like in Benford's Galactic Center universe?
[17:02] #knownspace> Hippy: There're always evil robots eventually. It's inevitable
[17:02] #knownspace> NickE: lol
[17:02] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, Wok World is rocketed slowly thru the interstellar medium by the perpetual flare of the sun. But it doesn't accelerate because of friction from interstellar gas.
[17:02] #knownspace> George: Galaxy's biggest flying saucer, with a star for an engine. :-D
[17:03] #knownspace> NickE: yep
[17:03] #knownspace> NickE: well, it must accelerate some
[17:03] #knownspace> NickE: depends on flare control and medium density
[17:04] #knownspace> Lensman: I'm sure there's some Law of SF that says every high-tech culture must eventually build Evil Robots. ;-)
[17:04] #knownspace> Hippy: So now you have gravity in two directios
[17:04] #knownspace> NickE: but yeah, it's as aerodynamic as a brick
[17:04] #knownspace> George: Wonders if the interstellar gas would be enough to prevent acceleration. That's a big engine, but it's a bigger surface.
[17:05] #knownspace> NickE: probably a bit of a balancing act thrust/drag
[17:05] #knownspace> senax: You could paint stripes on it. Stripes make anything go faster.
[17:05] #knownspace> NickE: one wonders if "aerodynamic instability" is an issue
[17:05] #knownspace> NickE: wobbles
[17:06] #knownspace> NickE: ooh, nice image
[17:06] #knownspace> George: Evil robots are usually an accident, and a surprise! ;-) Robots built to be evil, like the robotic war machines being researched now, have better safeguards built in!
[17:06] #knownspace> Lensman: The point is that the force of acceleration is balanced by the drag of the interstellar medium. I guess I shouldn't have said there is no acceleration. But Wok World isn't increasing its velocity endlessly, as in /Tau Zero/. It's reached terminal velocity.
[17:06] #knownspace> George: LOL at senax!
[17:06] #knownspace> Jim: the solar wind from the red dwarf star may be enough to compensate for the unaerodynamic shape of the bowl
[17:06] #knownspace> SolBelter: creating compression eddies in interstellar medium...
[17:06] #knownspace> Hippy: The first generation does, but subsequent generations, built by war machines, might have those saeguards built out
[17:07] #knownspace> NickE: Jim: that's a thought
[17:07] #knownspace> SolBelter: hmmm... a frisbee in flight - a 'flying whirled?'
[17:08] #knownspace> Hippy: LOL
[17:08] #knownspace> George: Ha!
[17:08] #knownspace> Hippy: Of course, perhaps we should be thinking of a coracle sailing through water. This is a big Frisbee
[17:08] #knownspace> SolBelter: hence the shockwave
[17:08] #knownspace> NickE: so teh whole system may in fact end up like a massive Dauntles teardrop
[17:09] #knownspace> Lensman: .../Dauntless/ teardrop, I presume you mean.
[17:10] #knownspace> Hippy: Damn, I am being dragged off to breakfast. I shall thus be in lurking mode for an hour or so
[17:10] #knownspace> Lensman: But it's not meant to be streamlined.
[17:10] #knownspace> NickE: if the stellar wind/magnetic field is enough to offset the instability of pushing a bowl through the medium "Flat on"
[17:10] #knownspace> SolBelter: 'were'd they go?' 'Follow the tunnel in the local gas, officer!'
[17:10] #knownspace> NickE: @Lens yes
[17:10] #knownspace> NickE: hehe
[17:11] #knownspace> SolBelter: not a stealth vehicle
[17:11] #knownspace> George: Wondering how noticable this object would be to, say, a civilization like ours?
[17:11] #knownspace> Lensman: It's actively controlled. I presume they can vary the direction of the flare. In fact, they *have* to, to steer it. Otherwise it would eventually collide with another star.
[17:11] #knownspace> George: Hells, we may have seen one already and not recognized it. :-)
[17:12] #knownspace> Jim: WISE could detect the passage of one.
[17:12] #knownspace> SolBelter: 'A monograph on stellar vector changes, possibly indicating navigational intnet.'
[17:12] #knownspace> NickE: heh
[17:12] #knownspace> Lensman: George: If you've read /Fleet of Worlds/, think about the prologue in which the crew of the /Long Pass/ find the Ice World because of a "bow shock wave" in the interstellar medium. The passage of the Bowl would create a similar shock wave, which our telescopes could see.
[17:13] #knownspace> SolBelter: intent^
[17:13] #knownspace> George: Cool.
[17:13] #knownspace> SolBelter: aah, Lensman - good citation
[17:13] #knownspace> SolBelter: i'd forgotten that
[17:13] #knownspace> Lensman: Of course, only if it was close 'nuff.
[17:14] #knownspace> NickE: brb
[17:16] #knownspace> Larry: I'm back from lunch and have been catching up.
[17:17] #knownspace> NickE: wb
[17:19] #knownspace> Larry: You seem to have the Bowl under control. I'd call it Dyson-sphere level civilization.
[17:19] #knownspace> George: Hi Larry. "To your planet, welcome (back)!"
[17:19] #knownspace> NickE: heh
[17:20] #knownspace> NickE: Pretty high end then
[17:20] #knownspace> George: Is this for a work in progress? Can we get a hint of a basic plot?
[17:21] #knownspace> NickE: 1st draft with publishers at last
[17:21] #knownspace> NickE: this has been ongoing for some time
[17:21] #knownspace> George: Wasn't sure how far it had gotten. Cool! Just wondering what's going to befall those nice Bowl folks. ;-)
[17:22] #knownspace> Larry: A solar-system-sized cruise ship must have been what appealed to Greg. Plot? Earth's ship catches up to the Bowl while running short of food/water/air.
[17:22] #knownspace> George: Ah.
[17:23] #knownspace> George: Earth sent a ship after it to investigate? And by the time they get there, they can't head home . . . yet.
[17:23] ronn has joined #knownspace
[17:23] #knownspace> NickE: ah, OK
[17:24] #knownspace> NickE: wb Ronn
[17:24] #knownspace> ronn: Back. Hopefully working better.
[17:25] #knownspace> George: Dyson-level tech . . . so, more advanced then the Ringworld builders when they built the Ring?
[17:25] #knownspace> Larry: Yeah. And they're still in control.
[17:26] #knownspace> George: Yikes. And here come the alien invaders . . . us.
[17:26] #knownspace> George: Fascinating.
[17:26] #knownspace> Larry: Folk, I should go to a grocery store. Fare you well.
[17:26] #knownspace> NickE: bye Larry, thanks fro teh clues :-)
[17:27] #knownspace> George: Oddly, me too, soon. Bye, Larry!
[17:29] #knownspace> George: So what else has been discussed today?
[17:29] #knownspace> SolBelter: aha! A clue about Larry: he isn't de;endent on hydroponics...
[17:29] #knownspace> NickE: heh
[17:30] #knownspace> George: If we knew what store he was going to, we could call and have them do a page: "Larry Niven, please return to the chat for an urgent question!" X-D
[17:30] #knownspace> SolBelter: Here's a Warlock series thought
[17:30] #knownspace> NickE: heh
[17:30] #knownspace> ronn: Nor is he a robot with rechargeable energy cells . . .
[17:30] #knownspace> SolBelter: Burning City was 'Tep's Town'
[17:31] #knownspace> George: Ronn, he could be going for batteries . . .
[17:31] #knownspace> George: Tep's Town - could be!
[17:32] #knownspace> SolBelter: after quake and 'nami, we see ruins of areas run by Tokyo Electric Power Co
[17:32] #knownspace> SolBelter: 'TEP's Towns'
[17:32] #knownspace> ronn: Batteries are also on my list to get next week: we had 2 late-night power outages during the last week (Sat. and Wed.)
[17:32] #knownspace> SolBelter: TEPCO
[17:33] #knownspace> SolBelter: Asia's largest powere co - where else would a fire demon hide through the ages?
[17:33] #knownspace> SolBelter: :)
[17:34] #knownspace> George: Anybody see the NOVA special on Japan this week? Thanks to the tsunami, they have a new salt lake in the mountains. Amazing.
[17:35] #knownspace> George: Fire demon could hide in Hawaaii, with its constant eruptions.
[17:35] #knownspace> SolBelter: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/earth/japan-killer-quake.html
[17:36] #knownspace> George: The NOVA special was really sobering. The relentlesness of it all . . .
[17:36] #knownspace> George: The word "unstoppable" being redefined right before your eyes.
[17:37] #knownspace> NickE: aye. terrifying
[17:38] #knownspace> George: People talk about the ocean or the stars making one feel small. Never did for me, but this did. Man's works laid low by forces that didn't even notice them.
[17:39] #knownspace> SolBelter: some of the helicopter views - water eating land...
[17:39] #knownspace> George: We think we've conquered the planet; not so. If we get in it's way, we are swept aside like nothing.
[17:40] #knownspace> SolBelter: cars being carried along like wood
[17:40] #knownspace> ronn: Boats on roofs . . .
[17:41] #knownspace> George: Car on a hotel roof, giant boats and entire huge buildings swept along . . .
[17:41] #knownspace> SolBelter: and not picturable - whole villages dropped out of com, for hours, days, or forever, now
[17:41] #knownspace> George: The liquifaction scenes were very starnge to see, as well.
[17:41] #knownspace> NickE: the heli shot footage was just...horrific
[17:41] #knownspace> NickE: never seen aything like it
[17:42] #knownspace> SolBelter: 'we're retreating to 2nd floor of town hall' mayor's staff said - days later, cameras see high water mark on clock at top of four story town hall - no staffers
[17:42] #knownspace> George: Couple of places had tsunami walls that might have been sufficient, but nobody expected the very ground level to drop several feet! Made the walls worthless.
[17:43] #knownspace> George: Entire towns just erased.
[17:44] #knownspace> George: "Somebody tell a joke . . !"
[17:44] #knownspace> George: So, seen any good movies lately?
[17:44] #knownspace> SolBelter: you hear the one about the primates who built on the surface of an active world?
[17:44] #knownspace> George: LOL
[17:44] #knownspace> SolBelter: oh, you did ...
[17:45] #knownspace> SolBelter: my grandmother's house was in poor area near rich Sourhhamptons Long Island
[17:46] #knownspace> George: You'd think they'd learn, but no, they keep building in flood plains and earthquake/tsunami areas just as if they own the planet.
[17:46] #knownspace> SolBelter: Rich summer typers rebuilt every 15-20 yrs after their beachside homes toothpicked
[17:46] #knownspace> George: They have a poor area?
[17:46] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, the Japanese have no choice but to build in a Tsunami zone, if they want to remain Japanese.
[17:46] #knownspace> George: Yep, more money than sense. Well, hey, with insurance . . .
[17:47] #knownspace> George: S'truth, Lens.
[17:47] #knownspace> George: They did all they could to prepare, but you can only do so much.
[17:48] #knownspace> SolBelter: George, edge of Southhampton township, not the village was poor[er]Flanders
[17:48] #knownspace> SolBelter: road
[17:48] #knownspace> Lensman: And yeah, some of the shots of the tsunami wave coming in. Tossing cars about as though they were Matchbox cars in a flooded street, ships being crushed under bridges... Indeed, never have I /felt/ the power of nature on a visceral level like that before.
[17:48] #knownspace> George: Well, the data on this is more extensive than any other natural disaster. Hopefully something useful is learned.
[17:49] #knownspace> SolBelter: they lost tens of thousands of lives, not million or two, this time - building codes
[17:49] #knownspace> Lensman: Unfortunately they are getting lots of practice in trying (and sometimes failing) to keep partial meltdowns of nuclear reactors from exploding and venting.
[17:50] #knownspace> George: Much to be learned there as well.
[17:50] #knownspace> SolBelter: too much ...
[17:51] #knownspace> Lensman: Sad to see how much this will affect public perception of nuclear power, just like detailed coverage of airline crashes make people afraid of flying. And the reality is that both airplane travel and nuclear power plants are safer when taken in toto, than the most commonly used alternative-- automobiles and coal-fired plants.
[17:51] #knownspace> George: They've done more than one could expect, and have held the line as best they could. those nuke workers are national heroes.
[17:52] #knownspace> SolBelter: 'us traffic fatalities hit new low - 32,000 people'
[17:52] #knownspace> Lensman: But that's not the "lesson" that people are being taught with all the hyped coverage of the ongoing problems with the nuclear plants. The "lesson" the news media is "teaching" is that nuclear power is too dangerous and cannot be controlled.
[17:52] #knownspace> George: Hell, they're international. This could have been so much worse, if they had cut and run.
[17:52] Jim has joined #knownspace
[17:52] #knownspace> Jim: I'm back
[17:53] #knownspace> Jim: What happend in the past 30 minutes
[17:53] #knownspace> SolBelter: 1950s reactor failure novel
[17:53] #knownspace> SolBelter: talking Japan and insignificence of man's works to nature
[17:54] #knownspace> Lensman: By one estimate, 23,600 fatalities per year from pollution from coal-fired plants in the USA. If we had 10 Chernobyl disasters per year, nuclear would still be better for public health than coal-fired plants! But try to tell the average person that... they think you're crazy.
[17:54] #knownspace> George: Jim: Alien invaders, killer robots, earthquake!
[17:54] #knownspace> SolBelter: [to Jim]
[17:54] AlexA has joined #knownspace
[17:54] #knownspace> SolBelter: ay, ay, it's lex
[17:54] #knownspace> NickE: Hi Alex
[17:54] #knownspace> George: Greetings
[17:55] #knownspace> Lensman: Oops, my math is off. *Four* Chernobyl disasters per year, not 10.
[17:55] #knownspace> AlexA: Late again - forgot it's first Sat!
[17:56] #knownspace> senax: It sucks...we've needed more fission, not less, for a long time now.
[17:56] #knownspace> George: I was a bit late too - had to get some flowers in while the sun was back!
[17:56] #knownspace> NickE: missed intersting stuff on Bowl of Heaven
[17:56] #knownspace> George: Japan will be using coal plants again for a while.
[17:56] #knownspace> SolBelter: i look forward to transcript
[17:56] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, the Bowl of Heaven has some fascinating implications!
[17:56] #knownspace> Jim: nuclear is the only viable replacement for coal
[17:57] #knownspace> George: Try selling that here in Pennsylvania, where coal is a job mine. :-P
[17:57] #knownspace> AlexA: Summary? Or best to read chat transcript?
[17:57] #knownspace> George: Bwol of Heaven, an alien frisbee the size of Ringworld, powered and moved by it's sun.
[17:58] #knownspace> Jim: Pa has more nuclear and less coal than WV
[17:58] #knownspace> senax: if we would get cracking on breeder reactors, and maybe thorium, we'd have plenty of electricity to last until we get fusion figured out.
[17:58] #knownspace> NickE: cool shit
[17:58] #knownspace> Lensman: I could be wrong, but I don't think Japan will use coal. They would have to import it all. I think they will build a new generation of safer nuclear plants. Too bad that China is the only country with a pilot project to develop a Generation IV thorium nuclear plant. Supposedly much safer and can be run in such a way that it produces almost no material usable for nuclear weapons.
[17:58] #knownspace> George: Earth sends a ship to check it out. Hilarity unsues. ;-)
[17:58] #knownspace> George: True, Jim, but the coal folks are pushing their agenda lately.
[17:59] #knownspace> George: Hilarity Ensues. :-P
[18:01] #knownspace> AlexA: Coming in late to nuke discussion: hopefully Jaoan won't derail new build in uk
[18:01] #knownspace> AlexA: Japan^
[18:01] #knownspace> Lensman: Japan is resource poor. That has been a challenge for them. It's why they became aggressors in WW II-- they needed steel and oil. That problem has not disappeared. They have done well in concentrating on industries that are not energy-intensive, such as electronics. But all that steel in Japanese cars has to be imported, or at least the ore does. And with the reduction in their grid power, I...
[18:01] #knownspace> Lensman: ...expect they'll have to shut down all their domestic steel mills, and rely 100% on imported steel.
[18:01] #knownspace> AlexA: But coal will be a large chunk for some time
[18:02] #knownspace> AlexA: Is carbon capture on coal
[18:03] #knownspace> AlexA: .. Plants practical?
[18:03] #knownspace> Lensman: Japan has a lot of nuclear power precisely because they do *not* have a lot of domestic coal. That problem won't change just because people are frightened of nuclear power. Japan is more centrally controlled than the USA, less democratic. I suspect the leaders will push forward with building new nuclear plants despite public fears.
[18:03] #knownspace> George: Japan needs power now, and yeah, not coal, but I read a bit ago that they were going to use older non-nuke plants of some sort. Can't find the reference now, of course.
[18:04] #knownspace> AlexA: Aparently building of a new nuke plant at the problem site in Japan was due to start in 2012
[18:04] #knownspace> Jim: The newer plants will not have the problems that the Sendai reactors had.
[18:04] #knownspace> Lensman: Alex: No one has demonstrated a practical system for carbon capture in a coal-fired plant. "Clean coal"... maybe they can demonstrate it in a lab, but they can't make a commercially viable system. Maybe they will figure out how, but frankly I doubt it.
[18:05] #knownspace> George: I expect the Japanese people will still be less fearful about nuclear power than those in the west might be. We might not get some plants built now, but they'll build more, and better.
[18:05] #knownspace> AlexA: .wik carbon capture
[18:05] #knownspace> Outsider: "Carbon capture and storage (CCS), alternatively referred to as carbon capture and sequestration, is a means of mitigating the contribution of fossil fuel emissions to global warming." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_capture
[18:06] #knownspace> Lensman: It's just a different culture. In the west, "The squeaky wheel gets the grease." In Japan, "The nail that sticks up gets hammered down."
[18:06] #knownspace> Jim: There have been some reasonable proposals for CCS.
[18:07] #knownspace> George: Very true, Lens.
[18:07] #knownspace> Lensman: "Reasonable" in engineering terms, yes. "Reasonable" in economic terms? Actually cost-competitive with existing grid power suppliers? I don't think so. Or at least, no one has yet built such a plant.
[18:08] #knownspace> SolBelter: take care, all
[18:09] #knownspace> SolBelter: have a good weekend
[18:09] #knownspace> Lensman: Bye, SB.
[18:09] #knownspace> George: My turn to have to go to the grocery store. It's been fun, as always. See you folks on the list!
[18:09] #knownspace> Jim: Appalachian Power says that the proposals are reasonable provided that the federal government can guarantee a consistent regulatory environment.
[18:11] #knownspace> Jim: The proposed technology for CCS uses the same techniques employed to remove SOx and NOx from the smokestacks.
[18:11] #knownspace> senax: I need to go to the store too...might stop back later. Bye!
[18:11] #knownspace> Jim: bye senax
[18:13] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, I would be very... *extremely* happy to be proven wrong on "clean coal". But so far, it seems to be "greenwashing" by the coal and power industries.
[18:15] #knownspace> Lensman: We have a very large amount of domestic coal in the USA, and it would be nice to be able to use it for power without making a significant amount of pollution.
[18:16] #knownspace> Lensman: But the regulatory environment is totally screwed up. Utilities have no incentive to make their power plants more efficient, because they are required by regulation to pass all the savings along to their customers. (Insert Libertarian rant about gov't regulations here.)
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[18:21] #knownspace> Jim: The use of wind energy actually increases the demand for coal/natural gas electric generation because you need a plant that can be quickly turned on when the wind is not blowing.
[18:23] #knownspace> Jim: Did EML show up when my internet was down?
[18:23] #knownspace> NickE: gotta head off
[18:24] #knownspace> Jim: bye
[18:25] #knownspace> Jim: CCS is possible when using coal to make gasoline
[18:26] #knownspace> Lensman: No, EML has not shown up today.
[18:29] #knownspace> SeanS: I sent both Larry and Ed a chat notice.
[18:30] #knownspace> SeanS: was cooking dinner for the gf
[18:30] #knownspace> Jim: UK and UConn play tonight
[18:30] #knownspace> SeanS: yepper
[18:33] #knownspace> SeanS: I dont know which way it will go.
[18:34] #knownspace> Jim: VCU and Butler are tied
[18:34] #knownspace> Jim: @ 15
[18:36] #knownspace> SeanS: got it on
[18:36] #knownspace> SeanS: i am halfway hoping that VCU goes ahead and wins the title
[18:37] #knownspace> SeanS: talk about the ultimate underdog story
[18:41] #knownspace> Jim: the spectre of freshman stars playing one year in NCAA and then going to the NBA has created parity
[18:43] #knownspace> SeanS: yeah, i think the nba should set up a rule like the nfl... cant come in till you are 20.
[18:44] #knownspace> Jim: I like parity though.
[18:44] #knownspace> SeanS: i dont have time to learn the team member's names. ;)
[18:56] #knownspace> Jim: I think that one and done also probably improve the players' grades because those who did not want to be in college only stay a year
[18:57] #knownspace> ronn: But does it improve their chances of supporting themselves once their career is over?
[18:59] #knownspace> SeanS: that depends more on their maturity than anything else.
[19:00] #knownspace> SeanS: I understand going early... one wrong landing and the basketball career is over
[19:02] #knownspace> Jim: Da'Sean Butler in the WVU-Duke game last year probably destroyed his future career.
[19:02] #knownspace> Jim: Hippy!
[19:02] #knownspace> Hippy: Jim!
[19:04] #knownspace> SeanS: tis ok... it started out really slow
[19:04] #knownspace> Hippy: Did Larry say much?
[19:04] #knownspace> SeanS: quite a bit actually
[19:05] #knownspace> Hippy: Dang
[19:05] #knownspace> SeanS: i will up the log to Mark in the morning
[19:05] #knownspace> Hippy: Oh, well, I suppose I can read the log
[19:05] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah, excellent
[19:05] #knownspace> Hippy: So, this Wok World, is that going to feature in a story or something?
[19:05] #knownspace> SeanS: i think I am a month or two behind. been really busy
[19:06] #knownspace> SeanS: Bowl of Heaven
[19:06] #knownspace> Hippy: Oh, that's the title? Good
[19:06] #knownspace> Jim: BOH is a novel co-written by Larry and Greg Benford
[19:06] #knownspace> Hippy: Holy..now that would be something to read!
[19:09] #knownspace> SeanS: Sounds very interesting
[19:11] #knownspace> SeanS: anybody have some multi TB drives they want to just give me? I am going to start downloading 1080p movies.
[19:11] #knownspace> Hippy: If I had any the postage would be phenomenal to get them there
[19:11] #knownspace> SeanS: true
[19:12] #knownspace> Hippy: And you have reminded me to check my TV later to see if it really is getting HD broadcasts
[19:12] #knownspace> ronn: No. But next month AT&T is supposed to put a 150 GB/month cap on what up to now has been unlimited access.
[19:12] #knownspace> SeanS: that sucks. i would bust that cap in a week and a half
[19:13] #knownspace> Hippy: Yep. See how information is getting harder to get? On Friday I had to go the library, for God's sake!
[19:13] #knownspace> SeanS: actually I think my max giganews download in a month was around 160 gig but that doesnt include anything else.
[19:15] #knownspace> SeanS: i picked up a WD TV live and it is what I have been looking for for some time. plays any file on your network in up to 1080p (depends on the file of course) and dolby digital. it has replaced my dvd player and made a blue ray player irrelevant
[19:16] #knownspace> Hippy: Hmm. Now that sounds interestng
[19:17] #knownspace> SeanS: was only 119 bucks
[19:17] #knownspace> ronn: Yeah, after email (the new AP style guide says there's no linger a hyphen) and data files and watching a few TV shows I can't get here any other way, a lot of that is probably gone. I dunno if there will be any way to get more or if so if it will be affordable.
[19:17] #knownspace> Hippy: That's about $11.52 AUD :)
[19:18] #knownspace> SeanS: http://www.wdc.com/en/products/products.aspx?id=330
[19:28] #knownspace> Hippy: I've just noticed it's 7:30 on the Atlantic coast. No wonder it's all quiet out there
[19:29] #knownspace> SeanS: its also final four basketball
[19:30] #knownspace> SeanS: a little bit of spring is in the air. there was more turnout today than I expected
[19:31] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah, yes, the basketball.
[19:32] #knownspace> Hippy: Of course, if there were footy on right now you wouldn't be seeing my typing
[19:32] #knownspace> SeanS: footy being aussie rules football?
[19:33] #knownspace> SeanS: this pc sits in front of the tv. type and watch at the same time
[19:34] #knownspace> Hippy: Yep
[19:35] #knownspace> Hippy: Yeah, you're right. I would listen to the broadcast and type, but there's no footy till this afternoon
[19:36] #knownspace> SeanS: might not be any nfl football here this year
[19:40] #knownspace> Jim: there is always the CFL
[19:42] #knownspace> SeanS: I dont think my tv gets that.
[19:43] #knownspace> Jim: I wonder if there are people in the US who BitTorrent CFL games?
[19:43] #knownspace> SeanS: i stream steelers games when they are not on in my area but thats a bit different
[19:51] #knownspace> Hippy: No NFL? Is there some strike on or something?
[19:52] #knownspace> SeanS: yeah... players want more cash
[19:52] #knownspace> Jim: The players contract expired recently, and the players and owners cannot agree to a deal.
[19:52] #knownspace> SeanS: what jim said
[19:52] #knownspace> Hippy: Fair enough, too Nobody tunes in to watch owners wrangling over contracts
[19:52] #knownspace> Hippy: . . .although that would be faster-paced
[19:53] #knownspace> Jim: The owners are claiming that their business is not doing very well and that the players need to give up some money.
[19:54] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, they're crap mangers, then. Their business should be booming since there's more live sport on TV these days
[19:55] #knownspace> Hippy: The Australian Football League are seriously saying they'll get a billion dollars ($US1500000000000000000.00) in 2014 for the TV rights
[19:56] #knownspace> SeanS: dang... what the fuck is the exchange rate?
[19:56] #knownspace> Hippy: So NFL should at least be getting a proportionate amount
[19:57] #knownspace> Hippy: It's about $AU1.00 = $US1.03 at the moment
[19:57] #knownspace> Hippy: I'm just milking the fact that our dollar is higher than yours for the first time since 1982
[19:57] #knownspace> SeanS: well, you just typed out like 1.5 jilliion dollars
[19:59] #knownspace> Hippy: They had a graph on TV the other night that showed that our dollar, and our pound before 1966, has usually been around $US2.50 and it's only in recent year that it's dropped back to parity
[19:59] #knownspace> SeanS: I stopped counting at a billion and there were like 10 more 0's in there
[19:59] #knownspace> Hippy: Ten years ago it was only worth fifty-eight cents US
[20:00] #knownspace> Hippy: It was fifteen quintillion
[20:00] #knownspace> SeanS: lol
[20:00] #knownspace> Hippy: Worse than Zimbabwe used to be
[20:01] #knownspace> Hippy: They used to have a note there, $ZWD 100 trillion, worth about $US150
[20:01] #knownspace> Jim: Yes, I am going to watch TV now. I will see you all later.
[20:01] #knownspace> Hippy: But then they revalued their currency
[20:01] #knownspace> Hippy: Seeya, Jim
[20:02] #knownspace> SeanS: i dont think mexico ever got that bad
[20:02] #knownspace> Hippy: And it's 10AM here so I might adjourn myself and sort the garden out
[20:02] #knownspace> SeanS: thats my job tomorrow
[20:02] #knownspace> SeanS: going to be mid 70's F
[20:02] #knownspace> Hippy: See you all next month!
[20:02] #knownspace> SeanS: later dude
[20:03] #knownspace> Hippy: Don't forget to post thosxe logs!
[20:03] #knownspace> SeanS: i will
[20:03] #knownspace> SeanS: i send them... mark posts them
[20:23] #knownspace> ronn: Well, since everyone seems to be leaving . . . see ya on the list . . .
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