August

[03:58] HAL9000 has joined #knownspace
[06:58] #knownspace> Xenovalent: Let's see how HAL's doing today
[06:58] #knownspace> Xenovalent: !weather 33713
[06:58] #knownspace> HAL9000: Weather info for NORTH KENWOOD KI4RVU, SAINT PETERSBURG, Florida (updated on 6:58 AM EDT on August 04, 2012) -- Temperature: 77.4&degF / 25.2&degC -- Humidity: 86% -- Dew Point: 73&degF / 23&degC -- Wind: NNE at 0.0 mph / 0.0 km/h -- Pressure: 29.99 in / 1015 hPa (Rising) -- Conditions: Clear -- Visibility: 10.0 miles / 16.1 kilometers -- UV: 0 out of 16 -- Clouds: Clear (CLR) : - -- Yesterday's Maximum:
[06:58] #knownspace> HAL9000: 92&degF / 33&degC -- Yesterday's Minimum: 76&degF / 24&degC -- Sunrise: 6:55 AM EDT -- Sunset: 8:17 PM EDT -- Moon Rise: 9:49 PM EDT -- Moon Set: 9:21 AM EDT -- Moon Phase: Waning Gibbous
[09:26] #knownspace> fredskuentz: fine weather for a chat
[09:27] #knownspace> sean: chat?
[09:27] #knownspace> sean: I am thinking coffee and breakfast first. ;)
[09:54] Akiraa has joined #knownspace
[10:14] #knownspace> sean: made coffee THEN julie called and said meet for breakfast. guess I can always nuke it in the morning.
[10:23] #knownspace> fredskuentz: zzzzzzzt
[11:44] #knownspace> sean: western omelet was pretty tasty tho.
[11:44] #knownspace> fredskuentz: what makes a western omelet 'western'?
[11:49] #knownspace> sean: I guess it just gets more western the more stuff you put in it.
[11:50] #knownspace> fredskuentz: lol
[11:50] #knownspace> fredskuentz: so it's what we would call an 'omelette'
[11:50] #knownspace> sean: this one had ham, cheese, onion, green pepper and sausage in it.
[11:50] #knownspace> fredskuentz: the minimums
[11:51] #knownspace> fredskuentz: I thought maybe western omelettes had salsa or something
[11:51] #knownspace> sean: and I added Louisiana hot sauce.
[11:52] #knownspace> fredskuentz: A Denver omelette, also known as a Southwest omelette or Western omelette, is an omelette filled with diced ham, onions, and green bell peppers, though there are many variations on fillings. Often served in the Southwestern United States, this omelette sometimes has a topping of cheese and a side dish of hash browns or fried potatoes.
[11:52] #knownspace> sean: this one had hashbrowns and toast.
[11:53] #knownspace> fredskuentz: sounds like it qualifies
[11:53] #knownspace> sean: now i have to run back to town and pick up something for dinner.
[11:55] #knownspace> fredskuentz: lots of variations
[11:55] #knownspace> fredskuentz: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omelette#Variations
[12:14] #knownspace> sean: yep
[13:01] ronn has joined #knownspace
[13:05] #knownspace> ronn: 06
[13:14] #knownspace> sean: Hi ronn
[13:37] Hippy has joined #knownspace
[13:43] NickE has joined #knownspace
[13:43] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah, Nick
[13:43] #knownspace> NickE: evenin'
[13:43] #knownspace> NickE: Hi Darren
[13:44] #knownspace> Hippy: How's it going?
[13:44] #knownspace> NickE: despite my best intentions and usual inclination not to watch televised sport, am rather enjoying the Olympics on teh whole
[13:45] #knownspace> NickE: and not juts cos we;re doing quite well :-)
[13:45] #knownspace> Hippy: I caught the opening cereony
[13:45] #knownspace> NickE: missed the first chunk as was stuck in teh lab, but wahet I saw was quite neat
[13:45] #knownspace> Hippy: I haven't seen anything else of it.
[13:46] #knownspace> Hippy: God, my typing. I' on a laptop and it's a bastard to try and type anythig prperly
[13:46] #knownspace> NickE: have yiou seen my spelling so far?
[13:47] #knownspace> NickE: not ven had a drink yet :-)
[13:47] #knownspace> Hippy: I've got a refreshig lager to hand at the moment, so watch for further misspellings :(
[13:48] #knownspace> Hippy: Grrr! Can't ven do an emoticon!
[13:48] #knownspace> NickE: Cycling and rowing have been very good. May well have a lager or beer later with dinner
[13:48] #knownspace> NickE: heh
[13:49] #knownspace> NickE: (and yes, GB have been doing very well in sports that involve sitting down :-)
[13:49] #knownspace> Hippy: I'm currently in Florida, justnin case you thought I was haaing a 4AM lager
[13:49] #knownspace> NickE: I did wonder!
[13:49] #knownspace> SeanS: Hi Nick, Darren.
[13:49] Jim has joined #knownspace
[13:49] #knownspace> Hippy: Hi, Sean
[13:50] #knownspace> Hippy: Hi, Jim
[13:50] #knownspace> NickE: HI Sean, Jim and eveyone else already here
[13:50] #knownspace> Jim: Hi everybody!!!
[13:50] #knownspace> SeanS: Hi Jim
[13:50] #knownspace> Hippy: Good to see everone's getting an erly start :
[13:51] #knownspace> Hippy: Jesus, I'm typing like an infinite amount of monkeys with Parkinson's disease
[13:52] #knownspace> NickE: lol
[13:55] #knownspace> SeanS: Jim, sorry about forgetting your notice until this morning.
[13:57] #knownspace> Jim: Can you send automatic e-mails with Gmail? I have not tried to set it up with my account.
[13:57] #knownspace> SeanS: I use thunderbird as a mail client. not really looked at setting up a list. I send them out by hand.
[13:57] #knownspace> Jim: It has been approximately 30 days since I last had a chew of tobacco.
[13:58] #knownspace> Jim: OK
[13:58] #knownspace> Hippy: Well done! Now, if you can stop killing all those hitchhikers. . .
[14:00] #knownspace> SeanS: congrats Jim
[14:01] #knownspace> Jim: I am still using nicotine replacement meds.
[14:01] #knownspace> Jim: The nicotine replacement has prevented the deaths of hitchhikers.
[14:01] #knownspace> Hippy: That can go on fo a while. I had a mate who took eighteen months to et completely off hem
[14:02] #knownspace> Hippy: Off the nictone patches, not dead hitchhikers
[14:02] #knownspace> Hippy: He regarded that as more of a hobby than an addiction
[14:03] #knownspace> Hippy: He subscfibed to the magazines etc
[14:03] #knownspace> SeanS: I stopped smoking @3.5 years ago.
[14:03] #knownspace> NickE: brb
[14:03] #knownspace> ronn: "Dead Hitchikers Quarterly"?
[14:03] #knownspace> Hippy: And I about 50.5 years ago
[14:04] #knownspace> Hippy: Though the passive smoking went on a bit longer
[14:04] #knownspace> SeanS: the first few months, after drinking a few beers, I could "feel" that cigarette between my fingers.
[14:04] #knownspace> Hippy: Yep, ronn, and 'Shallow Grave'
[14:04] #knownspace> ronn: Well, I see in the interim folks have shown up . . .
[14:05] #knownspace> Hippy: I got here early to see if the cnnnection was stable tis time, wich it appears it is
[14:06] #knownspace> Hippy: Like any habit, Sean. I'll reach up to clamp my hat on in a high wind een if I'm not wearing it
[14:07] #knownspace> Hippy: My Dad quit afer 40 years and used to hold a pen beqeen his fingers over his morning coffee and swearing at the paper
[14:07] #knownspace> SeanS: i can see that
[14:08] #knownspace> Jim: Penis Snake:
[14:08] #knownspace> Jim: http://io9.com/5931784/penis-snake-is-neither-penis-nor-snake-but-looks-...
[14:11] #knownspace> SeanS: so basically a flabby eel.
[14:12] #knownspace> Hippy: I resemble that remark'
[14:14] #knownspace> SeanS: yeah right.
[14:15] #knownspace> Hippy: Oh, a sceptic? Well. . .no, let's not delve any futher
[14:17] #knownspace> Hippy: Oh, yeah, I was told the other dya that it is a Federal law here to make the drinking age 21 Federal!
[14:18] #knownspace> SeanS: actually it is not. each state was pressured by the fed to go to 21 and if they didn't they would get no fed highway dollars.
[14:19] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah. . . I wondered how that would work constitutionally, and now I see. Same with us and wearing seatbelts
[14:19] George has joined #knownspace
[14:19] #knownspace> SeanS: hi George
[14:19] #knownspace> Hippy: Hello, George
[14:20] #knownspace> NickE: Hi George
[14:20] #knownspace> SeanS: hey Nick, any news on when Who starts back up?
[14:21] #knownspace> SeanS: bye George
[14:21] #knownspace> ronn: In any case it worked. The drinking age was lowered to 18 or 19 in many states in the 1970s at or around the same time the voting age was lowered to 18 as well, but citing an increase in accidents involving 18-21-year-olds the Feds said that any state that didn't raise it back to 21 wouldn't get any Federal highway money.
[14:21] #knownspace> Hippy: You know who I miss? George
[14:22] #knownspace> NickE: they are trailing it now, so Autumn (Fall)
[14:22] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, it's blooyd stupid. If you can vote, you can drink, surely?
[14:22] #knownspace> SeanS: I saw the trailer.
[14:22] #knownspace> NickE: probably only a few weeks away
[14:22] #knownspace> Hippy: The person I was talkng to said 'You can die for your country, but ou can't drink'
[14:23] #knownspace> Hippy: So she was flabbergasted when I said there is no drinking limit provided you have a meal with your drink (in Victoria, anyway)
[14:27] #knownspace> ronn: The argument for both was that if you can be drafted and sent to die in a rice paddy in SEA, you oughta be able to vote for the folks who decide whether the country should be in a war. And drinking followed. A later argument is that even after the voting and drinking age were lowered to 18 the age people could legally enter into business contracts generally remained 21, and I recall one...
[14:27] #knownspace> ronn: ...specific incident in the mid-70s when a group of friends of mine trying to rent a car to go to a national meeting found out no one would rent a car to anyone under 25.
[14:27] #knownspace> Jim: I still do not know if I got the Youngstown State University job or not.
[14:27] #knownspace> Hippy: I am so out of touch. What did this job involve?
[14:28] #knownspace> Jim: university lecturer
[14:28] #knownspace> Jim: non-tenure track
[14:29] #knownspace> ronn: IOW the same thing many of us have done for most of our careers . . .
[14:29] #knownspace> Hippy: Ronn, you're right there. Many contracts etc and insurance things can't be done until you're 25, but that is a private consideration, not a government law
[14:29] #knownspace> Jim: yup
[14:30] #knownspace> Hippy: Really? A lot of teachers here?
[14:30] #knownspace> Jim: When I was a kid, insurance companies sold coverage to college students and then discovered that the students did not get a job immediately after college and could not make payments.
[14:31] #knownspace> NickE: (ex, about 16 years ago)
[14:31] #knownspace> Hippy: We should lo a career survey
[14:32] #knownspace> Hippy: It evend out, Jim, because insuerers never pay out
[14:33] #knownspace> ronn: The argument was — backed up by neurological research in the past decade or two (iow a couple of decades after the decade of the 1970s when the above changes happened) is that teenagers' brains aren't mature enough to make life-affecting decisions like not smoking and not driving after drinking and to understand the commitment that is required of a legal contract. (Yeah, and I was...
[14:33] #knownspace> ronn: ...approached by f
[14:33] #knownspace> ronn: olks trying to sell insurance when I was 19, too. And I doubt it had anything to do that I was still that age when I got my B.S.).
[14:34] Lensman has joined #knownspace
[14:34] #knownspace> NickE: HI Lens
[14:35] #knownspace> Lensman: Hello fen!
[14:35] #knownspace> Outsider: Lensman: 02 Jun 18:25Z <fredskuentz> tell Lensman Hey Sooby!
[14:35] #knownspace> Jim: Lens!
[14:35] #knownspace> fredskuentz: lol, I set THAT a month ago
[14:35] #knownspace> fredskuentz: hey Lens
[14:35] #knownspace> SeanS: wow, been a while.
[14:35] #knownspace> SeanS: that was 2 months ago
[14:36] #knownspace> Lensman: Yeah, you'd think I wouldn't forget this chat after Sean sends a reminder, and I still have my automated reminder, would you?
[14:36] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, my short term memory has never been good, and being a senior citizen hasn't improved it any.
[14:38] #knownspace> Lensman: So I presume y'all coaxed Larry to reveal the secret of /scrith/ and tell where the Ringworld Engineers *really* disappeard to, while I was gone?
[14:38] #knownspace> Lensman: :)
[14:38] GeorgeC has joined #knownspace
[14:38] #knownspace> Jim: The chat does not start until 1500 hours EDT, so you are early Lensman.
[14:39] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, I try to show up early 'cuz some of the other regulars do, too.
[14:39] #knownspace> Hippy: Lens!
[14:39] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Ah. Well, better than forgetting, which is my usual!
[14:39] #knownspace> Lensman: Hippy!
[14:39] #knownspace> Hippy: Also, I like that remote thing that Outsider does
[14:40] #knownspace> SeanS: Lens, He did not reveal those secrets to me when I said hi to him at LibertyCon
[14:40] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah LivertyCon. . .
[14:40] #knownspace> Lensman: Joking, Sean.
[14:41] #knownspace> SeanS: I know.
[14:41] #knownspace> Hippy: All the same Lens, a fifth Ringworld novel could come from this chat
[14:41] #knownspace> NickE: (Olympic OT: Hee..3rd in the medal table. Not bad at all.)
[14:41] #knownspace> Hippy: 'LivertyCon' was the 25th annal 'lower the driniing age' con in Tuscaloosa, AL
[14:42] #knownspace> Hippy: An outrage, Nick! Where is my sunburnt country?
[14:42] #knownspace> SeanS: They were pretty adamant about drinking age in Chattanooga
[14:43] #knownspace> Hippy: Were they what! Lucky I had my passport or it would've been a dry weekend. . .
[14:45] #knownspace> NickE: (Aus. Surprisingly 19th, but 17 medals so far which is pretty good)
[14:45] #knownspace> SeanS: Hippy, I asked and was told it is state law in TN for the bartender to check ID every time unless they knew you on a first name basis. Which did not take very long. ;)
[14:46] #knownspace> Hippy: Yeah, I remember you saing that.
[14:46] #knownspace> NickE: heh
[14:46] #knownspace> Hippy: Thanks, Nick
[14:46] #knownspace> Hippy: That was a fun weekend!
[14:46] #knownspace> SeanS: I could not remember if I had told you. It did get kind of drunk around the con suite.
[14:47] #knownspace> NickE: Wish I could have been there
[14:47] Dan has joined #knownspace
[14:47] #knownspace> SeanS: hey Dan
[14:47] #knownspace> NickE: And right on cue.... Dan!
[14:47] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, I was - and heres the man himself!
[14:47] #knownspace> SeanS: Great to "see" you again.
[14:48] #knownspace> SeanS: yeah, Nick, Dan, Lyn, Hippy and I hung out together at the Con.
[14:48] #knownspace> NickE: cool
[14:48] #knownspace> Hippy: I say tat too, and for me it means something
[14:49] #knownspace> Hippy: An awesome couple the Hollifields are
[14:49] #knownspace> Dan: Hi there!
[14:49] #knownspace> SeanS: yep
[14:50] #knownspace> Dan: Mrs. Awesome is frying up some bacon & egg for me before I start writing today.
[14:50] #knownspace> Dan: :)
[14:50] #knownspace> SeanS: heh
[14:50] #knownspace> Hippy: She's a class act
[14:50] #knownspace> Dan: Sean, I need your mailing address so that I can get your book to you.
[14:50] #knownspace> Hippy: From, er, Poetsmoth, too
[14:50] #knownspace> NickE: Pompy lass :-)
[14:51] #knownspace> Hippy: Oh, yes. So what did Larry say to seeing another first edition?
[14:51] #knownspace> NickE: (lived there for about 6 yeras including college)#
[14:51] #knownspace> Dan: Indeed. You should hear her cussing during a game. She's passionate about Pompy.
[14:52] #knownspace> NickE: I can imagine
[14:53] #knownspace> Dan: There was so long a line that he didn't have time to say much. He lifted an eyebrow, I told him the book was for Sean, and he signed it. Then I had to get out of the way of the next person.
[14:53] #knownspace> SeanS: I feel great that he gave me about 8 minutes of his time when I introduced myself.
[14:54] #knownspace> NickE: shiny
[14:54] #knownspace> SeanS: He and Jerry were pretty much booked solid for the whole Con.
[14:54] #knownspace> Hippy: And I talked politics with Jerry Pournelle. I was beside myself!!
[14:54] #knownspace> NickE: I saw some of Dan's pics
[14:55] #knownspace> NickE: back in a bit - Dinner!
[14:55] #knownspace> Hippy: Lager alert here, too
[14:55] #knownspace> SeanS: I told Julie about the standing ovation for Larry and Jerry at opening ceremonies and choked up myself.
[14:57] #knownspace> SeanS: My first Con. I seriously doubt it will be the last.
[14:57] #knownspace> Dan: I managed to pull a good opening hook out of thin air last night for a story I've been wanting to write.
[14:58] #knownspace> Hippy: Cool, Dan. Let me get bakc to Ballarat and I'll send you something of what I have so far
[14:58] #knownspace> Dan: And it seems to be raining off & on here, so I decided I should try and write today.
[14:59] #knownspace> Hippy: Sean, next year's WorldCon is in San Antonio. . .in he smmer. What is with World/cons and hear?
[14:59] #knownspace> Lensman: Hippy was beside himself? So, Hippy, you mastered the technique from "By Mind Alone" ?
[14:59] #knownspace> Hippy: But if you look like going, I shall sign up as well
[15:00] #knownspace> SeanS: I will have to think about it, Hippy.
[15:00] dmac44 has joined #knownspace
[15:00] #knownspace> Hippy: I. . .Lens, you have once again out-referenced me :)
[15:00] #knownspace> Lensman: Congrats on your hook, Dan. (That sounds so wrong!)
[15:00] #knownspace> dmac44: Hi guys.
[15:00] #knownspace> Hippy: Hi, dmac
[15:00] #knownspace> Lensman: Hippy: I confess that's an obscure reference. Psi teleportation; look ma, no jump booth!
[15:01] #knownspace> Dan: A good opening line for a story is half the battle of getting a reader to finish turning the pages.
[15:01] #knownspace> Hippy: Not Niven?
[15:01] #knownspace> ronn: Dan: Not yet raining here today. Tuesday morning alone put 4.75" in my rain gauge. Rained hard for a few minutes yesterday (just beat it to the mailbox and back). Most of the front yard remains brown, however . . .
[15:01] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, "By Mind Alone" is a Niven short.
[15:02] #knownspace> Hippy: I should know it. . .but. . .
[15:02] #knownspace> Lensman: ...but it's uncollected, hence obscure.
[15:02] #knownspace> Hippy: And my books are 12000 miles away!
[15:04] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, anyway, I could cross the Pournelle chat off my bucket list
[15:04] #knownspace> Jim: Hippy, please explain.
[15:04] #knownspace> Hippy: Anyone wnat to set a topic?
[15:05] #knownspace> Jim: Chick-fil-A
[15:05] #knownspace> SeanS: I said hey to Jerry in the con suite. he said hey back but he was on his way out and did not stop.
[15:05] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Fast Food in Known Space?
[15:05] #knownspace> Lensman: A topic? Well, I've been re-reading FOOTFALL.
[15:06] #knownspace> Hippy: Jim: a 'buvket' ist' is a list of things you want to do, no matter how impossible. Don't know the origin: probably from England. Anywy, one of my wishes was to thrash out some politics with Jerry Pournelle and a fortnight ago I did it!
[15:06] #knownspace> ronn: Heck, I did that in '77. And numerous times since. Dunno if JP remembers the first time . . . or much of anything from that con . . .
[15:06] #knownspace> Lensman: Nat Reynolds, "Speaker to Seafood". I'm sure I looked for that story in Larry's "Convention Stories", and it's not there.
[15:07] #knownspace> ronn: The origin is short for "Things to do before you kick the bucket."
[15:07] #knownspace> Lensman: Harry/Hairy Red. What was the name of the real fan?
[15:07] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Frank Gasperik
[15:07] #knownspace> SeanS: Frank Gasperik
[15:07] #knownspace> Jim: OK, I knew what a bucket list was, but I call what we are doing now a chat. It looks to me like you had a personal conversation with Jerry.
[15:07] #knownspace> Hippy: Yep!
[15:07] #knownspace> Lensman: Thank you Sean. Frank must have been a real character! I had forgotten he's such a prominent character in FOOTFALL.
[15:08] #knownspace> Dan: We did, and Larry too, at a convention 2 weeks ago.
[15:08] #knownspace> Hippy: I'm sad I never had a beer with Frank
[15:08] #knownspace> Lensman: His fictional appearance in LUCIFER'S HAMMER isn't nearly so well developed.
[15:08] #knownspace> SeanS: Lensman, I considered him a good friend. We never met but I would talk on the phone with him and his wife Peggy all the time.
[15:09] #knownspace> SeanS: in fact, I run the chat server because the one we were using disappeared and he called asking if I could set one up.
[15:09] #knownspace> Dan: I was even on an autograph panel with Larry & Jerry. LOL! I was asked to sign about a dozen con program booklets.
[15:10] #knownspace> Hippy: I'm suck a slckarse I never got you to sign mine, but its okay since you bought me a house :)
[15:11] #knownspace> ronn: He's a fairly regular guest at events in Utah. Fall of 77 in SLC was the first one I went to after getting out there. (Dunno if there was anything in '76, but I only got out to HAFB in Oct 76 and was too busy to make any contacts within the SF community for awhile after that.) Unfortunately, in 77 JP still imbibed rather heavily . . .
[15:11] #knownspace> Lensman: Very strange to read a 1987 story that predicts the rise of the cold war with the Soviets again, and the USSR dominating space. Not a very good prediction there... :)
[15:12] #knownspace> Hippy: Now I wish I'd met the drinking JP
[15:12] #knownspace> ronn: What 1987 story is that?
[15:12] #knownspace> Dan: Oh, bad news on the steampunk short story, it didn't make the cut for "Dreams Of Steam 3" - I got the rejection slip last night.
[15:13] #knownspace> Lensman: Ronn: FOOTFALL
[15:13] #knownspace> SeanS: Sorry to hear that, Dan
[15:13] #knownspace> Hippy: How dare they, Dan!
[15:13] #knownspace> Lensman: Obviously they're Philistines, Dan.
[15:13] #knownspace> Hippy: Footfall is 85, Lens
[15:14] #knownspace> Lensman: 1985? Okay. Still.
[15:14] #knownspace> Hippy: I voted for it for the 86 Hugo
[15:14] #knownspace> SeanS: and nobody predicted the USSR would collapse as fast as it did that I know of anyway.
[15:14] #knownspace> Hippy: It lost to Neuromancer
[15:14] #knownspace> SeanS: Neuromancer was excellent.
[15:14] NickE has joined #knownspace
[15:15] #knownspace> Hippy: Nick!
[15:15] #knownspace> Dan: Well, I do have several good friends who got their stories accepted, so maybe mine was just a little bit less good than ttheirs, LOL! I know it doesn't suck, but different publishing houses sometmes have in-house rules that my story might have broken. Dunno.
[15:15] #knownspace> Lensman: Yeah, huge failure on the part of Western intelligence at not realizing how close the USSR was to economic collapse.
[15:15] #knownspace> Hippy: They should tell you their in-house rules, though
[15:16] #knownspace> NickE: hmm all I did was close the netbook - still, less to catch up on
[15:16] #knownspace> Hippy: I don't know about that Nick, Lens id dating your wife
[15:16] #knownspace> SeanS: the dreaded auto-hibernate
[15:16] #knownspace> Dan: The good news is now I can re-write it a bit and add in several scenes I didn't have room for the first time, because of the word count limit I had been set.
[15:16] #knownspace> NickE: yeah, hw
[15:16] #knownspace> NickE: what?
[15:16] #knownspace> NickE: :-)
[15:17] #knownspace> Lensman: Dan: It's possible your story was rejected because it was too like another, or that it was the wrong length, or... other reasons. I'm sure I don't have to tell you to submit it elsewhere!
[15:18] #knownspace> Lensman: I'm dating Nick's wife, and don't know it? Guess I must be schizo.
[15:18] #knownspace> Dan: Lens, this one got accepted for a British anthology, then got bumpped out of the final edit because Tanith Lee sent in a late submission. So I know it can make the cut, it just didn't make it this time with this 2nd publisher.
[15:19] #knownspace> Dan: Not a big deal, really. Disappointing, but not going to depress me.
[15:19] #knownspace> NickE: just keep pluggin
[15:20] #knownspace> Lensman: Dan: As I recall, the first time we chatted you were talking about your steampunk costume.
[15:20] #knownspace> SeanS: and I saw it.
[15:21] #knownspace> Lensman: I've seen pictures!
[15:21] #knownspace> SeanS: He made an excellent steampunk pistol for the writer Stephanie Osborn.
[15:22] #knownspace> Lensman: Clearly Dan is a man of many talents.
[15:22] #knownspace> Hippy: That he is
[15:22] #knownspace> SeanS: she was super nice as well.
[15:22] #knownspace> Hippy: I wish I'd spoken longer to Ms Osborn, too
[15:22] #knownspace> SeanS: we shared some Irish Mist.
[15:23] #knownspace> SeanS: provided by Dan.
[15:23] #knownspace> Dan: I've got so many irons in the fire this year that I'm running out of firewood, LOL! This Nightwatch series story has to be ready for the December issue of my e-zine, I'm writing more of my spaceport bar stories in the hopes that a publisher will want to give me a 2-book deal, I was asked to submit a story to a major series at yet another publisher, and I have my usual 4 or 5 unfinished
[15:23] #knownspace> Dan: novels simmering in the background.
[15:23] #knownspace> Hippy: What, no 'tomarto' juice?
[15:23] #knownspace> SeanS: I had a lot more time with her, Hippy. Your flight problems kind of goofed your first day.
[15:24] #knownspace> SeanS: yeah... making me drink a bloody mary that early on Saturday. ;)
[15:24] Larry has joined #knownspace
[15:24] #knownspace> Dan: LOL! I've got to remember those Bloody Marys for the mornings after, from now on at cons.
[15:24] #knownspace> Hippy: Hi, Larry!
[15:24] #knownspace> SeanS: Hi Larry
[15:24] #knownspace> Jim: Larry!
[15:24] #knownspace> dmac44: Hi Larry.
[15:24] #knownspace> Dan: Hiya, Larry!
[15:24] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Welcome, Larry!
[15:24] #knownspace> ronn: Hi, Larry!
[15:25] #knownspace> Larry: Hi. It took me awhile to figure a way in.
[15:25] #knownspace> Dan: We were just discussing LibertyCon. Thank you for being there!
[15:25] #knownspace> Larry: What's our topic?
[15:25] #knownspace> Lensman: I'm going to plug a SF parody movie: "Iron Sky". Nazis from the dark side of the moon!
[15:25] #knownspace> Lensman: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Py_IndUbcxc
[15:25] #knownspace> SeanS: I didn't put many instructions in the chat notice this time. was kinda pressured on time by the gf.
[15:25] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry: Well, I was trying to discuss FOOTFALL but there wasn't much response. Or any.
[15:26] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Footfall needs to be a movie.
[15:26] #knownspace> Larry: LibertyCon: yeah, that was fun.
[15:26] #knownspace> Hippy: Hell, yes!
[15:27] #knownspace> SeanS: It was very nice meeting you, Larry.
[15:27] #knownspace> Lensman: "Iron Sky" is a very, very independent film. The film maker is renting a theatre here in Kansas City, and some of us are going late this month to see a one-time showing. Catch it later on the direct-to-video market.
[15:27] Akiraa has joined #knownspace
[15:27] #knownspace> Dan: If made by a good director & producer, I'd agree. But I love Larry's work too much to want to see a bad movie made from any of the stories.
[15:27] #knownspace> Larry: I've been rereading Lucifer's Hammer. Jerry and I want to write a novel in similar fashion.
[15:27] #knownspace> Dan: That's my wife's favoriet one.
[15:28] #knownspace> SeanS: kind of an update rather than a sequel?
[15:28] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Current CGI is good enough to do anything, even Footfall and Ringworld. The one I want to see: Lucifer's Hammer.
[15:28] #knownspace> Jim: Ah, the 1970's.
[15:28] #knownspace> Hippy: But what would you destroy the world with thi time?
[15:28] EML has joined #knownspace
[15:28] #knownspace> Hippy: God! Death to laptop keyboards!!
[15:28] #knownspace> SeanS: Hi Ed.
[15:28] #knownspace> EML: Hi, all.
[15:28] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Thought the idea this time was, how to save the world?
[15:28] #knownspace> Hippy: Hi, Ed
[15:28] #knownspace> dmac44: Hi Ed.
[15:28] #knownspace> Dan: Gamma Ray Bursts would be different, LOL!
[15:28] #knownspace> Jim: Ed!
[15:29] #knownspace> Dan: Hiya Ed!
[15:29] #knownspace> Larry: It's another approach to the asteroid threat. This time we'll watch civilization trying to stop it. Our current civilization can't do it.
[15:29] #knownspace> Lensman: Welcome, Ed!
[15:29] #knownspace> ronn: Hi, Ed!
[15:29] #knownspace> SeanS: Ed, your were right. My mind was blown at LibertyCon.
[15:29] #knownspace> dmac44: Dan* how would you know they were coming?
[15:29] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Too right you can't.
[15:29] #knownspace> NickE: wup. Hi Larry, Hi Ed
[15:29] #knownspace> EML: Sean: I'm glad it was a good experience.
[15:29] #knownspace> Dan: dmac, you wouldn't. That's probably why no one seems to be using that threat in a book.
[15:30] #knownspace> Lensman: I agree FOOTFALL might be more cinematic, but LH is a better story.
[15:30] #knownspace> GeorgeC: You'd have to write the aftermath.
[15:30] #knownspace> dmac44: dan: unless a star was pointing at us and the collapse cpould be predicted.
[15:30] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Love the depth of characters in LH.
[15:31] #knownspace> Lensman: FOOT might do better when condensed to a 2-hour movie, though. You'd have to hack out an incredible amount out of LH to make that a feature film; it should be a mini-series.
[15:31] #knownspace> Larry: yes. george. The aftermath is the real test of a writer's skill. Implications count.
[15:31] #knownspace> Hippy: Don't the gamma rays arrive at lightspeed? By the time you see it, you're dead?
[15:31] #knownspace> GeorgeC: LH mini-series, yes please!
[15:31] #knownspace> dmac44: Hippy* was unless you could predict the event which caused them.
[15:32] #knownspace> Hippy: You could do a proper version of one of these EMP aftermths that are flooding Amazon
[15:32] #knownspace> Dan: dmac, true, but beyond my meager skills at this time. I've got too much to worry about plotting the Fly By Wire murder-mystery sequel I was telling you I got the opening hook for.
[15:32] #knownspace> Hippy: Quite right, dmac
[15:33] EML has joined #knownspace
[15:33] #knownspace> Jim: bye
[15:33] #knownspace> Larry: LH as a miniseries, yes. Even so, a producer once asked, "Do you know how much rain this would be?" Actors don't like rain.
[15:33] #knownspace> Jim: hi
[15:33] #knownspace> EML: minor tech glitch ... I'm back
[15:33] #knownspace> SeanS: yeah... clicking the wrong thing sucks.
[15:33] #knownspace> Dan: True, and actors usually don't much like green screen, either.
[15:34] #knownspace> Hippy: Lary for dramatic purposes, you can skip the rain or film it in New Zealand
[15:34] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Rain? . . . Interesting. Hadn't thought of that.
[15:34] #knownspace> dmac44: soon the actors could be CGI'd.
[15:34] #knownspace> fredskuentz: Greetings Larry
[15:34] #knownspace> EML: is a movie in the offing, or are we just spitballing?
[15:34] #knownspace> SeanS: yeah. it would rain for the 2nd half of the movie
[15:34] #knownspace> SeanS: spitballing
[15:34] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Coulda filmed it here yesterday. So much rain the power kept going out in the movie theater!
[15:34] #knownspace> Lensman: There are a lot of interviews for HBO's "Game of Thrones" that have the actors raving about how much better it is to work on a complete set. So yeah, green screen has its limits as far as interacting with the actors.
[15:34] #knownspace> Larry: EML: we're just daydreaming.
[15:35] #knownspace> Jim: more like the last 2/3rds
[15:35] #knownspace> Hippy: Where is that, GeorgeC?
[15:35] #knownspace> SeanS: Jim, I will agree with 2/3rds
[15:35] #knownspace> GeorgeC: So, couple of weeks until Fate of Worlds!
[15:35] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Philadelphia.
[15:36] #knownspace> SeanS: I sense Fate will be my Bday present.
[15:36] #knownspace> Lensman: "It had been raining since the top of the page..." (BORED OF THE RINGS)
[15:36] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Trying to watch Amazing Spider-Man. Not so amazing with the power out.
[15:36] #knownspace> EML: the Fate of Worlds is in Philadelpgia? Scary!
[15:36] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah, GeorgeC
[15:36] #knownspace> NickE: (OT:suspect I'm about to watch Mike Phelps get his 22nd Olympic medal)
[15:36] #knownspace> Dan: Found a hardcover copy of "Bored..." in a charity shop last time we visited Portsmouth.
[15:36] #knownspace> GeorgeC: LOL at Lensman
[15:37] #knownspace> Lensman: I didn't know there had ever been a hc of BORED.
[15:37] #knownspace> NickE: Bored is sooo funny
[15:37] #knownspace> NickE: It was reprinted
[15:37] #knownspace> SeanS: is Bored kinda like The Tardis at Pooh Corner?
[15:37] #knownspace> Lensman: @George: DRIBBLE, DRIBBLE, DRIBBLE, WHOOSH!
[15:37] #knownspace> Dan: Well, perhaps it was only HC in England. Never seen one here in the States, just paperbacks.
[15:38] #knownspace> Lensman: BORED is absolutely one of the greatest parodies ever written.
[15:38] #knownspace> NickE: yup
[15:38] #knownspace> Dan: Sean, don't know. Bored is by the Harvard Lampoon, from the '60s or '70s.
[15:38] #knownspace> Hippy: So, before Lens asked where the real Ringworld Engineers went. . .
[15:38] #knownspace> NickE: damn near wet myself reading it the first time
[15:39] #knownspace> Dan: They even parodied Tolkein's *footnotes*!
[15:39] #knownspace> SeanS: on those recommendations, I will see if it is at the local bookstore.
[15:39] #knownspace> Hippy: What in the ? BORED is. . .it ot its tense wrong
[15:39] #knownspace> Lensman: Hippy: What?
[15:39] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, Dan I admit those were fnny
[15:40] #knownspace> Dan: That's the sort of attention to detain that makes a parody a classic in and of itself.
[15:40] #knownspace> Lensman: Hippy: I *did* ask Larry where the real REs went. He demurred.
[15:40] #knownspace> Dan: detail
[15:40] #knownspace> Jim: Unfortunately, I am going to leave; I am not feeling well today for some reason.
[15:40] #knownspace> Hippy: You asked eaeler, Lens, where the real Ringwordl enginers went :
[15:40] #knownspace> Jim: bye
[15:40] #knownspace> Dan: Bye, Jim!
[15:41] #knownspace> Hippy: Of course you weren't serious, Lens
[15:41] #knownspace> Hippy: 'Bye, Jim
[15:41] #knownspace> GeorgeC: "He might have killed (Gollum) then, but pity stayed his hand. 'It's a pity I've run out of bullets', he thought." ---Dildo Bugger
[15:41] #knownspace> NickE: (OT: Gold it was)
[15:41] #knownspace> Lensman: No, wasn't serious earlier today, knew I wouldn't get an answer
[15:41] #knownspace> Dan: (I can see my spell-check is going to get a real workout today.)
[15:41] #knownspace> NickE: HA, that was possibly the single funniest line
[15:42] #knownspace> GeorgeC: That line has stuck with me for decades!
[15:42] #knownspace> Lensman: ROTFL! I had forgotten that one.
[15:42] #knownspace> Hippy: Sorry, Dan. I'm on one of these God-cused laptops
[15:43] #knownspace> Hippy: GergeC, dont' tell me you quoted that from memory!
[15:43] #knownspace> Dan: Not your typos, Hippy, but mine. LOL!
[15:43] #knownspace> Lensman: Okay, I have an actual question for Larry: Will there be a mass market paperback edition of STARS AND GODS ?
[15:43] #knownspace> NickE: HEck the MAp is a work of genius "The Tiny X shaped Forrest" "LAnd of the people with teh medium sized teeth"
[15:43] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Yeah, but you notice I couldn't remember the parody name for Gollum!
[15:43] #knownspace> NickE: Goddamn
[15:43] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Ah!
[15:44] #knownspace> Hippy: It seems I will have to buy the thing
[15:44] #knownspace> Larry: re Stars and Gods: I don't know. It's not quite new, so maybe not.
[15:44] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Hey, Larry, any future anthologies in the works? Love those, especially with the anecdotes between the tales.
[15:45] #knownspace> Hippy: I concur, GeorgeC
[15:45] #knownspace> Dan: Ditto!
[15:45] #knownspace> NickE: yup
[15:46] #knownspace> Hippy: If it werent' for those, I might've read Brian Aldiss
[15:46] bandersnatch has joined #knownspace
[15:46] #knownspace> bandersnatch: plop
[15:46] #knownspace> Larry: If TOR is satisfied with the sales of SAGods, they'll do another paroldy in another ten years. Of course I'm guessing.
[15:46] #knownspace> NickE: hey
[15:46] #knownspace> Hippy: Hello, Bandersnatch
[15:46] #knownspace> GeorgeC: I used to go to the old-school Trek cons, back in the 70's. The cons now are . . . tamer. Larry's stories give me the impression it's the same for generic SF cons. Is it?
[15:47] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Hey, Bandy!
[15:47] #knownspace> Hippy: And here was I thinking Bandersnatch was a bot. . .
[15:47] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Ten years? Oh Hells, write faster! ;-)
[15:47] #knownspace> Larry: Trek cons don't much resemble SF/f cons.
[15:47] #knownspace> bandersnatch: a generous foot rippling all around
[15:47] #knownspace> Lensman: Gollum becomes "Goddam".
[15:47] #knownspace> Dan: Well, all I have to go by are the 2 cons per year I go to regularly. Not going to Dragon*Con any time soon. That one is too big for my comfort zone. I prefer small cons.
[15:47] #knownspace> GeorgeC: True!
[15:48] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Trek cons are a different beasty.
[15:48] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Dan, same here. A con gets too big, it's less fun.
[15:48] #knownspace> Lensman: Oops, I see I need not have found my copy.
[15:48] #knownspace> NickE: hoping London gets WorldCon in 2014
[15:49] #knownspace> Dan: Shame, really, Atlanta is merely a 90 minute drive away from home.
[15:49] #knownspace> GeorgeC: My copy of BooR disintegrated long ago.
[15:49] #knownspace> Hippy: I shall vote for London
[15:49] #knownspace> NickE: Glasgow was fun. Lunch with Brenda Cooper - and gave her the Niven List T shirt fior Larry ;-)
[15:49] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Collapsed under it's own mirth!
[15:49] #knownspace> Lensman: This is my 2nd copy of BORED.
[15:50] #knownspace> Lensman: 23rd printing!
[15:50] #knownspace> Hippy: There's a T-shirt???
[15:50] #knownspace> GeorgeC: I need to get out to more cons!
[15:50] #knownspace> GeorgeC: T-shirt, you say . . ?
[15:50] #knownspace> Larry: I should be getting dressed for a games party,. Fare you well.
[15:50] #knownspace> bandersnatch: Never been to a con. An EU place would open possibilities
[15:50] #knownspace> NickE: Well, I knocked several up for a list meet up at WC 2005
[15:50] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Good day, Larry!
[15:50] #knownspace> Hippy: Bye, Larry
[15:50] #knownspace> dmac44: bye Larry.
[15:51] #knownspace> NickE: bye Larry
[15:51] #knownspace> Lensman: Most of the people who go to literary SF cons have gotten older, so if they're less energetic on average than they used to be, there's a good reason.
[15:51] #knownspace> EML: ttfn, Larry.
[15:51] #knownspace> Lensman: OTOH I walked thru a local Anime con, full of youngsters, and the excitement was palpable. I miss that.
[15:52] #knownspace> Dan: We were going to go to the annual Jack The Ripper conference this year, but having to go to New Mexico to see my step-son graduate college ate the funds for that trip to England. JTR conferenced alternate between US and England each year, so next year's will be closer.
[15:52] #knownspace> NickE: somewhere I've a pic of me Brenda and Tim (a past lister) with the T shirts on
[15:52] #knownspace> Lensman: Games party? What?
[15:52] #knownspace> Hippy: Yes,Lens, but where but a literary con cna you have a conversation?
[15:52] #knownspace> dmac44: more competition today: comiccon, burning man, etc.
[15:52] #knownspace> ronn: Not to mention that media-related cons (and everything else) are big bu$ine$$ today.
[15:52] #knownspace> Hippy: We're older, but we can talk intelligently
[15:53] #knownspace> Lensman: Hippy: The hotel lobby was crowded with young fen dressed in Anime costumes, mostly chatting. Some, inevitably, buried in texting.
[15:53] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Yeah, I went to an anime con couple of years back. The youthful energy was indeed contagious. Reminded me much of myself and my friends way back when . . .
[15:54] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, most of my local fan group was that age when we started in fandom. I was 19 or 20 when fandom discovered me.
[15:54] #knownspace> Hippy: A literary con is the live action version of this - whcihis why Im getting anoter beer
[15:54] #knownspace> Dan: My first-ever con was an Atlanta Comic Con. It was fun, but a blizzard struck on the 2nd day and Atlanta was frozen solid. The con canceled the rest of the weekend.
[15:54] #knownspace> NickE: me too, brb
[15:54] #knownspace> Hippy: Must remember to show my ID to the fridge
[15:54] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, this chat room is very much like a conversation at a literary con party.
[15:55] #knownspace> GeorgeC: I was 16 at my first con, on a day trip to NYC.
[15:55] #knownspace> Dan: LOL! I got another bartender at Liberty with my character ID from the steampunk novel. Nothing like showing a birthdate from the 1800's to prove you're of age, LOL!
[15:55] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Ha!
[15:56] #knownspace> Lensman: LOL! That's great, Dan.
[15:56] #knownspace> dmac44: mine was at 42 through I'd been reading SF for 30 years.
[15:57] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Wonder if you could get past them with a Torchwood Institute ID from that period?
[15:57] #knownspace> Lensman: I've been reading SF since age 11 or so, but I just thought those conventions listed in the back of ANALOG and other prozines were business conventions for authors and editors.
[15:57] #knownspace> GeorgeC: One of these days I'm going to the local RenFaire as a era-appropriate steampunk character!
[15:58] #knownspace> Dan: If it's done well enough, yeah. It's not like an actual bar, and every bartender is way over-worked.
[15:58] #knownspace> dmac44: lens: same here.
[15:58] #knownspace> Lensman: Steampunk in the Renaissance? ...okay, I confess my imagination flunks that test.
[15:59] #knownspace> Dan: We went through 18 kegs of beer that weekend, and drained the last two on the Sunday night after-the-con party.
[15:59] #knownspace> Lensman: "Dead dog party".
[15:59] #knownspace> Dan: Yep!
[15:59] #knownspace> NickE: heh (supping some Tanglefoot now. Yum)
[16:00] #knownspace> Hippy: Becks here. Authetic German lager from. . .Missouri
[16:00] #knownspace> GeorgeC: A RenFaire outfit with a couple of hidden gadgets and an ID for "Her Majesty's Institute at Torchwood" would be fun.
[16:00] #knownspace> Dan: I've still got some of that Irish Mist left from the con. I intend to sip it while I write tonight.
[16:00] #knownspace> EML: chores cry out ... alas. ttfn, folks.
[16:00] #knownspace> dmac44: bye Ed.
[16:00] #knownspace> Dan: Bye, Ed! Have fun!
[16:00] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Bye, Ed!
[16:00] #knownspace> Hippy: ''Bye, ed
[16:01] #knownspace> Hippy: Ed
[16:01] #knownspace> NickE: bye Ed
[16:01] #knownspace> NickE: too late
[16:01] #knownspace> Dan: BRB, bio-break...
[16:01] #knownspace> Hippy: So, now GeorgeC, why have we not seen you before on this chat?
[16:02] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Been a while; we tend to be busy Saturday afternoons, either out somewhere or busy at home, in which case I tend to, uh, forget. Doing a lot of that these days!
[16:02] #knownspace> Lensman: Maybe I'm being too literay in equating "steampunk" with "age of steam" ?
[16:02] #knownspace> Lensman: ...literal...
[16:03] #knownspace> NickE: OH YES, another UK Gold - Jess Ennis in the heptathalon, bloody marvelous performance
[16:03] #knownspace> Dan: Back...
[16:03] #knownspace> Hippy: No, Lens. 'Steam mens Victoran England and the same perid worldwide
[16:04] #knownspace> Hippy: That was something
[16:04] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, I've been trying to draw Dan out about his idea for a Renaissance steampunk costume, but he's not biting.
[16:04] #knownspace> Hippy: Dan talked about to Sean and I at the con
[16:05] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Weeellll, take it as "advanced" mechanical inventions in a given early period.
[16:05] #knownspace> Hippy: What the ? Dan, what is this of which Lens speaks?
[16:05] #knownspace> Dan: Larry, you mentioned a comet-deflecting story... That means you'll want to avoid my "Fly By Wire" even though Lucifer's Hammer gets mentioned and Frank Gasperik is a speaking character. Once again, thank you for allowing me to give Jerry & yourself a nod in that story.
[16:05] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry has left, sorry.
[16:05] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Aye, Dan, speak out, sirrah!
[16:05] #knownspace> Dan: Ah, rats, oh well...
[16:06] #knownspace> Lensman: HEY DAN TELL US ABOUT YOUR IDEAS FOR A RENAISSANCE STEAMPUNK COSTUME!
[16:06] #knownspace> Dan: RenFair steampunk? OK, the character would almost have to be a time traveler.
[16:06] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Larry went to a games party. Wonder what kind?
[16:06] #knownspace> GeorgeC: ObBigBang: Sheldon at the RenFaire dressed as Spock!
[16:07] #knownspace> GeorgeC: I'd like to do a costume of an agent for the Queen's newly-created Torchwood.
[16:07] #knownspace> Lensman: George: I was wondering that myself. Well, we have a topic of conversation for next month!
[16:08] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Hee
[16:08] #knownspace> Hippy: I like Harry Harrison's 'Her Majesy's FBI even though it make sn sense
[16:08] #knownspace> Dan: So they would have a partly-correct Ren costume, but would also have steampunk gear along. Perhaps as if they had tried to adapt Da Vinci's drawings to the age of steam.
[16:08] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Yes!
[16:08] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Might be able to use some bits from Girl Genius.
[16:08] #knownspace> Hippy: Now that works, Dan!
[16:09] #knownspace> Dan: Gadgest would be made of wood & brass, rather than steel & brass. Lots of copper, too.
[16:09] #knownspace> GeorgeC: But what sort of gadgets would they devise then, what would they consider useful?
[16:09] #knownspace> Hippy: Think of Keih Roberts
[16:10] #knownspace> Dan: Shoes would be modern, rather than period-correct. And the goggles would be really fancy.
[16:10] #knownspace> Hippy: And I say that becase I can't type
[16:10] #knownspace> Lensman: Oops, my bad, it was George who said he wanted to go to a Renfaire in an era-appropriate Steampunk costume. Not Dan.
[16:10] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Oh. Sorry, thought he'd had the same idea!
[16:11] #knownspace> Dan: Not a problem, Lens. I'm one of the group's resident steampunks, after all.
[16:11] #knownspace> Lensman: Ooh kewl, Da Vinci tech!
[16:11] #knownspace> Lensman: Now we're talking.
[16:11] #knownspace> GeorgeC: I;m thinking the character would have steampunk/DaVinci 007-type of gadgets.
[16:12] #knownspace> Hippy: So, someone in 'Pavane' workd works out that flahses of light are better than semphore signals
[16:12] #knownspace> Lensman: Look at the "Wild Wild West" series for lots of mechanical-only gadgets.
[16:12] #knownspace> dmac44: the romans and greeks had some simple steam devices. I wonder what steampunk 2000 years ago would have been like?
[16:12] #knownspace> Hippy: What was that 'Girls of Nell
[16:13] #knownspace> Dan: Weapons would be rather like a balestae or musket, sword cane, and perhaps one of those small dueling daggers (the ones for the off-hand for a two-fisted swordsman.)
[16:13] #knownspace> Hippy: Gwynnes from a couple of years back?
[16:13] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, the Greeks reportedly had "magic" temple doors that would open and close via steam power.
[16:13] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Weapons, yes, a cool-looking gun, maybe some wild binoculars, too.
[16:13] #knownspace> Hippy: Dmac,. that is a star question!
[16:14] #knownspace> dmac44: i try. :)
[16:14] #knownspace> Lensman: But, as you say, very simple steam-powered devices. Not sure how that works for a costume, so probably stick to mechanical. Spring-driven and the like.
[16:14] #knownspace> GeorgeC: And, of course, something gadgety in the hat!
[16:15] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Fake steam, yes. Mechanical, possibly with some safe type of smoke.
[16:15] #knownspace> Lensman: I saw something recently on a TV documentary about a spring-driven cart. Not sure if that was a da Vinci design or not.
[16:15] #knownspace> Dan: Pouches on utility belts, clothes with pockets, almost modern shoes... very anachronistic stuff on an almost correct period costume.
[16:16] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Wild Wild West does have some great stuff. Olde West 007!
[16:16] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Right, Dan!
[16:16] #knownspace> Hippy: AT the con, you could drag a small doneky enginer behind you gnerrating enough power to run your laptop. That would rule!
[16:16] #knownspace> Lensman: Exactly, George. A friend of mine gave me the 1st & 2nd season on DVD. Fond memories!
[16:16] #knownspace> Hippy: And saves on getting slaves
[16:16] #knownspace> GeorgeC: ISTR the spring cart might have been DaVinci, yes.
[16:17] #knownspace> Hippy: Weird. Paolo
[16:18] #knownspace> Hippy: Gid! . . .Bacigalupi's 'Windup '
[16:18] #knownspace> Hippy: Girl' features s0ring powered stuff a lot
[16:18] #knownspace> dmac44: I believe JP said that horse collars (and by extension I would guess donkey collars) ended slavery.
[16:18] #knownspace> Dan: I had wanted to do a steampunk Iron Man costume, but someone beat me to it, and did it so well that I was forced to give up the idea. However, a steampunk Rocketeer outfit would be do-able. :) My characters are all American, with heavy Wild Wild West influences.
[16:18] #knownspace> ronn: "The Night of the Pelican" is currently showing on MeTV.
[16:19] #knownspace> Lensman: Truly amazing how long it took to invent the horse collar. I'd have thought that would be thousands of years old, but there was only the oxbow in ancient times.
[16:19] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Is that anything like "The Night of the Lepus"? ;-)
[16:19] #knownspace> Hippy: Dmac: comforting thought, but after all, a donkey can't pick cotton
[16:20] #knownspace> Dan: I must admit that part of the fun of going to a steampunk event is hearing all the people using fake English accents STFU when my wife starts talking.
[16:20] #knownspace> Lensman: Hey! I've seen "Night of the Lepus". I'm not normally a fan of "so bad they're good" movies, but that one was entertaining!
[16:20] #knownspace> Dan: Hippy, your accent did make her homesick. But she loved meeting you & Sean!
[16:20] #knownspace> ronn: Episodes of "The Wild Wild West" all started with "The Night of the . . . "
[16:20] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Yeah, Lepus was just this side of yikes.
[16:20] #knownspace> dmac44: Hippy: a mechanical cotton picker pulled by a horse(s) is more efficent I think.
[16:21] #knownspace> Lensman: ronn: Almost every single one, yes.
[16:21] #knownspace> Hippy: It's based on an Australian novel
[16:21] #knownspace> Hippy: And yes, Dan your lovely wife's accent would certainly give them pause. . .
[16:22] #knownspace> Lensman: Give them paws? Oh, is it a furry con? <Lensman ducks>
[16:22] #knownspace> Hippy: Dan it was delight to meet her. Now you know why
[16:22] #knownspace> Hippy: I
[16:23] #knownspace> Lensman: I rather suspect any sentance reading "_____ ended slavery" is overstating the case. Steam power certainly did help end slavery.
[16:23] #knownspace> Hippy: WTF??? I
[16:23] #knownspace> NickE: (13 golds. Long Jump now. Blimey)
[16:23] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Never been to a furry con. Anthrocon used to be quite near, but I never bothered to go. Now it's on the other side of the state. Just as well!
[16:23] #knownspace> Dan: In my steampunk novel backstory, the timeline diverged when Hero of Alexandria figured out how to get his steam engine to actually do some work rather than just be a party trick. So the Greeks conquored the Romans, instead of the way things went down in our timeline.
[16:23] #knownspace> Hippy: 'mso jealous. Finally!
[16:24] #knownspace> Dan: Steam powered war chariots, airships hundreds of years too early, etc.
[16:24] #knownspace> Hippy: Dan, that is a HUGE divergence!
[16:24] #knownspace> GeorgeC: I like alt.history tales, but I frequently have some issues because I find I'm not aware of what they changed or why it matters!
[16:24] #knownspace> dmac44: lens: just quoting but I agree with you. it helped. but from what i read there is still slavery in the world today. just not as much.
[16:25] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Got both volumes of "What Might Have Been", but it's a bit of a slog at times.
[16:25] #knownspace> Hippy: Not as widespread, but more actual people
[16:25] #knownspace> Dan: Yep, that's why my notes for a story are often longer than most people's books. I like to develop the world I'm writing about.
[16:25] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Ha! I know the feeling.
[16:25] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Lots of notes; not enough actual writing!
[16:25] #knownspace> Hippy: It's the differecne between writers and hacks, Dan
[16:26] #knownspace> Dan: Fly By Wire was about 65 or 75 thousand words. But my notes for it were easily twice that.
[16:26] #knownspace> SeanS: back... wandered down the hill to drink a couple with friends who had pulled into the beach.
[16:26] #knownspace> Dan: WB, Sean!
[16:26] #knownspace> Lensman: dmac: Maybe I should have found a nicer way to say that. I do appreciate any Pournelle references, whether I agree with them or not. Dr. Pournelle certainly did write some wonderful speculative science articles, in "A Step Further Out" and elsewhere. I enjoy those a lot altho I don't care much for his fiction.
[16:27] #knownspace> dmac44: lens: i didn't take it negatively.
[16:27] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Drinks. Beach. And you came back??
[16:27] #knownspace> Dan: Jerry is starting to look frail. I don't know how many more cons he's going to be able to go to.
[16:27] #knownspace> SeanS: storm threatening so the headed down stream. several kids on board.
[16:27] #knownspace> SeanS: the=they
[16:27] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Ah,
[16:28] #knownspace> SeanS: I agree, Dan
[16:28] #knownspace> Dan: Larry is still looking healthy, although sitting at the autograph tables did seem to do a number on his legs & back.
[16:28] #knownspace> SeanS: Larry did do some serious stretching when he got up.
[16:29] #knownspace> Dan: Yeah, and Jerry was ribbing him about it, LOL!
[16:29] #knownspace> SeanS: yep
[16:29] #knownspace> GeorgeC: They still take walks, yes?
[16:29] #knownspace> Dan: I was happy to see that no one pissed Jerry off this year. I was a bit worried about that, myself.
[16:29] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry was having health issues when he was at ConQuesT (our local con) a few years ago, and he's been writing a lot about health issues, so I thought perhaps he wasn't in good shape. So I'm glad to hear he looks good.
[16:29] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Good exercise, that.
[16:29] #knownspace> SeanS: I saw them walking across the parking lot.
[16:31] #knownspace> Dan: LOL! Jerry ought to go to a steampunk con. All those ladies in corsets would be good for his blood pressure. :)
[16:31] #knownspace> SeanS: heh
[16:31] #knownspace> Dan: Does wonders for mine, LOL!
[16:31] #knownspace> Lensman: *chuckle*
[16:31] #knownspace> SeanS: or bad for his blood pressure
[16:31] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Try the RenFaire; it's better than Hooters!
[16:32] #knownspace> SeanS: i can imagine
[16:32] #knownspace> Dan: Same sort of thing, George.
[16:33] #knownspace> Dan: Probably one of the reasons I'm so well liked at the Atlanta steampunk con is that I have developed the ability to talk to a pretty girl's face rather than to her bustline.
[16:33] #knownspace> Dan: :)
[16:34] #knownspace> Dan: That shit ain't easy to do with some of the girls. LOL!
[16:34] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Oh yeah.
[16:34] #knownspace> SeanS: no kidding
[16:34] #knownspace> Hippy: well, some girls are only a bustline
[16:35] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Some of them want you to look, at least once! They didn't put that there for nothing! Just don't drool.
[16:35] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah, now there
[16:35] #knownspace> Hippy: 's a hint
[16:36] #knownspace> Hippy: This keyboard!!!
[16:36] #knownspace> Dan: But the conversations are amazing. Liberty and AnachroCon have that in common. You can get into a great conversation on nearly any subject just by walking up and listening to someone for a few seconds.
[16:36] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Yep!
[16:36] #knownspace> SeanS: I have no problem with this laptop keyboard hippy. But you are blind as a bat. ;)
[16:37] #knownspace> Lensman: Considering all the complaining about corsets, I was surprised the first time I went to a Renfaire how many women were willing to subject themseves to that. Diff'rent strokes, I guess.
[16:37] #knownspace> Hippy: I envy bats
[16:37] #knownspace> SeanS: I know you do ;)
[16:37] #knownspace> Hippy: LOL!
[16:37] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Mine works unless I touch the damn on-board mousepad. Then it does weird things.
[16:37] #knownspace> Lensman: Hmmm yes, I presume if they're advertising, they want to be looked at. Altho perhaps not stared at.
[16:37] #knownspace> SeanS: i would say the complaints about corsets were when there was nothing else. They are doing this for one day in fun.
[16:38] #knownspace> Hippy: Yes. . . althogh Google corsets
[16:38] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Costume corsets aren't usually too tight, not like the old days. They just fit.
[16:39] #knownspace> Hippy: This
[16:39] #knownspace> Dan: The thing that I grinned over most at Liberty was Sean's reaction to finding out what a Con Suite was. Well, that and drinking Hippy & Sean under the table twice in the same weekend.
[16:39] #knownspace> SeanS: you see my point tho.
[16:39] #knownspace> Hippy: 'remove a rib ' idea, though
[16:40] #knownspace> SeanS: i bought a case of beer and chilled it. Drank 3.
[16:40] #knownspace> Lensman: Re corsets: I was watching a rather portly (he said, euphemistically) actress being interviewed re her role on the "Lark Rise to Candleford" series, which appears to be set in late Regency or early Victorian period. She said her character was pregnent that season, so she didn't expect to have to wear a corset. She was wrong; the costumer came up with a period "pregnency corset" that has, if I recall what she said, lacings on the sides t
[16:40] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, I was jet-lagged. . .
[16:40] #knownspace> Dan: "Free beer? Free food? Great people hanging out? I'm not leaving this room!" said Sean.
[16:41] #knownspace> Hippy: He was right
[16:41] #knownspace> SeanS: Hippy made me drink a bloody mary too early on saturday.
[16:41] #knownspace> Hippy: I'
[16:41] #knownspace> Dan: Well, I paraphhrased Sean, but that's nearly a direct quote.
[16:41] #knownspace> SeanS: not too far off anyway
[16:41] #knownspace> Lensman: Wow! Yeah, the idea that women in Victorian times had a rib removed, and with that state of medicine! Risking your life for fashion, that's dedication.
[16:41] #knownspace> Hippy: d never been to a con suite either
[16:42] #knownspace> Dan: Most cons have them, but I can't say that other cons have a con suite equal to this year's LibertyCon.
[16:42] #knownspace> SeanS: dan kept saying 'wait till the con suite opens up'. I had no idea what he was talking about till we walked in
[16:42] #knownspace> Dan: This year was extra-special.
[16:42] #knownspace> Hippy: However, I used to go to the bid parties and promise my bid for a gutload of beer
[16:42] #knownspace> SeanS: yeah uncle timmy said what 12 kegs
[16:42] #knownspace> Lensman: There are con suites and there are con suites. Good, bad and indifferent.
[16:43] #knownspace> Hippy: I wish you'
[16:43] #knownspace> Dan: Was it 12? I thought it was 10 of each of the 2 beers. I sit corrected!
[16:43] #knownspace> Hippy: 'd ben there, Lens
[16:43] #knownspace> SeanS: i remember that from the opening thing
[16:44] #knownspace> Lensman: Which con was it that had beer in the con suite? We have had visitors the past few years from the coasts who say they are very surprised to see ConQuesT is still serving beer in the con suite. I guess some or many cons have given it up for liability insurance reasons.
[16:44] #knownspace> SeanS: maybe it was 12 kegs of each but that seems excessive.
[16:44] #knownspace> Dan: Lens, given the state of medicine in Victorian times, it's a wonder that anyone survived a trip to a Doctor.
[16:44] #knownspace> GeorgeC: Ah, time to go, gents! See you on the List!
[16:44] #knownspace> Lensman: Thank you, Hippy. You were being a bit free with the typos there.
[16:44] #knownspace> SeanS: later george
[16:44] #knownspace> Dan: Bye, George!
[16:45] #knownspace> Lensman: Hippy: I wish I had had the chance to meet you face to face!
[16:45] #knownspace> Hippy: I wondered why you werewnt' there, but Sean explained the geography to me
[16:45] #knownspace> Dan: I do remember that Uncle Timmy said that by the Dead Dog party there was only one keg of each beer left.
[16:46] #knownspace> Lensman: Text chatting with online friends is nice, but it can't beat watching someone's face light up when they recognize you.
[16:46] #knownspace> Dan: Absolutely right, Lens!
[16:46] #knownspace> SeanS: That local lager was very good
[16:46] #knownspace> Hippy: Never mind. Texas WorldCon next year and if you can't cme I will make the effort to get up to Kansas
[16:47] #knownspace> Lensman: "Only one keg of each beer left" for the Dead Dog sounds like they ordered just the right amount.
[16:47] #knownspace> NickE: (WOW. What a fuckin run! 14 Gold. 1st ever 10,000m UK Gold!)
[16:47] #knownspace> Hippy: Oh, yes, Dan said 'I'm your publisher' and that kicked arse!
[16:47] #knownspace> Dan: Just yesterday Lyn was saying how much she wished we could afford to go to a con every month.
[16:47] #knownspace> SeanS: I agree with Lyn.
[16:48] #knownspace> Hippy: Only a Lotto win away!
[16:48] #knownspace> SeanS: no shit
[16:48] #knownspace> Lensman: Hippy: My financial situation would have to improve drastically by next year for me to be able to afford to go to WorldCon, but you'd be very welcome if you ever visit the Kansas City area.
[16:48] #knownspace> Dan: LOL! DJ, that was one of my best greeting lines ever! I'm so glad I thought of it before I opened my mouth when we first spoke to each other!
[16:49] #knownspace> Lensman: We've got plenty of spare bedrooms here.
[16:49] #knownspace> SeanS: the best way i can sum it up is I walked into the con areas and suddenly had 500 brand new best friends.
[16:49] #knownspace> Dan: 700
[16:49] #knownspace> SeanS: was it 700?
[16:49] #knownspace> Hippy: Wow
[16:49] #knownspace> SeanS: i apologize to the 200 i forgot.
[16:49] #knownspace> Dan: Next year will be a little less crowded, though. This was the 25 anniversary.
[16:49] #knownspace> Lensman: Sean, I'm glad you now understand it when we talk about how great it is to be at a real SF convention.
[16:50] #knownspace> Hippy: And I iidn
[16:50] #knownspace> Hippy: t buy a T-shirt :(
[16:50] #knownspace> SeanS: I was told by Tish that in a couple of years, if I keep coming, they would put me on a panel.
[16:51] #knownspace> Lensman: Did you e-mail them to see if there are any t-shirts left in your size? You may be able to order one by mail.
[16:51] #knownspace> Dan: I didn't buy that knife I wanted from Michael Z. Williamson. But Lyn bought a beautiful ring with that check she got me to autograph. LOL!
[16:51] #knownspace> NickE: (WOW. What a fuckin run! 14 Gold. 1st ever 10,000m UK Gold!)
[16:51] #knownspace> SeanS: Tish is one of the head program directors.
[16:51] #knownspace> NickE: oops
[16:51] #knownspace> NickE: not sure how that doubled
[16:51] #knownspace> Dan: Tish is a Goddess!
[16:52] #knownspace> NickE: re Cons, yep. bllody awesome
[16:52] #knownspace> Lensman: Deja vu...
[16:52] #knownspace> SeanS: yeah, i was with Lyn looking at the ring before she got you to autograph the check. ;)
[16:52] #knownspace> Dan: Deja Poo: The feeling that you've seen this shit before...
[16:52] #knownspace> NickE: LOL
[16:52] #knownspace> Hippy: Dan, is Lens's thought a good one? Could I get a T-shirt mailed?
[16:52] #knownspace> SeanS: Dan was at an autograph session at the time.
[16:53] #knownspace> SeanS: I have the email addy of the girl who was in charge of tshirts.
[16:53] #knownspace> Dan: You might be able to, but you'd better act fast. If there were any left, other people will be having the same idea.
[16:53] #knownspace> Lensman: Yeah, what Dan says.
[16:54] #knownspace> SeanS: hippy, i will forward you the message from her asking about color shirt. she should be able to hook you up if there are any left.
[16:55] #knownspace> Dan: Yeah, everyone at the table laughed at that. Janny Wortz & I were sitting there doing very little, Larry & Jerry had autograph lines going around the block, and this woman walks up with a blank check she wants me to sign... My wife, as I had to explain to Janny.
[16:56] #knownspace> Hippy: That was damn funn!
[16:56] #knownspace> Hippy: Thanks, Sean
[16:57] #knownspace> Dan: Janny is going to hit me up for a few book reviews. And Tish's husband Rich kept putting me next to Janet Morris on panels in the hope that she'd ask me to write something for one of her series. Which she did after the 2nd panel we were both on.
[16:58] #knownspace> SeanS: sent
[16:58] #knownspace> Hippy: Thanks, I
[16:58] #knownspace> Hippy: God!
[16:58] #knownspace> SeanS: you are god?
[16:58] #knownspace> Dan: And Lyn & I spent hours talking to the lady writer in the wheelchair on the Sunday & Monday. Her name escapes me at the moment.
[16:59] #knownspace> Hippy: will read it in dur course. I can
[16:59] #knownspace> SeanS: I should of booked 3 nights. live and learn
[16:59] #knownspace> Lensman: Ghod has cursed Hippy's keyboard.
[16:59] #knownspace> Hippy: t reply for some reason. I havd the SMTP settings correct, bu still can't reply
[17:00] #knownspace> SeanS: I have done my part. you have her email addy.
[17:00] #knownspace> Hippy: I shou;d've done thtt, Sean. I was the one flying in and out
[17:01] #knownspace> Hippy: You could sort of come and go as you pleased. Well, next time
[17:01] #knownspace> SeanS: DJ, it all worked out.
[17:01] #knownspace> Hippy: That it did!
[17:01] #knownspace> Dan: Yeah, we only learned to book from the Thursday to the Monday in the last year or so.
[17:02] #knownspace> Hippy: So, anyway, ronn, how
[17:02] #knownspace> Dan: Martindale! That was her last name!
[17:02] #knownspace> SeanS: I think Lensman is right, Ghod has cursed Hippy's keyboard.
[17:02] #knownspace> Hippy: s - oh, damn this keyboard! I feel like a praing mantis rsetting his watch!
[17:03] #knownspace> SeanS: heh
[17:03] #knownspace> dmac44: hippy: have you sacraficed anyhting to your keyboard? that might help.
[17:03] #knownspace> SeanS: tho to be honest, I was not joking about hippy having major vision problems. his glasses have glasses. :(
[17:04] #knownspace> Lensman: "A Praying Mantis resetting his watch". See now, this is why I enjoy chatting with SF fans! What a bemusing mental image.
[17:04] #knownspace> Dan: I feel the same way when I type on a laptop, DJ. My thumb keeps hitting the touchpad and making the cursor jump around the page.
[17:04] #knownspace> Dan: Someone needs to e-mail that line to Allan Dean Foster! LOL!
[17:04] #knownspace> Lensman: I thought Hippy's vision problems had been fixed, but perhaps not entirely?
[17:05] #knownspace> Lensman: A Thranx resetting his watch would be much less unlikely.
[17:05] #knownspace> SeanS: Hippy can obviously answer that better than I can.
[17:06] #knownspace> Lensman: Touchpads are the work of Satan.
[17:07] #knownspace> Dan: Touchpads built onto a keyboard, I'd agree. Touchpads as a seperate device? I loved the ones I used to have.
[17:07] #knownspace> Hippy: Indeed, Lens. Touchpads are exactly that
[17:08] #knownspace> Hippy: I should point out that I'm on my lady's laptop and not in Ballarat in the wee small hours poundng on an actual keyboafd
[17:08] #knownspace> ronn: [16:02] <Hippy> So, anyway, ronn, how
[17:08] #knownspace> ronn: Mm?
[17:08] #knownspace> Dan: I use a trackball, left-handed nowadays. My co-workers suffer from dropped-jaws when they see me use a mouse left-handed and the number-pad right-handed at the same time.
[17:08] #knownspace> Hippy: The vision means I can't see what Im writing as I write it, though
[17:09] #knownspace> Hippy: I forget, ronn, I'm sad to say
[17:09] #knownspace> Hippy: Dan, such an acgion is immorally competent
[17:10] #knownspace> Dan: Oops! Thunder from a clear blue sky... If the clouds roll over this way, I'm going to wish my Dad hadn't insisted I kept my boat over in his barn. :)
[17:10] #knownspace> dmac44: I've got to go, see you all next month.
[17:10] #knownspace> SeanS: later dmac
[17:10] #knownspace> Dan: Bye, dmac!
[17:10] #knownspace> NickE: ttfn
[17:11] #knownspace> Lensman: Bye dmac
[17:11] #knownspace> ronn: I loved my ALPS Glidepoint keyboard with the built-in touchpad. Like Mr. Jinks, I hate meeces to pieces . . .
[17:11] #knownspace> Hippy: LOL! Now theres a T-shirt!!
[17:12] #knownspace> Lensman: I loved my trackball until it quit working. Now I use a laser mouse, it's fine. I find trying to use other peoples' laptops with a touchpad an exercise in frustration. Not sure what I'd do if I had a laptop myself.
[17:12] #knownspace> ronn: Dan> Oops! Thunder from a clear blue sky...
[17:12] #knownspace> ronn: Started LOUDly here about this time yesterday. Didn't stay clear long.
[17:12] #knownspace> Dan: I need to get Lyn one of those indestructable, waterproof, beer & wine-proof keyboards. I've used this keyboard for over 5 years, she's gone through 7 in that same time.
[17:13] #knownspace> SeanS: I understand the beer and wine proof concept with Lyn ;)
[17:13] #knownspace> SeanS: She is fantastic.
[17:13] #knownspace> Dan: Of course, I've melted some of the keys on mine by nodding off with a lit cigarette.
[17:13] #knownspace> Lensman: I'd still love to have one of those old keyboards that had a stubby joystick in between the keys, so you didn't have to take your hand off the keys to use the mouse pointer. I hate the delay from moving from mouse to keyboard and vice versa.
[17:13] #knownspace> ronn: The ALPS keyboard worked for years. Until long after they stopped making them. :(
[17:14] #knownspace> SeanS: touchpoint
[17:14] #knownspace> SeanS: google it... I am sure someone has a supply
[17:14] #knownspace> Lensman: "Touchpoint" is that what the stubby joystick is called?
[17:14] #knownspace> SeanS: yep
[17:14] #knownspace> Lensman: Thanks Sean!
[17:15] #knownspace> SeanS: nw
[17:15] #knownspace> SeanS: no worries
[17:15] #knownspace> Lensman: What is an ALPS keyboard?
[17:15] #knownspace> Hippy: I've never sen such a thing
[17:15] #knownspace> ronn: That was one of the great things about that ALPS keyboard: no moving around. Esp. when holding the keyboard in your lap.
[17:15] #knownspace> ronn: Brand name.
[17:15] #knownspace> SeanS: and on to the Tech part of the chat ;)
[17:16] #knownspace> Dan: Lens, someone makes a tiny little joystick that mounts on the center key of a standard keyboard number pad. Cheap, and it works. Not sure I'd like it, but it is a possibility.
[17:17] #knownspace> SeanS: i can almost guarantee that he can find one on ebay.
[17:17] #knownspace> Hippy: I love this country
[17:17] #knownspace> SeanS: tho i remember the touch point keyboards mainly as laptop keyboards.
[17:17] #knownspace> Lensman: I'm seeing "Trackpoint" when I do a Google search.
[17:17] #knownspace> SeanS: and specifically ibm
[17:18] #knownspace> Dan: Back when I used to play flight sims, I loved using a joystick in my right hand and the touchpad with my left. But that was decades ago, now.
[17:18] #knownspace> Hippy: I paid $13.94 fof a dozen beers last week. God Bless America
[17:18] #knownspace> Dan: I paid $16 for q 30-pack today, DJ. But I do drink the cheap plonk.
[17:18] #knownspace> Dan: :)
[17:19] #knownspace> Hippy: By whci I mena, look what you can buy here. God Save The Queen is what I really think
[17:19] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, I'm seeing images of IBM keyboards.
[17:20] #knownspace> SeanS: http://www.amazon.com/ThinkPad-USB-Keyboard-with-TrackPoint/dp/B002ONCC6G
[17:20] #knownspace> Hippy: A 30 pack of what? Good God
[17:20] #knownspace> Hippy: To everyone else on the chat, this is all Niven-related. We promise that
[17:20] #knownspace> Lensman: Finest Moose Piss beer!
[17:20] #knownspace> Lensman: LOL Hippy
[17:21] #knownspace> SeanS: i guess they are calling them track points. maybe ibm has the name touchpoint copyrighted.
[17:21] #knownspace> Lensman: How may of Larry's early stories do *not* have a reference to drinking? Tanj few.
[17:21] #knownspace> Dan: Natural Light beer. The cheapest, highest alcohol-content beer I've found that tastes halfway worth drinking. Not a touch on Guiness, but still for the amount I put away it isn't bad.
[17:22] #knownspace> SeanS: yeah... I had a couple before we hit the con suite on saturday. then a guy gave me a drink out of his horn.
[17:22] #knownspace> SeanS: I think I was at his room party the night before
[17:22] #knownspace> ronn: [16:18] <Dan> Back when I used to play flight sims, I loved using a joystick in my right hand and the touchpad with my left. But that was decades ago, now
[17:22] #knownspace> ronn: Ahem. Scroll down to #26:
[17:22] #knownspace> SeanS: it was getting kind of drunk out.
[17:22] #knownspace> ronn: http://www.boredpanda.com/vintage-ads/
[17:23] #knownspace> Dan: I bought a 30 pack for me for the weekend, and 2 12-packs of Steel Reserve for Lyn. SR is the closest thing we've found to the taste of good British beers, and she loves it.
[17:23] #knownspace> SeanS: I will look for that then
[17:23] #knownspace> ronn: I've never seen rain with a high alcohol content . . .
[17:23] #knownspace> SeanS: dang EPA
[17:24] #knownspace> fredskuentz: hated them ever since Ghostbusters
[17:24] #knownspace> SeanS: heh
[17:24] #knownspace> Dan: SR is a bit much for me. The taste is rather fruit-filled, and it is a bit stronger than my Natty Lights.
[17:25] #knownspace> SeanS: fruit filled i probably would not like
[17:25] #knownspace> Dan: Well, fruity seemed to have negetave connotations I wanted to avoid, LOL!
[17:26] #knownspace> SeanS: gotcha
[17:26] #knownspace> Hippy: You turn away for tow minites. Hi, Fred
[17:26] #knownspace> Hippy: Steel Reserve, eh? I shall check that out. It will bear this st Louis lager I
[17:26] #knownspace> Hippy: m drinking
[17:26] #knownspace> Dan: I prefer coffee-flavored coffee and beer-flavored beer. LOL!
[17:27] #knownspace> Hippy: I might as well SMS these posts!!!
[17:27] #knownspace> SeanS: getting slightly back on topic.... anyone else planning on being up for the mars (maybe) landing?
[17:27] #knownspace> Dan: I've forgotten what time EST the landing is at. I keep seeing quotes in Pacific time. I'm in Georgia, not California, LOL!
[17:28] #knownspace> SeanS: 1:31am
[17:28] #knownspace> SeanS: i was thinking of turning on nasa tv at 1am
[17:28] #knownspace> Hippy: Dam.you took the woeds right out of my mouth - althouh not foe Elton John's reasons
[17:28] #knownspace> fredskuentz: Hey Hippy
[17:28] #knownspace> SeanS: thats meatloaf
[17:28] #knownspace> Dan: Possibly I will still be awake at that ungodly hour tomorrow night.
[17:29] #knownspace> Hippy: So it is, Sean!'
[17:29] #knownspace> Hippy: If I were home. . .
[17:29] #knownspace> Hippy: So what is landind on Mars?
[17:30] #knownspace> SeanS: the curiosity rover
[17:30] #knownspace> Hippy: Where does that name come from?
[17:30] #knownspace> Dan: DJ, you *are* home, you just also have another home that is very far away.
[17:30] #knownspace> Lensman: Did the older Mars rovers finally quit working?
[17:31] #knownspace> SeanS: i think one of the older rovers is still jamming. not bad for a 6 month mission
[17:31] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah, Dan that has become a long story. . .
[17:31] #knownspace> ronn: Here ya go:
[17:31] #knownspace> ronn: News release: 2012-227 Aug. 4, 2012
[17:31] #knownspace> ronn: Mars Tugging on Approaching NASA Rover Curiosity
[17:31] #knownspace> Lensman: Yeah, it's incredible how they exceeded their expected lifespan. Would that we all could exceed it by that margin!
[17:31] #knownspace> ronn: The full version of this story with accompanying images is at:
[17:31] #knownspace> ronn: http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.cfm?release=2012-227&cid=release_2012-227
[17:31] #knownspace> ronn: PASADENA, Calif. - The gravitational tug of Mars is now pulling NASA's car-size geochemistry laboratory, Curiosity, in for a suspenseful landing in less than 40 hours.
[17:31] #knownspace> ronn: "After flying more than eight months and 350 million miles since launch, the Mars Science Laboratory spacecraft is now right on target to fly through the eye of the needle that is our target at the top of the Mars atmosphere," said Mission Manager Arthur Amador of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif.
[17:31] #knownspace> ronn: The spacecraft is healthy and on course for delivering the mission's Curiosity rover close to a Martian mountain at 10:31 p.m. Sunday, Aug. 5 PDT (1:31 a.m. Monday, Aug. 6 EDT). That's the time a signal confirming safe landing could reach Earth, give or take about a minute for the spacecraft's adjustments to sense changeable atmospheric conditions.
[17:31] #knownspace> ronn: The only way a safe-landing confirmation can arrive during that first opportunity is via a relay by NASA's Mars Odyssey orbiter. Curiosity will not be communicating directly with Earth as it lands, because Earth will set beneath the Martian horizon from Curiosity's perspective about two minutes before the landing.
[17:31] #knownspace> ronn: "We are expecting Odyssey to relay good news," said Steve Sell of the JPL engineering team that developed and tested the mission's complicated "sky crane" landing system. "That moment has been more than eight years in the making."
[17:31] #knownspace> ronn: A dust storm in southern Mars being monitored by NASA's Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter appears to be dissipating. "Mars is cooperating by providing good weather for landing," said JPL's Ashwin Vasavada, deputy project scientist for Curiosity.
[17:32] #knownspace> ronn: Curiosity was approaching Mars at about 8,000 mph (about 3,600 meters per second) Saturday morning. By the time the spacecraft hits the top of Mars' atmosphere, about seven minutes before touchdown, gravity will accelerate it to about 13,200 mph (5,900 meters per second).
[17:32] #knownspace> ronn: (Sorry bout the lengthy cut'n'paste . . .
[17:32] #knownspace> Dan: Look at me. I have two homes in Georgia, a home in Tennessee, a home in New Mexico, and a home in England. Of course, I only own the one here, but I can be at home all over the world.
[17:33] #knownspace> Lensman: Thank you for the lengthy cut-n-paste, Ronn.
[17:33] #knownspace> SeanS: You have one in Kentucky as well, Dan. ;)
[17:34] #knownspace> Dan: Quite a nice piece of information, ronn. Thanks!
[17:34] #knownspace> Dan: Thank you, Sean!
[17:34] #knownspace> ronn: Actually the whole JPL news release (available at the link) is at least twice that long . . .
[17:35] #knownspace> Lensman: I was thinking about looking at online news re the Curiosity rover but you saved me the trouble.
[17:35] #knownspace> Lensman: Dan: Well if you ever need a home-away-from-home in Eastern Kansas, just drop by!
[17:35] #knownspace> ronn: . . . but I cut it off after the most relevant part.
[17:36] #knownspace> SeanS: I can honestly say that Dan and Lyn are exactly as they are on the phone and online. I can not say that about other people I have met online.
[17:36] #knownspace> Dan: Thank you, Lens! That is most kind of you.
[17:36] #knownspace> Hippy: And, if country Victoria is your go, wrll, I'm only an email away
[17:37] #knownspace> Lensman: "Curiosity" does seem to be a rather different name from NASA's usual naming pattern, atho it certainly does seem appropriate.
[17:37] #knownspace> ronn: That was part of the release that arrived here via e-mail about (now) 3.5 hours ago. Anyone can go to the JPL site and sign up to get those mailings . . .
[17:37] #knownspace> Lensman: I signe up for SpaceX's e-mail newsletter.
[17:37] #knownspace> ronn: It reflects your attitude about the difference from the usual pattern . . . ;)
[17:38] #knownspace> Hippy: Yes, but is there a literary reference to 'Curiosity'?
[17:38] #knownspace> Hippy: I mean, I want the '
[17:38] #knownspace> Dan: "I am what I am and that's all what I am." I find it is far easier to just be myself no matter where I go or who I am with. Saves trouble trying to remember aliases. LOL!
[17:38] #knownspace> Hippy: Tweel' rover
[17:38] #knownspace> ronn: w.r.t. deceased felines?
[17:39] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, tha's positive ronn!
[17:39] #knownspace> Lensman: Wikipedia says: Between March 23–29, 2009, the general public ranked nine finalist names through a public poll on the NASA website.[31] On May 27, 2009, the winning name was announced to be Curiosity. It was submitted by a sixth-grader from Kansas, Clara Ma, in an essay contest.
[17:39] #knownspace> ronn: Hippy, have you yet figured out why hitting the opening quote is equivalent to sending the unfinished message? Sounds weird . . .
[17:40] #knownspace> Dan: "Heisenberg was astounded to discover that the cat was neither dead, nor in the box at all, but at large in his laboratory and highly pissed-off at the entire experience...
[17:41] #knownspace> ronn: First literary reference I came up with . . . :|
[17:42] #knownspace> SeanS: not knowing what clients everyone is using, I will ask if anyone noticed if we went to more than 20 people?
[17:42] #knownspace> Dan: Oh wow, I need to find a story to use that line in! LOL!
[17:42] #knownspace> Hippy: Ronn, I have sussed it out. I stretch too far for the apostophe on this stupid Munchkin interface colon righy parenthesis
[17:42] #knownspace> Dan: Did not notice, Sean.
[17:42] #knownspace> fredskuentz: I'm on LimeChat and I notice nuttink
[17:43] #knownspace> Lensman: Dan: Where is the Heisenberg quote from? At first I thought it was a quote from Heinlein's THE DOOR INTO SUMMER.
[17:43] #knownspace> Hippy: Thats wise if we go to trial, Fred
[17:43] #knownspace> SeanS: Lensman pointed out to me a couple of months ago that he could not get in and there were 20 in at the time.
[17:43] #knownspace> ronn: This morning I was lying down but not quite asleep when I heard a bird at the bird feeder, followed shortly by first one cat then the other climbing over my pillow on their way to the room where window outside of which the bird feeder is located . . .
[17:43] #knownspace> Dan: Lens, I made it up myself. I do that a lot, LOL!
[17:44] #knownspace> fredskuentz: So you're saying that eventually Sheen will drive so many people out of the list that this place won't be able to contain all the outcasts?
[17:44] #knownspace> SeanS: I looked through the less than well documented config file and found a connection value for 20. changed it to 300.
[17:44] #knownspace> ronn: I'm using ChatZilla. Right now it claims 16 users.
[17:44] #knownspace> Lensman: Dan: Okay. It seemed like coming in on the middle of a conversation. :)
[17:44] #knownspace> fredskuentz: LOL
[17:44] #knownspace> fredskuentz: LimeChat says 15+n
[17:45] #knownspace> Lensman: Ah, so that's why I couldn't get on. Thanks for investigating, Sean!
[17:45] #knownspace> Dan: I do that frequently, too. LOL!
[17:45] #knownspace> ronn: Lens: It always does unless you've been here from the beginning. Constantly.
[17:45] #knownspace> SeanS: i have to have someone to point out a problem before i can look so kudo's to Lensman
[17:45] #knownspace> ronn: Oh, so someone couldn't get on?
[17:46] #knownspace> Lensman: Me me me! It's all about ME, ronn!
[17:46] #knownspace> Lensman: ;-)
[17:46] #knownspace> Dan: Well, Ed, Larry, & Jim would have made it 18. Who else was herem but left?
[17:46] #knownspace> SeanS: it was 19 when i left for the beach for a bit
[17:47] #knownspace> ronn: U have a beach?
[17:47] #knownspace> SeanS: yep
[17:47] #knownspace> Dan: Sean has a very cool place to live.
[17:48] #knownspace> Dan: As do I, for that matter, but for different reasons. Where Sean has a beach, I have a forest.
[17:49] #knownspace> fredskuentz: I have a mountain
[17:49] #knownspace> Dan: That's way cool too, Fred!
[17:49] #knownspace> SeanS: not many people pulled in today tho... jaycee's doing the annual poker run on the river. everybody running getting cards.
[17:49] #knownspace> Lensman: We live near a golf course and small lake. Neither of which I use.
[17:50] #knownspace> Dan: Ought to give the lake some time, methinks, Lens.
[17:50] #knownspace> SeanS: I am a very nautical kind of guy.
[17:50] #knownspace> Akiraa: hello
[17:50] #knownspace> SeanS: hi akiraa
[17:50] #knownspace> Lensman: Welcome, Akiraa
[17:51] #knownspace> SeanS: larry and ed were in earlier... you should of spoken up.
[17:51] #knownspace> Akiraa: this rover business gets me thinking: would a mission to mars make sense purely to be able to drive rovers in real time?
[17:51] #knownspace> Dan: But golf courses? Plow 'em up and plant 'em in soybeans, I say. LOL! Needless to say, my opinin seems to piss off most of my friends who enjoy playing golf. Don't know why... :)
[17:51] #knownspace> Lensman: I have enjoyed occasional boating, but not enuff to buy and maintain a boat. We used to go fishing at the local lake (not here) when I was a kid, but I never actually enjoyed that.
[17:52] #knownspace> Akiraa: driving them in real time would allow you to collect massively more data
[17:52] #knownspace> ronn: Hippy> Ronn, I have sussed it out. I stretch too far for the apostophe on this stupid Munchkin interface colon righy parenthesis
[17:52] #knownspace> ronn: I thought as much. ChatZilla uses ctrl-enter rather than just plain "enter"
[17:52] #knownspace> fredskuentz: Like they drive the Mars rovers on The Big Bang Theory?
[17:52] #knownspace> Lensman: Now, water skiing... that I enjoyed! Local lake is so small that I doubt it would be much good for that, tho.
[17:52] #knownspace> ronn: fsk: into a ditch?
[17:52] #knownspace> Akiraa: fredskuentz: drive them remotely from mars stationary orbit
[17:52] #knownspace> fredskuentz: in real time, to impress a chick
[17:52] #knownspace> Dan: Akiraa, you'd be amazed at the sheer total amount of extra data real live people can collect on such a manned mission.
[17:52] #knownspace> fredskuentz: into a ditch
[17:53] #knownspace> SeanS: my standard saying about boats: a boat is a hole in the water surrounded by wood, metal, or fiberglass into which you pour money. The two best days of your life are the day you get the boat and the day you get rid of it."
[17:53] #knownspace> SeanS: lots of fun tho.
[17:53] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry had an article in, I think it was SCATTERBRAIN that suggested funding rovers (was it Lunar rovers?) by selling time slots in which you could remotely control the rover. Interesting idea.
[17:54] #knownspace> Akiraa: Dan: they don't even need to walk into spacesuits, merely drive a few good rovers from up close
[17:54] #knownspace> Akiraa: most of the time, the earth-operated rover moved 1-2 feet a day max
[17:54] #knownspace> Lensman: Control of a Mars rover from Earth would be much more problematic. What's the minimum lightspeed delay? About 6-7 minutes?
[17:54] #knownspace> Akiraa: from 5 to 40min
[17:55] #knownspace> Akiraa: round trip time
[17:55] #knownspace> Dan: I do ave a soft spot for rovers. Moreso since Daddy told me that he actually made parts for the Lunar Rovers. My father's fingerprints are on parts of a machine that is sitting on the moon right now? That still gobsmacks me!
[17:55] #knownspace> SeanS: If you are going to the effort to get man in mars orbit to do telepresence... might as well just land
[17:55] #knownspace> Akiraa: landing and taking off again is costly too in terms of fuel
[17:55] #knownspace> ronn: Dan: I hope he wore gloves . . .
[17:55] #knownspace> Akiraa: and payload
[17:56] #knownspace> Akiraa: they could just park in a high orbit
[17:56] #knownspace> SeanS: fuel can be made on the surface
[17:56] #knownspace> Lensman: Sean: I think I've seen that "boat" quote from you before? But it's well worth repeating!
[17:56] #knownspace> Akiraa: sure, you can make fuel on the surface and ship is back to orbit :)
[17:57] #knownspace> ronn: Akiraa> landing and taking off again is costly too in terms of fuel
[17:57] #knownspace> ronn: PARTICULARLY if you have to take your ascent/return fuel along from launch.
[17:57] #knownspace> SeanS: Lensman, I am sure you have.
[17:57] #knownspace> Akiraa: ronn: you can do a mars-direct style mission, except the humans never land, they park in orbit and go back home with the fuel generated on the surface
[17:57] #knownspace> Dan: ronn, a machinest can't wear gloves for safety reasons. Might get the gloves caught in the lathe.
[17:57] #knownspace> Lensman: Akiraa: Yeah, I remember being startled at how slow the Mars rovers were moving. Not exactly exploring a lot of ground! But then, I suppose if they went fast they'd get permanently stuck rather quickly.
[17:58] #knownspace> ronn: SeanS points to zubrins book The Case for Mars
[17:58] #knownspace> ronn: Who made that big a case? Samsonite?
[17:58] #knownspace> SeanS: ronn, take 4 tons of hydrogen and make the return fuel from the CO2 in the mars atmosphere
[17:58] #knownspace> SeanS: heh... smartass ;)
[17:58] #knownspace> Akiraa: yeah, you only need to carry 5% of your fuel mass with you and produce the rest on the surface
[17:59] #knownspace> Lensman: Dan: Ohhh, I'm jealous! Even if it was just your dad and not you personally.
[17:59] #knownspace> Dan: ronn *is* a Professional Smartass, after all. LOL!
[17:59] #knownspace> Akiraa: you also need to bring along a powerplant (like a nuclear reactor)
[17:59] #knownspace> Akiraa: and that adds weight too
[18:00] #knownspace> Akiraa: you could also potentially try to collect water and get your hydrogen that way
[18:00] #knownspace> Lensman: LOL! Ronn shoots, he scores!
[18:00] #knownspace> Akiraa: one big problem with mars direct is that heavy nuclear reactor
[18:00] #knownspace> Lensman: (We are professionals, don't try this at home!)
[18:00] #knownspace> Dan: Lens, Dad never mentioned it ultil last year, and we watched every NASA mission live on TV when I was a kid. I think his alzheimers might have made Dad forget that he signed non-disclosure papers back when he worked in Oak Ridge.
[18:01] #knownspace> ronn: Dan: We have that in common: both of our fathers were machinists!
[18:01] #knownspace> ronn: And I didn't know that about yours: figured maybe you were talking about him assembling it in the clean room, as I figure most of the fingerprints put on at an earlier step would have been cleaned off before then . . .
[18:01] #knownspace> Akiraa: another problem is you need a rather large rocket, capable of putting 100 tons in orbit
[18:01] #knownspace> SeanS: Dan: I know.
[18:01] #knownspace> Lensman: I love listening to Robert Zubrin. There's a guy not afraid to tell it like it is!
[18:01] #knownspace> Akiraa: but other than that, zubrin's plan is the best way we know to get to mars
[18:02] #knownspace> Akiraa: way better than what nasa was cooking :)
[18:02] #knownspace> Lensman: My favorite Zubrin quote: The purpose of spaceships is to actually travel *across* space and go to new worlds. Not to hang out in space and observe the health effects of doing so."
[18:02] #knownspace> Akiraa: think: build moon base and launch from the moon to mars
[18:02] #knownspace> Dan: Knowing Dad, somewhere on hose parts he scribed his initals where no one could find them without an x-ray scan, LOL!
[18:03] #knownspace> Lensman: Don't see any point at stopping at Luna if Mars is your destination. Seems like a waste of resources to build a moon base.
[18:03] #knownspace> Akiraa: zubrin showed that even if the moon had free fuel lying on it, it would still not make sense to land and collect it to go to mars
[18:03] #knownspace> SeanS: yeah the heavy lift that we dont have is the only thing thats really keeping a mars mission from happening
[18:03] #knownspace> ronn: Dan> Knowing Dad, somewhere on hose parts he scribed his initals where no one could find them without an x-ray scan, LOL!
[18:03] #knownspace> ronn: There is that!
[18:03] #knownspace> SeanS: that and the will to do it.
[18:03] #knownspace> Akiraa: landing on the moon uses a lot of fuel by itself (no atmosphere)
[18:04] #knownspace> Lensman: Re a mission to Mars with current tech: Have we solved the radiation problem?
[18:04] #knownspace> Akiraa: Lensman: yes, it was never a problem
[18:04] #knownspace> SeanS: zubrin mentioned that but i can not remember his solution.
[18:05] #knownspace> Akiraa: if there's a solar flare, retreat to the middle of the ship
[18:05] #knownspace> Akiraa: store all the food around that small room
[18:05] #knownspace> SeanS: thats right.
[18:05] Jim has joined #knownspace
[18:05] #knownspace> Dan: Wasn't it Zubrin who suggested setting up a perpetual Mars/Earth shuttling vehicle or two that missions coulds attach to going one way or the other?
[18:05] #knownspace> Dan: WB, Jim!
[18:05] #knownspace> Lensman: Personally I think we should wait until we have a better propulsion system. A six month-- or more-- flight one way is too darn long to spend where you'll be exposed to the hazards of radiation from space.
[18:05] #knownspace> SeanS: basically, Dan
[18:05] #knownspace> Jim: I am back.
[18:05] #knownspace> SeanS: cool beans
[18:05] #knownspace> Akiraa: mars cycler?
[18:06] #knownspace> Akiraa: you still need to expend fuel
[18:06] #knownspace> SeanS: I would climb on board a mars shot right now.
[18:06] #knownspace> Dan: I think that's what the writer called it, Akiraa.
[18:06] #knownspace> Akiraa: the only advantage may be simpler docking/undocking vehicles
[18:06] #knownspace> Akiraa: you don't save any energy (you waste a little)
[18:06] #knownspace> Akiraa: and cycler routes are slow, too slow for humans
[18:06] #knownspace> Lensman: Well solar flare is what I meant by radiation hazard. Do we really have the ability to protect astronauts from that? Is it realistic to think a spaceship we can afford to build could carry enough water for proper protection?
[18:06] #knownspace> Akiraa: human trajectories are a little faster
[18:07] #knownspace> Hippy: Six months was nothing to the people who settled Australia
[18:07] #knownspace> Dan: What would the difference in flight times be if one couls use a NERVA or even an old-fashioned Orion?
[18:07] #knownspace> SeanS: yeah akiraa 6 month trip every 2 years.
[18:07] #knownspace> fredskuentz: "Personally I think we should wait until we have a better propulsion system. A six month-- or more-- flight one way is too darn long to spend where you'll be exposed to the hazards of radiation from space."
[18:07] #knownspace> fredskuentz: I offered that opinion at ASU and was corrected by a professor that there is no radiation in space
[18:08] #knownspace> Jim: I agree with Fred and Lensman.
[18:08] #knownspace> fredskuentz: it's all collected in the van allen belt
[18:08] #knownspace> Akiraa: the advantage of the 6 month flight is being able to do free-return
[18:08] #knownspace> Lensman: NERVA, or one of the newer plasma drives. Yeah. Standard chemical rocket "boost for a few minutes then coast the rest of the way" just isn't fast enough.
[18:08] #knownspace> fredskuentz: and once you get past that, it's all clear and you're home free
[18:08] #knownspace> Akiraa: with the fast 1-month trip, if the engine cuts out you're dead
[18:08] #knownspace> Akiraa: you exit the solar system
[18:09] #knownspace> ronn: fredskuentz> "Personally I think we should wait until we have a better propulsion system. A six month-- or more-- flight one way is too darn long to spend where you'll be exposed to the hazards of radiation from space."
[18:09] #knownspace> ronn: I offered that opinion at ASU and was corrected by a professor that there is no radiation in space
[18:09] #knownspace> ronn: Presumably Dr. Van Allen was no longer there. Is his belt still on display?
[18:09] #knownspace> SeanS: 6 month trip is the best way to go.
[18:09] #knownspace> Dan: Fred, he forgot about cosmic rays, solar flares and other random stuff? Or he thought that tiny little Earth's Van Allen belts clean all of space of anything dangerous?
[18:09] #knownspace> fredskuentz: I think he got his space knowledge from Voyage To The Bottom of the Sea (theatrical)
[18:10] #knownspace> Hippy: LOL!
[18:10] #knownspace> Dan: Ah! That *would* explain it!
[18:10] #knownspace> SeanS: yeah... that works for LEO
[18:10] #knownspace> Hippy: Anyway, that was the Irwin Allen belt
[18:10] #knownspace> fredskuentz: hah
[18:10] #knownspace> Dan: LOL!
[18:10] #knownspace> SeanS: basically
[18:11] #knownspace> Dan: "Holy flaming radiation, Batman!"
[18:11] #knownspace> Jim: :-o
[18:11] #knownspace> Lensman: Hey, you can fire a nuclear missile up to set the Van Allen radiation belt on fire! (or to put out the fire?) But you have to sail halfway around the world first, because you have to launch the missile from just the right spot to hit a belt that circles the entire earth. I know this is true because the "Voyage to the Botttom of the Sea" pilot said so!
[18:11] #knownspace> fredskuentz: so many of my teachers just needed to be cashiered and working the window at Chick Fil A
[18:11] #knownspace> Jim: Same here!
[18:11] #knownspace> SeanS: no argument
[18:11] #knownspace> Lensman: LOL Irwin Allen belt.
[18:12] #knownspace> Dan: I get the feeling that if anyone had ever tried to explain reality to Irwin Allen, he's just have shrugged and said, "but it'll make a nice visual effects shot, so we'll do it my way..."
[18:12] #knownspace> fredskuentz: Also, there's that great quote about how life on Earth won't be able to stand it if the temperature goes over, what, 140°?
[18:12] #knownspace> fredskuentz: gee, ya think?
[18:12] #knownspace> Akiraa: there are some extremophiles
[18:12] #knownspace> Lensman: Fearlessly defying the laws of physics...
[18:12] #knownspace> SeanS: i go to spas at 140
[18:12] #knownspace> Jim: At Chick-Fil-A there were more straight men looking to see lesbians kiss than there were protesting gays and lesbians.
[18:12] #knownspace> Akiraa: and crustaceans living near thermal vents can stand high heat
[18:13] #knownspace> Lensman: Not to mention thermophile bacteria living at very close to the boiling point of water.
[18:13] #knownspace> SeanS: there is a chick fil a here but i did not drive across town to check it out.
[18:13] #knownspace> Lensman: In hot springs pools at Yellowstone, for one place.
[18:14] #knownspace> Dan: The factory where I work has Summertime indoor temps ranging from 120F in the floor to 225F on the catwalks up against the roof.
[18:14] #knownspace> Dan: Needless to say, those catwalks don't get used muct except in the Winter.
[18:15] #knownspace> ronn: Did the latter save you from having to have a coffeemaker in the building?
[18:15] #knownspace> Lensman: Wonder if all this free publicity has increased Chic-fil-A's business. I've never eaten there, personally.
[18:15] #knownspace> SeanS: they had record sales
[18:15] #knownspace> Lensman: Didn't even realize it was a fast food restaurant until the recent political stories.
[18:15] #knownspace> SeanS: tis good food actually
[18:16] #knownspace> Jim: I am not a chicken person; I just like contravercy.
[18:16] #knownspace> Dan: ronn, I should suggest that to Management as a cost-cutting idea. Perhaps they should send the useless managers after the coffee at noon in July?
[18:16] #knownspace> ronn: Lens:
[18:16] #knownspace> ronn: "Chick-fil-A appears to have set a company record in sales on Wednesday, a day on which Americans were encouraged to show their support for the fast-food restaurant whose leadership has drawn both criticism and praise in recent weeks for its opposition to same-sex marriage.
[18:16] #knownspace> ronn: The privately held company declined to give specific sales figures but released a statement to the Los Angeles Times confirming that frenzied sales of chicken sandwiches and cross-cut waffle fries had made for a record-setting day."
[18:16] #knownspace> ronn: http://snipurl.com/23rba8n
[18:16] #knownspace> Lensman: Jim likes controversy? Alert the media!
[18:17] #knownspace> ronn: ur welcome.
[18:17] #knownspace> ronn: Isn't "useless managers" redundant? :D
[18:17] #knownspace> SeanS: chick fil a appreciation day you could barely get in the stores. kiss in day, where the liberals showed up, there was graffiti and meanness... go Jim.
[18:17] #knownspace> Jim: I need to know how to spell media first.
[18:17] #knownspace> Lensman: ronn: Yes, they are. :)
[18:18] #knownspace> fredskuentz: I would never go to a chick fil a
[18:18] #knownspace> Dan: Lens, I have gone to that restaruant a time or two in the past. Not very good food, really. Makes McDonnalds look like a 5-star French restaurant.
[18:18] #knownspace> fredskuentz: but that's 'cause they cook everything in peanut oil
[18:19] #knownspace> Jim: Excellent reason; I have had friends cook an entire turkey in peanut oil.
[18:19] #knownspace> fredskuentz: gah
[18:20] #knownspace> SeanS: I cook turkeys in peanut oil... Fred seems to be allergic or something
[18:20] #knownspace> fredskuentz: yes
[18:20] #knownspace> fredskuentz: I was laid up for 3 weeks this summer from ingesting some
[18:20] #knownspace> Jim: SeanS, do you use a caudron like these guys did?
[18:20] #knownspace> ronn: AFAIK there's not one close enough for me to have gone either day.
[18:20] #knownspace> ronn: (Indeed after going to the store (closer) on Wednesday I was laid up on Friday . . . )
[18:20] #knownspace> SeanS: yes
[18:21] #knownspace> fredskuentz: chick fil a is a long drive from here too. If I wanted to commit sepuku, there's a Five Guys much closer
[18:21] #knownspace> Jim: Just as long as you do it outside!!!
[18:22] #knownspace> Jim: Italians make the best "junk" food.
[18:22] #knownspace> SeanS: of course. I am not a moron.
[18:23] #knownspace> ronn: Jim> Just as long as you do it outside!!!
[18:23] #knownspace> ronn: Use a cauldron or commit seppuku?
[18:23] #knownspace> Jim: :-0
[18:23] #knownspace> Dan: Jim, I find Chinese food much more appealing than Italian, but that's just me.
[18:24] #knownspace> Jim: caudron and outside
[18:25] #knownspace> ronn: Spreading plastic on the floor suffices for the latter.
[18:26] #knownspace> Dan: For Lyn & I, the preferences are Tex-Mex, then Chinese, then Pizza & sub sandwiches, then Italian, and then the local BBQ masters. After that, Wendy's tops the list of fast food places we are willing to give our cash to.
[18:26] #knownspace> Lensman: I love dark meat chicken, but I prefer to grill my own, using Mrs. Dash Garlic & Herbs sprinkled on the skinless pieces. I've never tasted any fast food chicken remotely as good. I don't understand how KFC stays in business; I don't think their chicken is that good. Oh, it's not inedible, but if you want fast food fried chicken I far prefer Church's or Brown's Chicken.
[18:26] #knownspace> SeanS: I prefer dark meat chicken as well.
[18:27] #knownspace> Jim: Lensman, Eric Cartman keeps KFC in business.
[18:28] #knownspace> Dan: I have observed the quality of KFC food to have gone downhill in the last 2 decades. In the '60s & '70s they were really quite good. Now, they aren't very good at all.
[18:28] #knownspace> Jim: For some reason this Eris window is using up a large percentage of my processor's time and memory.
[18:28] #knownspace> Jim: the dude died
[18:29] #knownspace> Dan: Hail Eris! All Hail Discordia! Which Dude? The Dude?
[18:29] #knownspace> Jim: Col. Sanders that is; when he died KFC went downhill.
[18:30] #knownspace> Dan: Ah, yes! I agree completely!
[18:31] #knownspace> ronn: You'd think they'd be out of him by now . . .
[18:31] #knownspace> Dan: I've noticed that even my beloved Wendy's had lost a few quality points since Dave Thomas bit the big one.
[18:31] #knownspace> Lensman: Never got the reference to "Eris" in the Illuminati game. Is that from the ILLUMINATUS trilogy?
[18:31] #knownspace> Hippy: As doI,but I'm Mr Agreeable
[18:32] #knownspace> Dan: Yeah, Lens. I used to read that every year until I just got very tired of it all at once.
[18:32] #knownspace> Hippy: Wait, what"
[18:32] #knownspace> Hippy: Dave Thomas did what?
[18:33] #knownspace> Dan: He passed away a few years back, I seem to recall.
[18:33] #knownspace> ronn: Died. Of heart disease.
[18:33] #knownspace> Lensman: I keep meaning to read that. I don't know if the authors were serious or had their tongues firmly in their cheeks, but either way it does seem to get talked about a lot.
[18:35] #knownspace> Lensman: Fnord.
[18:35] #knownspace> Dan: They were firmly tongue in cheek. By the middle of the third book I was always wondering it it was a face cheek they had their tongues in. Still, the series is a good one-time read.
[18:37] #knownspace> Dan: My regular yearly re-read list has shrunk as I have gotten older. LOTR, Dune, Harry Harrison, Alan Dean Foster, L. Neil Smith, and Terry Pratchet are all that survive of the olden days re-read rotation.
[18:37] #knownspace> Dan: Well, and Larry's stuff.
[18:38] #knownspace> Xenovalent: hi everyone
[18:38] #knownspace> Xenovalent: been AFK most of the day helping a friend paint
[18:38] #knownspace> Dan: Hi there, Xeno!
[18:38] #knownspace> Jim: I need to reread the Dune series.
[18:38] #knownspace> Xenovalent: have been catching up on backlog
[18:39] #knownspace> Xenovalent: Hippy: You're in Florida currently? What part? (I'm in St. Petersburg - across the bay from Tampa.)
[18:39] #knownspace> Lensman: Welcome, Xeno.
[18:39] #knownspace> Dan: I don't bother with the series, Jim, just the one original novel. Takes me about 8 hours to read nowadays.
[18:39] #knownspace> Akiraa: so: Jupiter - Jovian, Mars - ?
[18:39] #knownspace> Akiraa: it's not 'martian'
[18:39] #knownspace> Jim: Martial
[18:39] #knownspace> Lensman: I have never had any desire to re-read DUNE or read any further in the series.
[18:40] #knownspace> Dan: Sevetzian,
[18:40] #knownspace> Xenovalent: Akiraa: Heinlein used "areography" in place of "geography" in a few spots.
[18:40] #knownspace> Hippy: Xemp" Orlando, Florida
[18:40] #knownspace> Hippy: I seem to recall you're in Tampa
[18:40] #knownspace> Lensman: I think the adjective form of "Mars" comes from Ares, but I don't recall the exact word.
[18:41] #knownspace> Lensman: "Martian" will do, tho.
[18:41] #knownspace> Akiraa: Lensman: the sequels by Brian Herbers are way below the originals (both writing style and plot)
[18:41] #knownspace> Akiraa: they read like bad pulp sci-fi :)
[18:41] #knownspace> Jim: KJA and BH are masters of mining backstory.
[18:42] #knownspace> Lensman: I found DUNE to be massively over-written. I like shorter novels.
[18:42] #knownspace> Dan: DJ, I used to go to visit my 2nd wife in Occala during the time we were seperated. We always wound up in Daytona, somehow. :) Of course, she passed away just a few years after she moved back in with me here.
[18:42] #knownspace> Akiraa: dune 1-6 is nice enough and a very well made universe
[18:42] #knownspace> Jim: Akiraa, yes.
[18:43] #knownspace> Lensman: But then when I read DUNE most novels were much shorter. Perhaps it wouldn't seem so bad today, as most novesl are massively over-written and padded.
[18:43] #knownspace> Dan: Dune is my favorite short story. Only 800 pages... LOL!
[18:43] #knownspace> Akiraa: some stories still look contracted even in super long form (1500 pages)
[18:43] #knownspace> Hippy: Dam.that is the ususl fate of women who leave Daytona, I
[18:43] #knownspace> Lensman: :)
[18:43] #knownspace> Hippy: m told
[18:43] #knownspace> Akiraa: see: Song of Ice and Fire saga
[18:44] #knownspace> Jim: suppertime
[18:46] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, I've tried twice with GAME OF THRONES. It was better after seeing the HBO mini-series. Waaaaaaaay too damn many characters to keep track of, ion the book.
[18:46] #knownspace> Dan: Oh well, if things hadn't of happened as they did, I wouldn't have Lindsey now. Somehow, Lyn is... preferable to any other alternative.
[18:46] #knownspace> Akiraa: Xenovalent: so compound words relating to mars are in the form: 'areo-'?
[18:47] #knownspace> Akiraa: from Ares?
[18:47] #knownspace> Xenovalent: Akiraa: I don't think there's an actual standard form for it in English.
[18:47] #knownspace> Lensman: That's what I said: A word with "Ares" as the root.
[18:47] #knownspace> Hippy: By God yes Dan. It was only Sean that stopped me stealing her away
[18:47] #knownspace> Xenovalent: Most of the time you'll hear logic-defying combinations like "Martian geography"
[18:48] #knownspace> Dan: Arian, as opposed to Aryan.
[18:48] #knownspace> Hippy: So, do we say 'aphroditeography' via the television?
[18:49] #knownspace> Lensman: My personal opinion is that we need to get over the fact that "geo" refers specifically to Earth. Will we find it necessary to come up with a new word for "geology" or "geothermal" or whatever for every new planet we visit? That will get old pretty fast!
[18:49] #knownspace> Dan: DJ, please remember that I've been teaching the lady to shoot. LOL! There was one fellow at the con who just kept trying to seduce her, but she found him repulsive for his efforts. Wasn't you! She wanted to adopt you!
[18:49] #knownspace> Xenovalent: that's true - especially since we're already into the hundreds of exoplanets.
[18:50] #knownspace> Lensman: If it bothers you, then just call it "exogeology" and be done with it.
[18:50] #knownspace> Hippy: Certainly for planets outside our solar system
[18:50] #knownspace> SeanS: Dan what did Lyn think of me?
[18:51] #knownspace> Hippy: I
[18:51] #knownspace> Dan: Sean, Lyn does now, and always has, thought of you as a younger brother she was cheated out of growing up with.
[18:51] #knownspace> Hippy: I
[18:51] #knownspace> SeanS: I kinda feel the same.
[18:51] #knownspace> Lensman: I think there is a different term for Martian geology in RED MARS but again I can't remember the exact term.
[18:51] #knownspace> Hippy: m flattered, Dan
[18:52] #knownspace> Hippy: Barsoomology?
[18:53] #knownspace> Dan: DJ, she doesn't adopt family lightly. For her to feel that strongly about yourself and Sean just means that she's looked into your souls and seen good things.
[18:54] #knownspace> SeanS: yeah... I felt that as well.
[18:54] #knownspace> Lensman: And speaking of re-reading... I'd re-read DUNE a dozen times before I'd ever crack open RED MARS again. Wow! I can't believe that got a Hugo award or nomination. Possibly the most boring book I've ever actually managed to finish in my life. Long before the end I had quit even wishing for the author to get to the climax, and just wanted it to be OVER.
[18:54] #knownspace> SeanS: same here, Lensman
[18:54] #knownspace> Lensman: LOL! Yes, we should all start using "Barsoom" as the root word!
[18:55] #knownspace> Xenovalent: for some reason I READ "Red Mars" but my brain substituted "Rainbow Mars". Must have Niven on the brain!
[18:55] #knownspace> Dan: Don't we all?
[18:55] #knownspace> fredskuentz: Got JOHN CARTER on Blu
[18:55] #knownspace> Dan: LOL!
[18:55] #knownspace> fredskuentz: it wasn't nearly as bad at they'd have had you believe
[18:56] #knownspace> SeanS: John carter isnt bad
[18:56] #knownspace> fredskuentz: Ironic that after all the effort the advertising went through to expunge MARS, the first damn word spoken in the movie is ... "Mars!"
[18:56] #knownspace> Lensman: RAINBOW MARS was far from Larry's best, but I enjoyed the fun.
[18:57] #knownspace> fredskuentz: I don't think any of the plot deviations helped one tanj bit, but Willa was worth the price of admission
[18:57] #knownspace> Xenovalent: my wife LOVED Woola in the film
[18:57] #knownspace> Lensman: I really enjoyed JOHN CARTER, I don't care what anyone says. Sure, it wasn't exactly the world's greatest story, but then neither is Burrough's original story. It's a classic for being the first of the "planet stories' sub-genre of SF, not for being great literature.
[18:58] #knownspace> NickE: gotta bail kids, may have to read the log as was kind of distracted by...and I can't believe i
[18:58] #knownspace> fredskuentz: I want a younger hotter redder nekkider Dejah Thoris
[18:58] #knownspace> NickE: Im saying this...sport
[18:58] #knownspace> NickE: well dont we all Fred
[18:58] #knownspace> NickE: :-)
[18:59] #knownspace> Xenovalent: The rest of it was essentially a mid-grade action flick, good fun with a bucket of popcorn but not much to think about after you left the theater.
[18:59] #knownspace> Xenovalent: Also, what fredskuentz said about Dejah Thoris. :)
[18:59] #knownspace> NickE: Will wait till it's on offer as DVD
[18:59] #knownspace> NickE: Night all
[18:59] #knownspace> fredskuentz: it's been on DVD for about a month
[18:59] #knownspace> fredskuentz: :)
[18:59] #knownspace> fredskuentz: night
[18:59] #knownspace> Lensman: Woola was done perfectly IMHO. The Green Martians were mostly done perfectly (other than the cutsie infants). Other elements seemed to fall too much into the usual juvenile science fantasy movie pattern. I was disappointed at the atmosphere plants not figuring prominantly in the story, as they do in the book. But that's a minor complaint.
[19:00] #knownspace> ronn: night Nick!
[19:00] #knownspace> Lensman: But I approve of the way the changed the method Carter gets to Mars. The "wishing really really hard" thing in the book just doesn't fit with the rest of the story.
[19:00] #knownspace> fredskuentz: I was just as glad they skipped over John Carter being immortal
[19:01] #knownspace> fredskuentz: Oh, I hated hated hated hated that change
[19:01] #knownspace> Xenovalent: I can see why they left the air plant out, though - they were trying to "streamline" the plot.
[19:01] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah, well llyes will wait for the D
[19:01] #knownspace> Hippy: VD and then burn it
[19:01] #knownspace> Lensman: Fred: I would have bet money you'd hate the change. You purist, you! :)
[19:01] #knownspace> fredskuentz: I still can't believe there weren't any toys, food, nothing
[19:02] #knownspace> Hippy: By whcih I mean, melt it in twelve hndred degrees fondly fahrenheit
[19:02] #knownspace> Dan: OK guys, I'm having too much fun chatting to leave. But you know I really should be writing if it were anything other than y'all here. Thank goodness the story's plot was formulated a couple of years ago. My only task is to walk the hero through deducing that death of a friend was indeed a murder rather than the accident he thought it had to be, locating video footage of the murder happening
[19:02] #knownspace> Dan: and the murder weapon for evidence, dedusing who the assassin was, and deducing who hired the assassin. Then I'll have to walk the hero through either murdering the murderer, or letting the rich bastard get away with having his sister killed just so he could retain control of the family fortune.
[19:02] #knownspace> ronn: "VD and then burn it"
[19:02] #knownspace> ronn: Bad place to split there, Hippy . . .
[19:02] #knownspace> Lensman: Wait, wait... Fred approves of removing the "Immortal warrior" aspect of the story? Gasp! Where are my nitro pills?
[19:03] #knownspace> fredskuentz: they didn't remove it
[19:03] #knownspace> Lensman: 8-0
[19:03] #knownspace> fredskuentz: they just didn't bring it up
[19:04] #knownspace> fredskuentz: and it never made any sense or added to the plot in any way, it's just a weird thing in Carter's narrative
[19:04] #knownspace> fredskuentz: nor does he ever tell us any stories about being a roman warrior or anything
[19:05] #knownspace> fredskuentz: he could just be a normal guy suffering from a clonk on the head
[19:05] #knownspace> Lensman: It was Burroughs' first novel. Some things don't gel well. TARZAN is, in my opinion, a much better first story in a series.
[19:05] #knownspace> ronn: Well, I'm really sorry, but I'm afraid I need to go lie down. May leave this thing running so I can see what else gets written.
[19:05] #knownspace> Xenovalent: or hypoxia from the lower atmospheric pressure on Mars. :)
[19:05] #knownspace> fredskuentz: lol, xeno
[19:06] #knownspace> Dan: Bye for now, ronn!
[19:06] #knownspace> Lensman: Bye ronn! Sorry you're not feeling well.
[19:06] #knownspace> Xenovalent: I've got to leave in a bit too - but Dan's right, it's too much chatting with you all.
[19:06] #knownspace> fredskuentz: IIRC, Under the Moons of Mars was ERB's first story, but Tarzan is his first novel.
[19:07] #knownspace> fredskuentz: a small nit
[19:07] #knownspace> Lensman: Barsoom's atmosphere isn't that thin; the atmosphere plants keep it pumped up. Recall that at the end of A PRINCESS OF MARS the atmosphere plant failed, and they all started passing out...
[19:08] #knownspace> fredskuentz: must be thin air for him to jump so high :D
[19:08] #knownspace> Dan: Lower gravity.
[19:09] #knownspace> Xenovalent: Lensman: I meant it as joke. Obviously he wouldn't be suffering hypoxia when he wrote the stories - he returned to Earth with only what he had when he left Earth. And he arrived at Mars (at least in the first novel, I don't remember for the others) with nothing, not even clothes.
[19:09] #knownspace> Dan: Plus being born on Earth, his body is not only stronger on Mars, but more dense as well, so he's harder to injure.
[19:10] #knownspace> Lensman: Ack! Fred is right, TARZAN preceded A PRINCESS OF MARS. My bad!
[19:10] #knownspace> Dan: And being an astral projection of his real body, he imagines he has all sorts of super powers. LOL!
[19:10] #knownspace> fredskuentz: well
[19:10] #knownspace> fredskuentz: maybe not Lens
[19:10] #knownspace> Hippy: How do you figure that, Dan>
[19:10] #knownspace> fredskuentz: I looked it up, and found contradictory sources
[19:11] #knownspace> fredskuentz: first 'novel' may have been Tarzan, Mars, or 'outlaw of Torn' depending on who you believe :
[19:11] #knownspace> Lensman: Xeno: Yes, at least in beginning of the BARSOOM series it seems he's leaving his body on Earth and aquiring a second... "astral" ??... body on Barsoom.
[19:11] #knownspace> Dan: Comic book physics, DJ. Or in this case Pulp Magazine physics.
[19:11] #knownspace> Hippy: Gentlemen, and persons of fluctuating sex I sahll adhour until September
[19:11] #knownspace> fredskuentz: see ya hippy!
[19:12] #knownspace> Hippy: See you all at 5AM local time then!
[19:12] #knownspace> Lensman: Bye Hippy!
[19:12] #knownspace> Dan: Y'all are determined to force me to get drunk and write tonight, arent you? LOL!
[19:12] #knownspace> Dan: Bye for now, Hippy!
[19:13] #knownspace> Xenovalent: Bye Hippy!
[19:13] #knownspace> Jim: bye
[19:13] #knownspace> Xenovalent: Dan: Yes! But make sure you do your editing sober, okay?
[19:13] #knownspace> fredskuentz: I've never been clear as to if it's astral projection or not
[19:13] #knownspace> Dan: Editing I do while drinking coffee. Writing I do while drinking beer!
[19:14] #knownspace> Jim: I have heard the reverse; write sober and edit drunk.
[19:14] #knownspace> fredskuentz: if it is, you'd think critters on Earth would have pretty much nibbled him down to nothing in the 10 years of his first trip
[19:14] #knownspace> Dan: Wasn't he in a cave all that time, Fred?
[19:15] #knownspace> fredskuentz: yeah
[19:15] #knownspace> Lensman: I don't recall if Burroughs use the term "astral", but that seems to be the closest thing in other fantasy stories, and also the spiritual movement that was very much alive at the time PRINCESS was written.
[19:15] #knownspace> fredskuentz: but caves are full of critters
[19:15] #knownspace> Dan: And did a decade really pass for him on Earth whilst he was on Mars?
[19:15] #knownspace> Xenovalent: He was, but caves aren't anywhere near lifeless.
[19:15] #knownspace> fredskuentz: in the books, a decade
[19:15] #knownspace> fredskuentz: the movie, not so much
[19:15] #knownspace> Xenovalent: and is that a Martian decade or an Earth decade?
[19:16] #knownspace> fredskuentz: he marries a younger hotter redder more nekkid dejah and spends 10 years with her before the air plant goes bad
[19:16] #knownspace> Dan: Holy Rip Van Winkle, Batman! The author missed a trick!
[19:16] #knownspace> Lensman: Certainly years in the movie. When he woke up he was covered with dust, and his clothes were rotted. I was pleased with the way that was handled.
[19:18] #knownspace> Dan: Well, different writers, different styles. I would have had him wake up in the cave a few days later after having spent a decade on Mars. But it ain't *my* story now, os it?
[19:18] #knownspace> Dan: LOL!
[19:19] #knownspace> Lensman: I don't recall how much subjective time passed on Mars in either the book or the movie. I know there was an epilogue; was it set 10 years later? And did both book and movie use that "10 years later..." transition?
[19:20] #knownspace> Lensman: I think maybe they did.
[19:20] #knownspace> fredskuentz: in the movie he only spends a short time on Mars, and the rest of it is spent on Earth, trying to get back to Mars
[19:20] #knownspace> Lensman: But I could be wrong, my memory is fuzzy on the point.
[19:20] #knownspace> fredskuentz: in the book he spends 10 years on Mars, first trip
[19:21] #knownspace> fredskuentz: and the same amount of time passes on Earth
[19:22] #knownspace> Lensman: I don't personally have any problem with his body being in the cave for 10 years without being eaten by critters. Remember there was a magic spell that was causing weird effects; no doubt that gave all the animals the heebe jeebies and sent them fleeing from the spot.
[19:22] #knownspace> Lensman: We need only assume the effects of the magic lingered.
[19:23] #knownspace> fredskuentz: we're into Larry's Theory and Practice of Teleportation
[19:23] #knownspace> fredskuentz: if his astral body went to mars, shouldn't we destroy the earth body? "otherwise he hasn't actually GONE anywhere"
[19:23] #knownspace> fredskuentz: :)
[19:23] #knownspace> Lensman: How so? Does Larry cover astral projection, or something like?
[19:24] #knownspace> fredskuentz: he covers teleporting you to another planet and leaving a copy here
[19:24] #knownspace> Lensman: Oh, I see what you're saying.
[19:24] #knownspace> fredskuentz: but I don't believe that the disposition of his body on earth is ever addressed anyway
[19:24] #knownspace> fredskuentz: how could it be? There wasn't anybody else in the cave
[19:24] #knownspace> fredskuentz: it's all Carter's POV
[19:25] #knownspace> Lensman: Not really the same. In ERB's story, the soul-- the spirit-- traveled. In Larry's article, it's a case of physically duplicating the body. No problem with just one soul for two bodies.
[19:25] #knownspace> Lensman: There was too someone else in the cave! The witch.
[19:26] #knownspace> Dan: Astral is mental projection, not physical transport.
[19:26] #knownspace> Jim: The witch sexually used the body while Carter was occupied on Mars?
[19:26] #knownspace> Lensman: Dan: Yes, but Carter seemed to have a very solid body on Mars.
[19:27] #knownspace> Lensman: Jim: No, that would be JOHN HOLMES OF MARS. :)
[19:27] #knownspace> Dan: Well, that is how it was written.
[19:28] #knownspace> Lensman: Okay, so call it "psychic apportation" instead of "astral projection". Doesn't matter what the label is; the problem is that Burroughs doesn't explain how Carter's body can remain on Earth yet he has what appears to be a normal body when he's on Barsoom.
[19:31] #knownspace> Hippy: Ee, it were all a dream
[19:33] #knownspace> fredskuentz: tough to be a dream when 10 years passees :)
[19:37] #knownspace> Hippy: Well,,yes, but yet I'm still on ths chat
[19:39] #knownspace> Jim: I suppose ERB needed to have spent more time on world building.
[19:40] #knownspace> Hippy: It was but an art back then
[19:40] #knownspace> Jim: I would have had the witch open up a portal that Carter could walk through to Mars.
[19:41] #knownspace> Dan: Fantasy is a tough genre to write within. That is why I try to stick to writing SF. The rules are simpler.
[19:41] #knownspace> Jim: Dan, I agree.
[19:42] #knownspace> fredskuentz: isn't the fantasy readership way less demanding though?
[19:43] #knownspace> Dan: No, not at all. Fantasy fen are usually more demanding.
[19:43] #knownspace> Hippy: Stephanie Meyer says 'yes'
[19:43] #knownspace> Jim: Jerry said that with Fantasy, you can write anything you want to.
[19:44] #knownspace> Hippy: Niven SAYS you
[19:44] #knownspace> Lensman: Remember, this was the first "planet adventure" science fantasy. I'm sure that if it had been written after other authors had written similar tales, ERB would have come up with a method of transport that is more consistant. Yes, opening a portal would have been a better story, but then how do you pull off the "You wake up and find yourself back where you started" bit? Yeah, it's almost like the whole thing was a dream.
[19:44] #knownspace> Hippy: are more obligated with fantasy
[19:45] #knownspace> Jim: Hippy, please explain.
[19:48] #knownspace> Jim: Lensman, "Edison's Conquest of Mars" predates "John Carter of Mars".
[19:48] #knownspace> Lensman: Arguing over whether fantasy or hard-SF is harder to write merely points up how diverse our genre is. For those who try to write fantasy using a lot of historical research and detailed world-building-- like A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE-- I'm sure it's a lot harder than writing a lot of what gets publishe as SF. For those who try very hard to keep the science in their SF rigorous, but take a much more light-hearted approach to fantasy-- like L
[19:50] #knownspace> Jim: ECM: 1898
[19:51] #knownspace> Jim: JCM: 1912
[19:52] #knownspace> Lensman: EDISON'S CONQUEST OF MARS is one of the worst pieces of so-called SF ever written, and certainly didn't inspire any imitators! It most definitely was not the story that kicked off a sub-genre.
[19:52] #knownspace> fredskuentz: THE edison?
[19:52] #knownspace> Lensman: Fred: Yes.
[19:52] #knownspace> fredskuentz: huh
[19:53] #knownspace> Jim: Wikipedia: "The book contains some notable "firsts" in science fiction: alien abductions, spacesuits (called "air-tight suits": see Spacesuits in fiction), aliens building the Pyramids, space battles, oxygen pills, asteroid mining and disintegrator rays."
[19:53] #knownspace> Dan: I read that article. I hated it.
[19:53] #knownspace> Lensman: I dunno if they had his permission to use his name or not. Perhaps it wasn't needed back then.
[19:54] #knownspace> Jim: ECM had plenty of real life famous people in the novel.
[19:56] #knownspace> Lensman: EDISON'S CONQUEST was published as a quick-and-dirty sequel-- an unauthorized sequel-- to THE WAR OF THE WORLDS. It started out as an unrelated story, but was partially re-written to make it appear at least superficially to be related to Wells' story. I cannot describe the awfulness of its writing; it can only be experienced. You can find it online if you wish; I only read a few paragraphs, and that was enough.
[19:58] #knownspace> Lensman: WOTW was serialized in two magazines simultaneously; one in Great Britain and one in the USA. It was natural that after the success of that popular serial, someone would want to cash in on its popularity by quickly following up on it with a sequel. I dunno if it was the same American magazine which published EDISON'S CONQUEST.
[19:58] #knownspace> Jim: I think someone should do a steampunk movie version of ECM.
[19:59] #knownspace> Hippy: ECM>
[20:00] #knownspace> Jim: ECM == Edison's Conquest of Mars
[20:00] #knownspace> Jim: 1898
[20:00] #knownspace> Lensman: There is a wonderful steampunk game called SPACE: 1889 in which Edison invents an "ether propellor" which allows Earthmen to build steam-powered spaceships and travel to Mars, Venus, and Luna. It's a terrific setting, and I'd love to see some stories written using that background.
[20:01] #knownspace> Hippy: I love that game
[20:02] #knownspace> Dan: Well, you've got to remember that to steampunks, Edison is a villain and Tesla is a hero.
[20:02] #knownspace> Hippy: Okay, this is mer seriusly afjourning.
[20:02] #knownspace> Lensman: Very much in the tradition of ERB's Barsoom and Venus stories. It's not exactly Barsoom and not exactly ERB's Venus, but it's not that far off. It even has "liftwood", a Martian plant with anti-gravity properties, so you can have Martian airboats similar to what ERB describes... altho with a different method of achieving antigravity.
[20:02] #knownspace> Hippy: see you all in
[20:03] #knownspace> Lensman: Bye Hippy!
[20:03] #knownspace> Jim: bye
[20:03] #knownspace> Hippy: september and wher is the shift key>>>>
[20:04] #knownspace> Lensman: Edison is a villain? Who started that tradition in steampunk?
[20:04] #knownspace> Jim: Tesla
[20:04] #knownspace> Lensman: LOL!
[20:06] #knownspace> Lensman: It's said that Tesla inspired the stereotypical mad scientist in pulp literature. Certainly Tesla and Edison were rivals. I think Tesla was the greatest electrical genius in history, but he is also the greatest example of how there is a fine line between genius and insanity. And as he got older, Tesla stepped farther and farther over that line!
[20:06] #knownspace> Dan: Due to Edison's dastardly treatment of Tesla in the real world, steampunks ahve adopted Tesla as a Saint and Edison as "the bastard we want to shoot more than we want to shoot Hitler."
[20:07] #knownspace> Jim: Edison said his mistreatment of Tesla was his greatest regret.
[20:08] #knownspace> Dan: In the real world, yes. Jim. Steampunk is just a few steps to one side of the real world, however.
[20:08] #knownspace> Lensman: Dan: LOL! Okay, so someone who can get authorization to use the SPACE: 1889 background might want to throw in that Tesla actually invented the aether propellor, but that Edison stole the design from him and patented it.
[20:09] #knownspace> Dan: Lens, that would be really a good plot point to use if you want to sell books to steampunks. And that is *not* a small market these days.
[20:10] #knownspace> Lensman: I'm totally serious: Someone should start writing SPACE: 1889 fiction. The background is very detailed and the settings for adventure and there is an incredible potential there for many different stories in many different settings, on multiple planets.
[20:11] #knownspace> Lensman: (There is a gramattically correct sentence in the above, struggling to escape!)
[20:11] #knownspace> Dan: If I were writing it, I would state that the Aether Propellor was a refinement of Tesla's bladeless turbine and then right after that say that Edison, the unprincipaled bastard that he is in the steampunk mindset, stole the idea and managed to patent it ahead of Tesla even thinking that a patent was needed.
[20:12] #knownspace> Dan: The rules for writing steampunk are even more complicated than those for writing Fantasy.
[20:13] #knownspace> Lensman: In real life, Edison was much better at improving than he was at making an original invention. If you wanted to inject a note of semi-realism, have Edison improve on Tesla's design and then patent that. Which is pretty much what you said, I think.
[20:14] #knownspace> Dan: I'm *fairly* good at writing steampunk, but I am by no means great at it. I am far better at writing SF with elements of humor generously blended in.
[20:17] #knownspace> Dan: *I* write steampunk on a Jules Verne level, not on an HG Wells level. The machinery quite often is the star, the charactors are important but sometimes play second fiddle to the machines. Wells wrote about charactors in strange situations, and the charactors were more important...
[20:18] #knownspace> Lensman: The commercial rivalry between Westinghouse (using Tesla's patents) and Edison in the "war of currents" was certainly epic. I dunno how much personal rivalry there was between Edison and Tesla. Tesla was much more of a showman and a dreamer; Edison was much better at business-- making money-- and promoting himself.
[20:18] #knownspace> Lensman: Tesla died a pauper. He really needed a business manager.
[20:21] #knownspace> Dan: Lens, from what I've read, which includes Tesla's short autobiography, Tesla believed he was above Edison's tactics of self-promotion and that his inventions would sell themselves. Edison realized that promotion was damn near more important than inventing if one wanted to get paid for one's work.
[20:22] #knownspace> Lensman: Edison was certainly a much more practical man. I admire both. I personally think Tesla was the greater inventor; Edison gets more credit, I think, because he was better at promoting himself.
[20:22] #knownspace> Jim: In the past, I have known people who tried to make Tesla's wireless tasers work.
[20:23] #knownspace> Dan: I think they were both wrong, but in different directions. Tesla needed to promote his work more, Edison needed to invent more himself rather than adapt & patent the work of others.
[20:23] #knownspace> Jim: I agree with Lensman.
[20:23] #knownspace> Lensman: Hmmm, that's the second time in a week or two I've seen Tesla's autobiography mentioned. I'll have to see if that's online, I'd like to read it.
[20:24] #knownspace> Dan: It's really short, and relativly inexpensive for a tiny hardback book.
[20:25] #knownspace> Dan: Tesla only wrote about things he was excited about inventing. He didn't add in a lot of details that most biographers would consider necessary.
[20:26] #knownspace> Lensman: LOL! Tesla's more fanciful notions have had great influence on the fringe science community! It rather bemuses me to read fringe science websites which mix Tesla's real science & tech indistingushibly from his wildest over-reaches... such as his claim he could split the Earth by setting up a resonance of "transverse waves", and his claim for an "electric shield" dome over a city to protect it from aerial bombardment.
[20:27] #knownspace> Dan: Both inventions were real, but Tesla never built the full-powered versions that would have made his claims fact.
[20:28] #knownspace> Lensman: But as a background for science fantasy, even the wildest claims of fringe science regarding Tesla's inventions are fertile territory for... well I think it's out of the steampunk era, but "diesel punk" stories.
[20:29] #knownspace> Jim: Lately, I have been interested in that genre of sexually explicit literature that uses the names of real world politicians and celebrities for characters.
[20:29] #knownspace> Lensman: "Transverse waves" are pseudo-science. Not real.
[20:29] #knownspace> Jim: light is a transverse wave
[20:29] #knownspace> Dan: Westinghouse wouldn't front the cash to make the city-shield real, and Tesla himself destroyed the pilot-model resonance engine after it nearly desrtoyed the builting his lab was in.
[20:29] #knownspace> Jim: S-waves are transverse waves
[20:32] #knownspace> Lensman: Okay... obviously I just demonstrated my ignorance on the subject. Thank you, guys, I learned something today!
[20:33] #knownspace> Lensman: Still don't believe in either of Tesla's claims, tho.
[20:33] #knownspace> Dan: Tesla's real work versus his claims of what the final versions of his works could do is part of what made him the prototypical Mad Scientist.
[20:33] #knownspace> Lensman: Might be theoretically possible to split the Earth, but certainly not by using the power source Tesla claimed he could use to do it.
[20:34] #knownspace> Lensman: As far as the electric shield... I
[20:36] #knownspace> Dan: Resonance is one of those things that exponentially increases the parent machine's power source. It's a lot like magic in that respect. A relativly tiny effort cause great huge changes.
[20:36] #knownspace> Lensman: I'm not sure that Tesla ever gave enough details to really analyze its practicality. If he was proposing a method of detonating bombs before they reached the ground, then perhaps that would be possible, altho again I doubt he could have come up with the power to actually shield a sizable city. But if he was claiming he could actually physically stop the bombs from falling, or disintegrate them... then no, that's pure fantasy.
[20:36] #knownspace> Dan: causes
[20:36] #knownspace> Jim: Tesla suffered from mental illness; today, we would call him bipolar.
[20:37] #knownspace> Dan: Well, OCD certainly. Bi-polar is a totally different thing.
[20:37] #knownspace> Jim: Tesla's method for stopping airplanes would work only with gasoline (spark ignition) engines.
[20:38] #knownspace> Dan: As I recall, he was claiming that he could cause the bombs to detonate before they could actually get close enough to a city to do damage. But I'm working from memory here so I could easily be wrong.
[20:39] #knownspace> Jim: Do jet engines use a spark plug?
[20:39] #knownspace> Lensman: Now, I really like the idea some fringe science websites have proposed, that Tesla invented a particle beam weapon! I imagined a scenario for a Doc Savage-type role-playing game, in which the characters were flying towards the mad scientist's castle, and a particle beam starts slicing their aircraft in half...
[20:40] #knownspace> Dan: Tesla's particle beam weapon would act pretty much like an aimed bolt of lightning, as I recall.
[20:41] #knownspace> Lensman: Dan: You could easily be right about detonating the bombs. I just never could find any details about it, but I never looked further than the fringe science websites.
[20:41] #knownspace> Dan: Nothing more than a rope of electrons directed from a projector.
[20:42] #knownspace> Lensman: I thought the particle beam was supposed to throw out actual tiny particles of metal at extremely high velocity. "Lightning bolt' would imply just electrical energy.
[20:42] #knownspace> Dan: Well, I do have that advantage of reading the autobiography as well as the other decent boigraphies written in more modern times.
[20:42] #knownspace> Jim: Someone should write a story about the Iranians perfecting Tesla's technology to use against US and Israeli aerial attacks.
[20:45] #knownspace> Lensman: Dan: Well, let's just say you've read rather different things about what some claim was Tesla's particle beam device. I'm sure I read a claim that it was designed to throw out actual tiny particles. But then, it *was* a fringe science website, and hence certainly not reliable info.
[20:45] #knownspace> Dan: Nah, Wardencliff was supposed to broadcast electrical energy and narrowcast electron particle beams, as I understand the principals involved. I have to stress that I am *not* a scientist by any stretch of the imagination.
[20:46] #knownspace> Lensman: No, not talking about the Wardencliff tower. This was something different. As I recall, it had a belt that rubbed against something at high speed to create friction.
[20:51] #knownspace> Dan: Haven't the foggiest what that would be then, Lens.
[20:53] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, even that website admitted Tesla's description was vague and they were just making some guesses based on one of Tesla's drawings.
[20:53] #knownspace> Lensman: As I said, I found it more interesting from the standpoint of ideas for a science fantasy plotline, rather than actual science.
[20:54] #knownspace> Dan: All right Gentlemen, my wife has just gently reminded me that I haven't written a bloody word on the murder mystery story that has to be ready for publication by Thanksgiving, and one of my favorite Brticoms is coming on PBS in less than 10 minutes...
[20:54] #knownspace> Dan: I managed to duck when she swung the frying an at me...
[20:54] #knownspace> Lensman: G'nite Dan! It's rather past the time I normally sign off from this chat room, too. But the conversation has been great; thanks!
[20:54] #knownspace> Dan: pan
[20:55] #knownspace> Lensman: I'll have to check out what's playing on PBS.
[20:55] #knownspace> Dan: Lens, any conversation which allows me to think rather than just grunt platitudes is a good conversation, LOL!
[20:55] #knownspace> Lensman: Oh, the one with Judi Dench?
[20:56] #knownspace> Dan: Exactly the one!
[20:56] #knownspace> Dan: Goodnight, dearest friends. Hopefilly I will have next month's chat day off from work.
[20:57] #knownspace> Lensman: I find the previous show, "Lark Rise to Candleford", more to my taste. I think I've seen most of the episodes my now, tho. We ordered some thru NetFlix.
[20:57] #knownspace> fredskuentz: I watch a lot of Australian TV
[20:58] #knownspace> fredskuentz: Right now I'm watching CONTINUUM which is Canadian scifi
[20:59] #knownspace> fredskuentz: and SINBAD
[21:00] #knownspace> fredskuentz: on the brit front I quite enjoyed DEATH IN PARADISE
[21:01] #knownspace> fredskuentz: later this month I'll try COPPER
[21:01] #knownspace> fredskuentz: and from down under there's MISS FISHER'S MURDER MYSTERIES and of course ALIEN SURF GIRLS :)
[21:19] #knownspace> Jim: bye