Saturday, 7 January, 2012 - 12:00am
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[12:45] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: well, the irc server seems to be working
[12:45] #knownspace> sean: that is the eris client?
[12:45] #knownspace> sean: tis only about 20 percent loaded here
[12:46] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: haven't tried it yet. i tested it the other day and it wokred
[12:46] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: worked
[12:46] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: i just got done brining all the servers back up at work. power failure... again
[12:46] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: this place needs a backup generator
[12:46] #knownspace> sean: the screen shot he showed was the eris client and it had not opened the channel window
[12:46] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: in trying to reach the ups, i fell over a desk and landed on my head
[12:47] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: it was funny
[12:47] #knownspace> sean: i bet
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[12:48] #knownspace> test2: here i am from the eris client
[12:48] #knownspace> sean: okay
[12:48] #knownspace> test2: not using a mac though...
[12:48] #knownspace> sean: its flash... should be platform independent
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[12:51] #knownspace> Sean1783: fred is using the web interface to your bbs
[12:54] #knownspace> sean: it says he is in irc chat but i dont see him
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[13:33] #knownspace> sean: successs
[13:34] #knownspace> fredskuentz: okay, is this the main chat?
[13:34] #knownspace> fredskuentz: yes!
[13:34] #knownspace> sean: yepper
[13:34] #knownspace> fredskuentz: I have user list
[13:34] #knownspace> fredskuentz: yay!
[13:34] #knownspace> fredskuentz: sorry about all that
[13:34] #knownspace> sean: no worries
[13:34] #knownspace> sean: happy to help
[13:34] #knownspace> fredskuentz: :)
[13:35] #knownspace> sean: you can do a /nick Fred if you wish
[13:36] #knownspace> sean: illegal channel name.... hmmm... what did you finally type to get in here?
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[13:54] #knownspace> sean: hey nick
[13:55] #knownspace> sean: bye nick
[13:58] NickE has joined #knownspace
[14:08] #knownspace> NickE: evenin'
[14:09] #knownspace> sean: for you... ;)
[14:10] #knownspace> Fred: I have no idea what finally worked sean
[14:11] #knownspace> sean: just wondering
[14:12] #knownspace> Fred: me too :)
[14:12] #knownspace> sean: heh
[14:13] #knownspace> Fred: I didn't even know it worked until you said success
[14:15] #knownspace> sean: gotcha
[14:16] #knownspace> sean: i actually have a mac but it is old and i dont use it. powermac 7200/90
[14:20] #knownspace> NickE: ah. Hi Sean, Hi Fred
[14:20] #knownspace> NickE: (was checking email)
[14:20] #knownspace> Fred: hey nick
[14:22] #knownspace> NickE: I *finally* managed to get a copy of MKW IV
[14:22] #knownspace> sean: I have V and VIII on the shelf
[14:23] #knownspace> NickE: only taken what 10 years
[14:23] #knownspace> sean: there is a copy of II in the bathroom
[14:23] #knownspace> NickE: had all the others, but fir some reason 4 never came out for any length of time in the UK, even though I had no problem with the others
[14:25] #knownspace> NickE: finally gave up on *finding* it in 2nd hand shops (half the fun is the chase) and got it from Texas (97p and £2.80 postage)
[14:28] #knownspace> sean: no second hand shops in frankfort any more.
[14:28] #knownspace> sean: so it is at least a half hour on the interstate to a big town to get to one
[14:29] #knownspace> NickE: well, I have teh advantage of working in Oxford - lotsa bookshops (though fewer these days)
[14:33] #knownspace> sean: i cant remember the last time i was in a 2nd hand book shop
[14:34] #knownspace> sean: i remember the store but not when. it has to be 8 years ago. nice shop up in Louisville
[14:41] #knownspace> Fred: Our second hand shops kind of dried up and blew away
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[14:42] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: fred you got in!
[14:42] #knownspace> Fred: yeah
[14:42] #knownspace> Fred: we don't know how though
[14:43] #knownspace> Fred: I just kept clicking and pasting various permutations until I noticed Sean say 'success'
[14:43] Lensman has joined #knownspace
[14:43] #knownspace> Fred: Lensman
[14:43] #knownspace> NickE: Hi Mark, Hi Lens
[14:43] #knownspace> Lensman: Hi fen!
[14:44] #knownspace> Fred: So it turns out there are at least a dozen genre conventions in Phoenix this year
[14:44] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: hey nick, lenser
[14:44] #knownspace> Fred: including two this weekend
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[14:44] #knownspace> Fred: If I decide to start leaving the house again I could be quite busy
[14:44] #knownspace> NickE: hi Hippy
[14:44] #knownspace> Hippy: Hi, Nick
[14:44] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: a dozen?
[14:45] #knownspace> Hippy: Hi everyone. How's 2012 treating you so far?
[14:46] #knownspace> NickE: meh
[14:47] #knownspace> NickE: not bad but have root canal to look fwd to soon :-(
[14:47] #knownspace> Fred: better than 2011 did, but then it would almost have to
[14:47] #knownspace> Hippy: Yes, so far it's living up to its promises, isn't it?
[14:47] #knownspace> Hippy: Ywah, Fred. How's your mum?
[14:51] #knownspace> Hippy: Er. . .I"m sorry if that was not a nice question. Moving on. . .
[14:54] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: i just got back from earby
[14:54] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: where the power company is retarded
[14:55] #knownspace> Hippy: That's a universal truth
[14:56] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: I've worked there a year. five power outages
[14:57] #knownspace> Hippy: Jesus, that's worse than here
[14:57] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: this one was long enough to down all the esx servers. they don't like that
[14:58] #knownspace> Hippy: That raises a question - who here doesn't work in IT? Me, but who else?
[14:58] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: nick doesn't
[14:58] #knownspace> NickE: noe
[14:59] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: I *KNOW* Lensman doesn't...
[14:59] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: because there is some IT, someplace that still works.
[14:59] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: :-)
[14:59] #knownspace> Hippy: LOL!
[14:59] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: i'm not sure where he actually does work though
[15:00] #knownspace> Hippy: If he told us, he'd have to kill us
[15:01] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: i've been playing with orbiter again. i keep toying with an idea... maybe Fred could help.
[15:02] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: I'd like to have a flash intro to larryniven.net with the ship from neutron star (who's name escapes me) flying around bvs-1 and then going to a logo.
[15:02] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: this is all way beyond my ability.
[15:03] #knownspace> Hippy: I don't think the ship had a name
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[15:03] #knownspace> Hippy: Still, that would look pretty snazzy
[15:03] #knownspace> sean: skydiver
[15:03] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: i can't remember
[15:03] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: hello larry!
[15:03] #knownspace> Hippy: Hi, Larry
[15:03] #knownspace> sean: Hi Larry
[15:04] #knownspace> Larry: Hello all
[15:04] #knownspace> Hippy: Skydiver, really? My memory. . .it's too early on a Sunday :)
[15:04] #knownspace> sean: Skydiver is the name of the ship in the short story Neutron Star
[15:04] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: that sounds right.
[15:04] #knownspace> sean: I just reread it
[15:05] #knownspace> Larry: How does it hold up?
[15:05] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: Isaac asimov is still annoyed, I bet
[15:05] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: from the grave.
[15:05] #knownspace> Larry: I didn't need the hyperdrive. Young and foolish.
[15:05] #knownspace> Hippy: I still like 'a contract is as binding as the tape it's recorded on'
[15:06] #knownspace> sean: pretty well, Larry, but you said yourself that the ship would leave the neutron star spinning which would kill Schaefer.
[15:06] #knownspace> Larry: Yeah. Suddenly verbal contracts wre legit.
[15:06] #knownspace> Lensman: I think other than the anacronistic reference to "tape", "Neutron Star" holds up perfectly.
[15:06] #knownspace> NickE: Hi LArry
[15:07] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: i like anacronistic references
[15:07] #knownspace> Larry: Hi NickE
[15:07] #knownspace> Lensman: Of course, we can't be sure that "tape" means a magnetic recording, any more than "dial" a phone means there is a physical dial.
[15:07] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: my wife keeps telling me not to swear, i think that's fucking annoying
[15:07] #knownspace> Hippy: In any case, 'tape' is just an expresssin. LIke I 'tape' a TV program even though there's no tape in the recording now
[15:08] #knownspace> Hippy: 'Fucking' is no longer a swear word here. There's even a court case to back that up
[15:08] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: hippy -> really, where is there?
[15:08] #knownspace> Lensman: Re spinning: Nah, Bey just didn't bother to mention that the automatic pilot used the gyros to counter the spinning.
[15:09] #knownspace> Larry: Never was. It's a technical term. "Damn" is both.
[15:09] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, Queendland. But other States would be affected by that precedent
[15:09] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, exactly Hippy. And on one forum I belong to, people keep referring to a digital recording as a "tape".
[15:09] #knownspace> Larry: The spin got into "Crashlander", the Beowulf Shaeffer novel.
[15:10] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: larry -> I have a question RE: larryniven.net: what can I call it? The offical site? The unoffical-official site? The sanctioned by Larry Niven but unoffical site? I'm having problems keeping links to it on wikipedia because it isn't the "official" site.
[15:10] #knownspace> Lensman: And the spin is mentioned in JUGGLER OF WORLDS.
[15:10] #knownspace> Lensman: I think...
[15:11] #knownspace> NickE: brb
[15:11] #knownspace> Larry: Okay, it's an official site. It's been running long enough that I trust you guys.
[15:11] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: larry -> why, thank you!
[15:11] #knownspace> Lensman: Thinking about what, JMJ?
[15:11] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: lensman -> You said, "I think..."
[15:12] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: and then nothing else
[15:12] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: and you haven't told us where you work that isn't IT.
[15:12] #knownspace> Lensman: I think the spin is mentioned in JUGGLER OF WORLDS.
[15:12] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: ah.
[15:12] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: I wish we could get R3 in here for a Saturday chat
[15:13] #knownspace> Lensman: I've worked in printing, in shipping, in customer service for several companies, including the Post Awful and an insurance servicing agency. No, I've never worked in IT. Now I'm retired.
[15:13] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: Larry, any updates on what you are working on at the moment?
[15:13] #knownspace> Lensman: I've certainly invited R3.
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[15:14] #knownspace> Hippy: Hello, Julie
[15:14] #knownspace> sean: my gf Julie wanted to ask a question
[15:14] #knownspace> Julie: Larry I have a question for you
[15:14] #knownspace> NickE: Hi Julie!
[15:14] #knownspace> Larry: I'm working on Book 2 of the Bowl of Heaven set, currently called Shipstar.
[15:14] #knownspace> Lensman: Did anyone ask Larry about "Nightmare: The Genetics Game" ?
[15:14] #knownspace> NickE: Oh cool
[15:15] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: hi julie
[15:15] #knownspace> NickE: Didn't realise it was going to be a set
[15:15] #knownspace> Julie: My son had to work on learning sentence diagraming the other nigh
[15:15] #knownspace> Larry: Also working with Jerry Pournelle on "Lucifer's Anvil" or maybe "Samael's Forge".
[15:15] #knownspace> Julie: is that still relevant to know with computers and all
[15:15] #knownspace> NickE: How is Bowl doing then?
[15:15] #knownspace> NickE: Double cool :-)
[15:15] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: larry -> cool. I haven't read the first one yet! I'll have to get on that. Are there any plans to release more of your stuff for the Kindle? You see, I got one for Christmas... and...
[15:16] #knownspace> Lensman: Oooh a sequel to /Lucifer's Hammer/ ??
[15:16] #knownspace> Lensman: One of my favorite books!
[15:16] #knownspace> NickE: shit, is Bowl *out*?!
[15:16] #knownspace> Larry: We have a working Outline and I've started writing text.
[15:17] #knownspace> Larry: Not a sequel to Lucifer's Hammer. Starting from present time, different assumptions.
[15:17] #knownspace> Hippy: That's a good question, Julie
[15:17] #knownspace> Larry: Am I confusing anyone? Greg and I have some text. So do Jerry and I.
[15:17] #knownspace> Lensman: "Bowl" doesn't seem to be out yet.
[15:17] #knownspace> NickE: hm, many restarants named Bowl of Heaven! And an astrology book
[15:18] #knownspace> Lensman: :(
[15:18] #knownspace> Julie: thanks Hippy....I just wanted a writer
[15:18] #knownspace> Lensman: And the other day when I looked, I didn't see THE FATE OF WORLDS either.
[15:18] #knownspace> Larry: Bowl won't be out till later this year.
[15:18] #knownspace> NickE: @Julie, not even sure what sentense diagramming is
[15:18] #knownspace> Julie: oops perspective so that is why I asked
[15:18] #knownspace> Larry: Fate of Worlds is due soon if it isn't out now. Not sure.
[15:18] #knownspace> Hippy: Parsing, I would imagine
[15:18] #knownspace> Lensman: Which surprised me because all the other OF WORLDS books came out in the 4th quarter of a year.
[15:19] #knownspace> NickE: Ah, I'll keep and eye out for it
[15:19] #knownspace> NickE: Ah parsing, yeah, that makes sense
[15:20] #knownspace> Larry: FYI the Fate of Worlds is the last and fifth.
[15:20] #knownspace> Hippy: For what it's worth, Julie, I would say that it is worth learning, because computers aren't very good at it
[15:20] #knownspace> NickE: Shipstar sounds like a good title
[15:20] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: nicke -> you draw diagrams of sentenaces to show you the parts of speech
[15:20] #knownspace> Hippy: Further, what grammar checkers there are force you to sound like an American :)
[15:20] #knownspace> NickE: oh right, *grammar*
[15:20] #knownspace> NickE: :-)
[15:20] #knownspace> Julie: gotcha
[15:20] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry, you provided a short article called "Nightmare: The Genetics Game" to the LarryNiven.net website. We were wondering what its previous publication history was. We can't find any reference for prior publication. Carol said you provided us with one item which hadn't been previously published anywhere. Is that the one?
[15:21] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: hippy -> my wife is doing another BA, and has me proof read her stuff. I always make it too american
[15:21] #knownspace> Hippy: But in order to write well, as Larry does, its important to know what the rules are before you break them
[15:21] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: these english types write in a passive voice
[15:21] #knownspace> Julie: I just had to reach way back in my memory to help him and it was very hard...LOL
[15:22] #knownspace> Hippy: Passive voice rules (sentence fragment)
[15:22] #knownspace> NickE: look, I was a science teacher once - the amount of dubious English that I had to decipher made me kind of relaxed about sentence structure (which is odd as I can be really picky about grammar in other circumstances)
[15:22] #knownspace> Larry: I have no memory of "Nightmare: the Genetics Game". This may be a ringer. Send me a copy, please.
[15:22] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: "For hygenic reasions, we respectfully request that you refrain from alighting onto areas that contain grass."
[15:23] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: as opposed to "Keep off the grass."
[15:23] #knownspace> Hippy: On the other hand, I hate insurance policies that start out 'Hi, Darren! Just thoght we'd let you know that. . .'
[15:24] #knownspace> Lensman: "Nightmare: The Genetics Game" can be found online here: http://www.larryniven.net/stories/nightmare.shtml
[15:24] #knownspace> NickE: indeed
[15:24] #knownspace> Lensman: What does "ringer" mean?
[15:24] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: nicke -> I escaped the fate of everyone elese in my family (becoming a teacher) by getting thrown out of ASU, repeatedly.
[15:24] #knownspace> Hippy: Somethingt masquerading as the real thing
[15:24] #knownspace> NickE: in what context?
[15:24] #knownspace> NickE: heh
[15:24] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry said "This may be a ringer."
[15:24] #knownspace> NickE: ah
[15:25] #knownspace> NickE: what Hipy said then
[15:26] #knownspace> Lensman: Perhaps I should clarify: This is something which the LarryNiven.net-- the now "Official" Larry Niven fan site-- has published, along with various other mostly obscure short articles and stories written by Larry.
[15:26] #knownspace> Lensman: "Ringer" suggests it's not authorized, or not written by Larry?
[15:26] #knownspace> Hippy: Correct, Lens
[15:27] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: i'm not sure where that one came from... i think it predates my time doing the site
[15:28] #knownspace> Larry: Carol did ask for something, but that wasn't it.
[15:28] #knownspace> Lensman: Do you want me to e-mail you a copy, Larry?
[15:28] #knownspace> sean: I just sent it
[15:28] #knownspace> Larry: Yes, Lensman.
[15:28] #knownspace> Lensman: Okay, thanks Sean.
[15:29] #knownspace> Larry: OK, sean sent it.
[15:29] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: the bibliography says it was published in December 2008 but not where
[15:29] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: it says it was written for larryniven.net
[15:29] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: http://news.larryniven.net/biblio/display.asp?key=396&search=Title%20LIKE
[15:30] #knownspace> Lensman: Hmmm that's odd. Dave, the guy who maintains the Bibliography, said he didn't know what the origin was. I guess I need to e-mail him, it sounds like he got some info since he posted that on the discussion list for the website editors.
[15:32] #knownspace> Larry: I've been designing a near-future airplane/airline extraoikatung current security practices. Passengers fly naked. It's all First Class. Haven't got a story yet.
[15:32] #knownspace> sean: heh
[15:32] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: certianly with no shoes
[15:32] #knownspace> Hippy: UNderpants-free, as well
[15:33] #knownspace> Hippy: An ideal opportunity to meet people. You have to keep your up and have some kind of conversation
[15:33] #knownspace> Lensman: I've been wondering if people will actually submit to a body cavity search before boarding. It seems there are no limits to what the average person will allow him/herself to be subjected to in order to board a passenger plane.
[15:34] #knownspace> Hippy: Pretty true, Lens
[15:34] #knownspace> Lensman: There were a few protests about "Don't touch my junk", but only a very small percentage of passengers actually objected. I find it depressing that people allow their privacy and their rights to be so casually violated.
[15:34] #knownspace> Larry: Yes, Lansman. Security for flights to Israel is extreme, and no complaints to be heard.
[15:35] #knownspace> Hippy: Yet I can kill just as many people carrying C4 on to a morning train
[15:35] #knownspace> Lensman: El Al-- the Israeli airline-- has the best security, and they don't do pat-downs of most passengers. But they *do* do "racial profiling". Horrors!
[15:35] #knownspace> Hippy: And no checks at all
[15:35] #knownspace> Hippy: The real worry now is not so much an explosion as in someone taking over the plane and parking it in a skyscraper somewhere
[15:36] #knownspace> Lensman: But their security people are highly trained in observing human behavior. Can't use minimum-wage security guards for that!
[15:36] #knownspace> Hippy: So, a naked passenger with Steven Barnes-like martial arts experience takes over the plane anyway
[15:36] #knownspace> sean: The last time I flew was about a year after 9/11. a friend and I flew one way from Louisville to West Palm Beach to pick up a car he had bought online and drive it back. Amazingly, we were both 'randomly' selected for additional screening.
[15:37] #knownspace> sean: from what i read in the news, i doubt the additional screening then is even close to the level of normal screening now
[15:37] #knownspace> Hippy: I've been tapped like that here, too. Of course, when my flight is cancelled I DO want to blow something up
[15:37] #knownspace> Larry: Hippy: shhh
[15:38] #knownspace> NickE: heh
[15:38] #knownspace> Hippy: Mum's the word, Larry
[15:38] #knownspace> Lensman: Uh oh, "Big Ear" is now listening to our chat! ;-)
[15:38] #knownspace> sean: I doubt the NSA has added a hidden module to Outsider but you never know
[15:39] #knownspace> Hippy: Let's hope their long arm doens'[ cross the equator
[15:39] #knownspace> Hippy: I"ll be nabbed at LAX, though
[15:39] #knownspace> Lensman: "arm" or "ARM" ?
[15:40] #knownspace> Larry: What used to drive the American Communists crazy was, nobody was listening to them.
[15:40] #knownspace> sean: Those are some stories I have not read in a long time... The long ARM of Gil Hamilton.
[15:40] #knownspace> Lensman: The first three Gil stories are among my favorites.
[15:40] #knownspace> Hippy: 'Flatlander' is the one to read now
[15:41] #knownspace> Hippy: Speaking of American politics, go Ron Paul!
[15:42] #knownspace> Larry: I want John Stossel, but he won't run. I'd have accepted Cain. I'll vote for Ron Paul.
[15:43] #knownspace> Hippy: Let's hope you have the option, Larry
[15:44] #knownspace> Hippy: I gather that Paul is the Libertarian arm of the Republicans?
[15:44] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, Hippy. But he's run as an independent in the past in the general election.
[15:45] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah, good. Thought I had that right
[15:45] #knownspace> Lensman: We
[15:45] #knownspace> Hippy: It explained why the result in Iowa was significant for him
[15:45] #knownspace> Lensman: We're in the primary stage now, the Republicans are arging over which candidate they want to run against Obama.
[15:46] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah, I get it.
[15:46] #knownspace> Lensman: I think Ron Paul runs in every presidential election.
[15:47] #knownspace> Larry: I remember. I did write "Nightmare: the Genetics Game", then forgot the title.
[15:47] #knownspace> Lensman: But it's very hard for a 3rd party candidate to get on the ballot in all 50 states + D.C.
[15:47] #knownspace> Hippy: My faith in the integrity of the site is considerably restored :)
[15:48] #knownspace> Lensman: Unfortunately the U.S. political system is strongly weighted in favor of the two major parties.
[15:48] #knownspace> Lensman: At both the state and national level.
[15:49] #knownspace> Hippy: Same here. Seems to be inevitable over time in any parliamentary system
[15:49] #knownspace> Larry: What about France? Many parties.
[15:50] #knownspace> Lensman: Really? I thought the parliamentary system was much more inclusive of minor parties, in that they are often invited into coalitions to form a majority.
[15:50] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, yes, but they're new to parliamentary democracy :)
[15:51] #knownspace> Hippy: There were lots of minor parties even in the 19th century US, but it sort of stablised
[15:52] #knownspace> Hippy: As minor parties strive to gain more votes, they cover a wider spectrum of views, and sooner or later one party comes to cover all sorts of views, so it becomes the dominant party. But you have two of them because the myth of legitimacy (Pournelle phrase there) says you need an opposition
[15:52] #knownspace> Hippy: Later a new issue comes up that some other party is really keen on, so you get a third party but that sooner or later gets absorbed into the larger party anyway
[15:53] #knownspace> Hippy: Of course, there are loacl condiitions that might slow the process down. South Africa has white people who wont' vote for the ANC, so there's another party for them
[15:54] #knownspace> Hippy: Eventually the ANC will say 'We like White' and the minor parties will disappear
[15:54] #knownspace> Hippy: At least, that's my theory :)
[15:54] #knownspace> Hippy: My other theory is that brontosauruses were very thin at one end, much much thikcker in the middle. . .
[15:55] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry: So do you recall how "Nightmare: The Genetics Game" came to be? Did you, perhaps, write it for publication in /Reason/ magazine, but it wound up not getting published?
[15:56] #knownspace> NickE: can't go wrong with a Python ref Hipy :-)
[15:56] #knownspace> sean: Fred mentioned cons earlier. I am pretty sure I am going to Liberty Con this year. Anybody else?
[15:57] #knownspace> Lensman: Just as in /1984/, you need an Opposition to blame everything bad on. It's all the Opposition's fault, none of it is our responsibility!
[15:57] #knownspace> NickE: or was it Python?
[15:57] #knownspace> Hippy: Me, Sean
[15:57] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, Python.
[15:57] #knownspace> NickE: no it must have been
[15:57] #knownspace> Hippy: It was Python
[15:58] #knownspace> sean: Pretty sure Dan Hollifield will be there as well.
[15:58] #knownspace> Hippy: Excellent!
[15:58] #knownspace> Larry: Lensman: I don't remember how it came to be written, but these are old ideas. Maybe I'll sell it somewhere someday.
[15:58] #knownspace> NickE: slightly amnesiac brackets Nick brackets
[15:59] #knownspace> sean: will see if someone will sign my rather beat up first edition copy of Ringworld.
[16:00] #knownspace> Hippy: First edition? Well done!
[16:00] #knownspace> Lensman: Wikipedia has the Python sketch as "Anne Elk's Theory on Brontosauruses".
[16:00] #knownspace> Hippy: Maybe I can get my Kindle autographed?
[16:00] #knownspace> NickE: thats the one
[16:00] #knownspace> Hippy: That's the one
[16:00] #knownspace> sean: I got a kindle touch for Christmas as well.
[16:00] #knownspace> Larry: Pournelle and I will be at Liberty Con. Guests.
[16:00] #knownspace> NickE: shiny
[16:01] #knownspace> NickE: wish I could go
[16:01] #knownspace> sean: I know... thats a big reason I am going.
[16:01] EML has joined #knownspace
[16:01] #knownspace> Hippy: It was the reasonI was going. NOw it's one of two
[16:01] #knownspace> EML: Hi, guys.
[16:01] #knownspace> Lensman: I hadn't even considered that advantage of dead tree books over e-books. Kinda hard to sign an e-book!
[16:01] #knownspace> NickE: Hoping that London is sucessful in its WorldCon 2014 bid
[16:01] #knownspace> Hippy: Hi, Ed
[16:01] #knownspace> NickE: Hi Ed
[16:01] #knownspace> Lensman: Welcome, Ed!
[16:01] #knownspace> sean: had planned to go the last time you were there, Larry, but a rapidly rising Kentucky River and my parents out of town (live on the river) caused me to stay here.
[16:01] #knownspace> Larry: Hi Ed.
[16:02] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, they got my vote, Nick
[16:02] #knownspace> EML: I was just in London -- very enjoyable (except not so much for meals).
[16:02] #knownspace> NickE: Ty
[16:02] #knownspace> Hippy: Or did they? Can't remember now if I got the chance to vote for 2014
[16:02] dmac44 has joined #knownspace
[16:02] #knownspace> dmac44: hi guys
[16:03] #knownspace> Lensman: Hello to everyone just arriving.
[16:03] #knownspace> NickE: hi
[16:03] #knownspace> Hippy: Hi, dmac
[16:03] #knownspace> sean: Mark, I am thinking we probably don't need to try to fix the Java client.
[16:03] #knownspace> Larry: I had no trouble getting on line.
[16:04] #knownspace> sean: good. The flash client makes it extremely easy
[16:04] #knownspace> sean: tho Fred on his Mac had a problem
[16:05] #knownspace> NickE: eris has worked very well for me
[16:05] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, that'll teach hijm
[16:05] #knownspace> NickE: (and I always used to have trouble staying on)
[16:05] #knownspace> dmac44: Eris has worked well for me to.
[16:06] #knownspace> Lensman: I guess I'm on Eris, whatever that is. I thought I was using ChatZilla.
[16:07] #knownspace> Hippy: Im on mIRC, which is stable here though performed badly when I was in Florida last year
[16:07] #knownspace> sean: I use the linux version of X-chat
[16:07] #knownspace> sean: but I am on the same lan as the server so truly expect no problems
[16:08] #knownspace> Lensman: Eris seems to be very stable, altho unfortunately after awhile the chat record scrolls off and I can't go back and re-read it.
[16:08] #knownspace> sean: hmm, I dont know if that is a configurable option. I can check.
[16:08] #knownspace> Lensman: If that was addressed to me, Sean, then I would appreciate it sincerely.
[16:09] #knownspace> sean: so i was out earlier. lucifers anvil is going to be a modernized lucifers hammer?
[16:09] #knownspace> sean: I can look Lens. Don't know much about flash programming tho.
[16:10] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, from what Larry said I guess /Lucifer's Anvil/ will be a modern retelling of /Hammer/.
[16:11] #knownspace> Lensman: What is the chat room code for that message thing?
[16:11] #knownspace> sean: hmmm
[16:11] #knownspace> sean: i used to know
[16:12] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: slash me
[16:12] #knownspace> sean: thats right
[16:12] #knownspace> Lensman: Thanks JMJ
[16:12] #knownspace> sean: memory failure on my part
[16:13] #knownspace> sean: you'll figure it out
[16:14] #knownspace> Larry: Re Anvil: this time we'll try to stop the intruder.
[16:14] #knownspace> sean: with what. not much a space program now
[16:14] #knownspace> EML: a quiet bunch today. is everyone still hungover from new year's eve ;-)
[16:15] #knownspace> sean: I would hate to depend on the chinese
[16:15] #knownspace> Lensman: Actually, Ed, Larry came in early today, so you've missed a lot of chat.
[16:15] #knownspace> sean: Ed, I think we are still floundering for a topic
[16:15] #knownspace> dmac44: We don't have much in the way of heavy lift capability today.
[16:15] #knownspace> NickE: interesting to explore what *could* be done
[16:15] #knownspace> NickE: Michael
[16:16] #knownspace> sean: Unless there are actually baby elephants dropping on our heads, I doubt that would happen Nick
[16:16] #knownspace> EML: My next book out deals (in part) with asteroid deflection.
[16:16] #knownspace> NickE: if you had enough time
[16:16] #knownspace> NickE: :-)
[16:16] #knownspace> Lensman: Here I was biting my tongue not saying /Michael/ !
[16:17] #knownspace> sean: Ed, are your books available kindle wise?
[16:17] #knownspace> Lensman: But remember, the story that was published as /Lucifer's Hammer/ started out as /Footfall/, but with Moties instead of the Fithp.
[16:17] #knownspace> Lensman: So you see, /Michael/ fits right in.
[16:18] #knownspace> EML: sean: all of my books are available on kindle. most are on other ebook platforms, too.
[16:18] #knownspace> sean: cool.. I am flat loving the kindle
[16:19] #knownspace> EML: since you were so kind as to ask, here's the complete set of links: http://edward-m-lerner.blogspot.com/2010/06/kindling-interest.html
[16:19] #knownspace> NickE: must admit, I envy my son's, it's very near
[16:19] #knownspace> NickE: neat
[16:19] #knownspace> Hippy: Oh, good, I might snap those up
[16:19] #knownspace> sean: i got the kindle touch. didnt care about apps and stuff with the fire. just wanted to read
[16:20] #knownspace> EML: I continue to hold out for a color e-ink kindle. the Kindle Fire doesn't tempt me (much).
[16:20] #knownspace> Hippy: I still have the first one I bought. Not bad, but it uses a lot of coal and some of the valves are weakening
[16:20] #knownspace> NickE: I'd heard it wasnt as good for reading books
[16:20] #knownspace> sean: the only thing i would add to the kindle is a switchable backlight. just like a regular book, you need light to read it
[16:21] #knownspace> Hippy: You can buy clip on lights for it
[16:21] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: i got a kindle for xmas
[16:21] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: nice device
[16:21] #knownspace> sean: i have a clip light. just saying
[16:21] #knownspace> NickE: agree - I see a lady on my regular bus who has teh attachable light, but it seems a faff
[16:22] #knownspace> NickE: works OK, but kida spoils the whole "all in one" idea
[16:22] #knownspace> EML: of course a kindle would look lonely on a wall of shelves.
[16:22] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: i've got a clip light. i just use it in the light
[16:22] #knownspace> Hippy: Amaonz's point was to save battery life, but I don't know howmuch batytery power a backlight would use these days
[16:22] #knownspace> sean: they make a cover that has a light and runs off the kindle's battery... about 60 bucks tho
[16:23] #knownspace> EML: i prefer no backlight: it's easier on the eyes. that's why I won't get a Fire.
[16:24] #knownspace> NickE: the e-ink is very easy on teh eye
[16:24] #knownspace> EML: agreed, nick.
[16:24] #knownspace> Hippy: An interesting thing for doing your library would be if small printers set up to make your books in whatever style you like. You then buy the electronic copy and the printing rights, and you can have your books made up to look nice on your shelves. If your shelves arne't crammed with DVDs, that is
[16:25] #knownspace> Lensman: I haven't tried an e-reader, but from looking at YouTube demos, I think I'd prefer a Nook from Barnes & Noble.
[16:25] #knownspace> sean: my local library will loan you books straight to the kindle but the selection is still small.
[16:25] #knownspace> Hippy: So is Amazon's
[16:25] #knownspace> Hippy: Where are the Riverwoeld stories, for example? Or more Niven!!!
[16:26] #knownspace> Lensman: The optimum solution would be for there to be a backlight if you turn it on, but not if you don't.
[16:26] #knownspace> sean: that should of said library system. the local library just links to the kentucky library system
[16:26] #knownspace> NickE: I like dead tree real books, but for portability and ease of use, I could well go for a Kindle
[16:26] #knownspace> sean: thats why i said switchable backlight. ;)
[16:26] #knownspace> NickE: would make sense
[16:26] #knownspace> Lensman: The selection of Niven e-books unfortunately seems rather small. :(
[16:26] #knownspace> Hippy: The other strong thing about the Kindle is text to speech. I love that feature!!
[16:27] #knownspace> Lensman: Sean: Sorry, trying to catch up here.
[16:27] #knownspace> sean: flip it on for the inevitable insomnia nights so you dont disturb your partner
[16:27] #knownspace> NickE: it can pronounce Kzin correctly!
[16:27] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: i'm reading all these shirlock holmes books, for free on this thing
[16:27] #knownspace> sean: have not tried the text to speech
[16:27] #knownspace> Hippy: It does a good job with 'Kzin' but its Sindarin is well below par. . .
[16:28] #knownspace> NickE: heh
[16:28] #knownspace> EML: if the Kindle can pronounce kzin properly, it's smarter than my gps (which can't handle Roanake).
[16:28] #knownspace> sean: LOL
[16:28] #knownspace> NickE: but Sindarin is based on Finnish IIRC
[16:28] #knownspace> Hippy: Yes
[16:28] #knownspace> NickE: which is kind of an odd one language wie
[16:28] #knownspace> NickE: wise
[16:29] #knownspace> Hippy: It would probably do better if the Sindarin was spelt FONETIKLEE
[16:29] #knownspace> Hippy: But the main thing is you get the sense of what's being said
[16:30] #knownspace> Hippy: Audiobooks are great if you can afford them
[16:30] #knownspace> sean: I think they are best if you are doing a bunch of travelling
[16:30] #knownspace> Hippy: The guy who did 'Footfall' does a good job with the fithp's speech
[16:31] #knownspace> Lensman: Speaking of Homes, the 2nd season of "Sherlock" has started on BBC.
[16:31] #knownspace> sean: bio
[16:32] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, the Kindle can play them, too, so that's handy
[16:32] #knownspace> Hippy: So. . .this flying naked on planes. . .
[16:33] #knownspace> NickE: Sherlock has ben excellent fun so far
[16:33] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, the best thing currently on TV IMHO.
[16:33] #knownspace> NickE: agree
[16:33] #knownspace> NickE: in teh UK too
[16:33] #knownspace> Hippy: Same here
[16:33] #knownspace> Lensman: Unfortunately only 3 episodes in the 1st season. :(
[16:34] #knownspace> Lensman: That's "first series" to y'all across the Pond.
[16:34] #knownspace> Hippy: That's how they keep the quality up
[16:34] #knownspace> Lensman: Yup.
[16:34] #knownspace> Lensman: Better a few high-quality than more mediocre ones.
[16:34] #knownspace> NickE: no argument there
[16:35] #knownspace> NickE: crackingly good stuff
[16:35] #knownspace> sean: all i ever see (for the most part) on bbca is gordon ramsey
[16:35] #knownspace> NickE: twat
[16:35] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: yeah.
[16:35] #knownspace> Lensman: My sympathies.
[16:35] #knownspace> Hippy: No argument there
[16:35] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: i'm sick of cooking shows... and that gasbag shouting at people
[16:36] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, it'll be gardening shows next
[16:36] #knownspace> sean: i dont watch him... just see kitchen nightmares with some blow hard yelling at people that should not own skillets in the satellite guide
[16:36] #knownspace> Lensman: He's on BBC America; I watched a few minutes of one show to see what it was about. Gosh, this guy is almost as obnoxious as Jerry Springer.
[16:37] #knownspace> sean: yep bbca
[16:39] #knownspace> NickE: brb
[16:40] #knownspace> Hippy: If people flew naked on planes, they might start to do other things naked as well. They might have to be naked to enter a government building, or a bank, or some other security conscious areas. Like the Superbowl
[16:41] #knownspace> Hippy: A party, the Americdan Nudists Conference, gets stated up and wins a few seats in the House
[16:41] #knownspace> Hippy: IDing people is as simple as a DNA swab
[16:41] #knownspace> Lensman: Re naked in all high-security areas: Yeah. Gonna be a problem for the Superbowl, which is not in a climate-controlled building, tho. People are gonna get cold.
[16:42] #knownspace> Hippy: Then you have clothing colonies
[16:42] #knownspace> Hippy: They might move it to JUne, Lens
[16:42] #knownspace> dmac44: And those public employees doing the swabbing will be called Swabbies! :)
[16:42] #knownspace> Lensman: Maybe the stadium will issue clothing once you pass thru security. Like prison clothing?
[16:43] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah, that would work
[16:43] #knownspace> Hippy: Disposable paper suits for public events
[16:43] #knownspace> Hippy: But then, a plane could have those, too
[16:43] #knownspace> Lensman: That sounds more reasonable, Hippy.
[16:44] #knownspace> Hippy: Until someone smuggles on a flammable suit and destroys the plane, then we're back to nude passengers again
[16:44] #knownspace> Lensman: Nah, if you let the plane passengers wear disposable clothing, it takes all the fun out of the story.
[16:45] #knownspace> Hippy: Now, if you're naked and you're on the red eye
[16:45] #knownspace> NickE: heheh
[16:46] #knownspace> Hippy: So that's me out of any future WorldCons
[16:47] #knownspace> sean: Will try to make a Con period before thinking of WorldCon
[16:47] #knownspace> sean: LibertyCon will be my first.
[16:47] #knownspace> Hippy: Forget the red eye. Hostesses are pretty enogh as it is. Egad!
[16:48] #knownspace> Hippy: And so we come back to 'a plane trip just isn't worth the hassle'
[16:49] #knownspace> Lensman: Isn't that what we already have? Aren't people avoiding flying on airplanes unless they have a compelling reason? It's a cliche to say "The terrorists have won", but isn't it true?
[16:50] #knownspace> Hippy: Not here. People are flying just as much as they always have, and much more overseas now with our dollar so high
[16:50] #knownspace> Hippy: The reasosn people travel haven't changed, so if they have to go somewhere they still fly
[16:51] #knownspace> Hippy: But international flights for US people have probably reduced due to the cost of being overseas
[16:51] #knownspace> sean: The last big trip I took was a couple of years ago when I captained my parents houseboat 1400 miles down the Ohio, Tennessee-Tombigbee waterway and the itracoastal from Indiana to Fort Walton Florida. talk about a trip.
[16:52] #knownspace> Hippy: That would've been fun
[16:52] #knownspace> sean: 23 days
[16:52] #knownspace> Lensman: Well of course it's dangerous to assume a trend from anecdotes. I've seen a lot of people saying "I just prefer to drive these days, rather than take the plane", but perhaps that's only a tiny percentage.
[16:53] #knownspace> EML: I've got an errand to run before dinner, so I'll be off. Bye all.
[16:53] #knownspace> sean: later ed
[16:53] #knownspace> sean: thanks for the link
[16:53] #knownspace> NickE: TTFN Ed
[16:53] #knownspace> Lensman: Attacking transportation and communication is perhaps the most effective way to conduct a low-level war against a country. Reduce commerce far enough, you drive a society back to the feudal era.
[16:54] #knownspace> Larry: I'll break off too. Bye, all.
[16:54] #knownspace> sean: see ya, Larry
[16:54] #knownspace> Hippy: 'Bye, Larry
[16:54] #knownspace> Lensman: Bye Larry
[16:55] #knownspace> Hippy: But can you think of an exmaple of that happening, Lens?
[16:56] #knownspace> Lensman: Insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan attacking fuel trucks.
[16:56] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, yeah. . .are they feudal societies, though?
[16:56] #knownspace> Lensman: Not a very good example, it's the best I can come up with immediately.
[16:56] #knownspace> Hippy: Fair enough
[16:57] #knownspace> Hippy: In principle, though, you're right.
[16:57] #knownspace> Lensman: I'd argue that the tribalism in Arabian countries isn't even up to Feudal level.
[16:57] #knownspace> sean: afghanistan is basically feudal but iraq is a bit more urban
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[16:58] #knownspace> dmac44: sorry about that.
[16:58] #knownspace> sean: wb
[16:58] #knownspace> Lensman: I don't know that anyone has ever deliberately conducted a campaign to drive a civilization into a feudal state, but that's what happened when the Roman Empire collapsed. Travel became too dangerous, trade dropped off, local areas became isolated, and a feudal state arose.
[16:58] #knownspace> sean: Ed and Larry took off while you were gone dmac
[16:58] #knownspace> dmac44: Thanks for the FYI
[16:59] #knownspace> Lensman: Afghanistan is certainly more tribal than Iraq.
[16:59] #knownspace> Hippy: Good point, Lens
[16:59] #knownspace> dmac44: Isn't air travel back at 2000 levels?
[16:59] #knownspace> Hippy: So, maybe a terrorist organisation could manufacture something with the same effects as a Roman Empire collapse, but that would be one hell of an organisation
[17:01] #knownspace> Akiraa: well, civilization didn't end when Rome collapsed
[17:01] #knownspace> dmac44: Hippy: The terrorist organization would have to believe that they could survive such a collapse better than everyone else.
[17:01] #knownspace> Akiraa: in fact, Rome became oppressive way before it ended
[17:02] #knownspace> Akiraa: in the last days it was worse living under the Roman empire than immediately after
[17:02] #knownspace> sean: Rome collapsed as much from within through curruption as invasion
[17:02] #knownspace> Hippy: But a lot of terrorist organisations would believe that, dmac
[17:02] #knownspace> Akiraa: by the 3rd century the economy had become centralized
[17:02] #knownspace> Akiraa: the monetary system collapsed due to inflation and price controls
[17:03] #knownspace> Akiraa: then the roman state set to make a planned economy based on the material needs of the army
[17:03] #knownspace> Hippy: People do have horror stories of terrorists shutting down the Internet and thus destroying civilisation
[17:03] #knownspace> Hippy: But I doubt civlisation is that fragile
[17:03] #knownspace> dmac44: There have been recent articles on mutations to the bird flu virus (5 I think) that would make it airborne and at 60% leathality could at the very least cause serious problems.
[17:04] #knownspace> Akiraa: the deadliest diseases are those with a transmission rate of what, 1-2%?
[17:04] #knownspace> Hippy: Definitely economic problems
[17:05] #knownspace> dmac44: The black death in Europe 1000 years ago killed off about 1/2 of the population at the time I believe.
[17:05] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: ed milibands eyes are too close together
[17:05] #knownspace> Akiraa: in Europe, EU advocates are manning the fort asking for more powers
[17:06] #knownspace> dmac44: They recovered but with a high energy civilization it would be more difficult.
[17:06] #knownspace> sean: yeah dmac but think about transmission... back then walking down the street was basically swimming in garbage
[17:06] #knownspace> Akiraa: I would argue our world is decentralized enough for it not be destroyed by any willing nation
[17:06] #knownspace> Akiraa: still is :)
[17:06] #knownspace> Lensman: dmac: About 30% from what I've read, altho perhaps different authorities don't agree.
[17:07] #knownspace> Hippy: But if the virus is airborne it doen't matter where you walk
[17:07] #knownspace> Lensman: According to one analysis, that was close to causing the civilization to collapse.
[17:08] #knownspace> sean: the only thing running through my mind right now is a guy hitting a bell and yelling 'Bring out your dead!'
[17:08] #knownspace> Akiraa: we have to keep in mind that we are materially able to harness thousands of times more energy our ancestors ever could
[17:08] #knownspace> Hippy: "I can't take him. He's not dead."
[17:08] #knownspace> Hippy: "I feel happy!"
[17:08] #knownspace> Akiraa: if there's a recession, we're just going to fall from way high to a little less way high
[17:09] #knownspace> Lensman: I guess we have different definitions of a "collapse" of civilization, Akiraa. I'm going by what Jared Diamond said in /Guns, Germs & Steel: The Fates of Human Societies".
[17:09] #knownspace> Akiraa: insignificant if you compare yourself to someone living 2K years ago
[17:09] #knownspace> dmac44: But it set the stage for later growth. As I understand it, everyone who lived got richer (on average) and that capital allowed western civilization to expand more rapidly.
[17:09] #knownspace> Lensman: The Roman Empire civilzation collapsed, and was replaced by a number of smaller feudal civilizations.
[17:09] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, how woudl you define 'collapse', Lens?
[17:09] #knownspace> Akiraa: they had to endure war, famine, plague etc
[17:09] #knownspace> Akiraa: 60% of the population died in the plague of Justinian
[17:10] #knownspace> Hippy: If we could pick which 60%
[17:10] #knownspace> Akiraa: politicians and lobbyists first :)
[17:10] #knownspace> Akiraa: bankers third
[17:10] #knownspace> Hippy: Chinese and Indians second
[17:11] #knownspace> Hippy: . . .present company excepted, of course
[17:12] #knownspace> sean: Julie getting hungry... need to prep dinner
[17:13] #knownspace> sean: guess i could take the laptop in the kitchen
[17:13] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, we'd be sorry to lose you over food :)
[17:14] sean_ has joined #knownspace
[17:14] #knownspace> sean_: laptop
[17:15] #knownspace> Hippy: Excellent
[17:15] #knownspace> dmac44: Using the Alfred Packer cookbook? :)
[17:16] #knownspace> sean_: nope... making garlic jalepeno tilapia from johnny carinos
[17:16] #knownspace> dmac44: probably better for you.
[17:17] #knownspace> Hippy: Sounds scrumdiddlyumptious
[17:17] #knownspace> sean_: its pretty tasty
[17:17] #knownspace> sean_: let me find a link
[17:18] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, the die-off from the Black Plague was of great benefit to the survivors. Not only did eveoryne get richer, but the labor shortage caused wages to rise signficantly.
[17:18] #knownspace> Hippy: So a 60% die off might not be a bad thing
[17:19] #knownspace> Hippy: Of course, I'm a bit too dependent on modern cilisation to last long without it
[17:19] #knownspace> sean_: this is the recipe i use. http://www.food.com/recipe/jalapeno-garlic-tilapia-by-johnny-carinos-192519
[17:20] #knownspace> Hippy: Australia could survive perfectly well with 4.4 million people. At least, it did in the 1940's
[17:20] #knownspace> dmac44: Sean: Looks good but I'm not much of a cook.
[17:20] #knownspace> Hippy: America with 128 million is about the middle 50's
[17:21] #knownspace> Hippy: I try to avoid cooking because of what happened to Gordon Ramsay
[17:21] #knownspace> dmac44: Anyone remember the book Earth Abides?
[17:22] #knownspace> sean_: I love to cook.. no interest in yelling at people who cant
[17:22] #knownspace> Hippy: The UK with 14 million people is about, what, 1910?
[17:22] #knownspace> NickE: tried to read it...got bogged down
[17:22] #knownspace> NickE: supposed to be a classic
[17:22] #knownspace> Hippy: So you can sort of guess at what level of vilisation places would be based on when their population was 40% of what it is today
[17:22] #knownspace> NickE: startded well, but kinda got slower and slower
[17:23] #knownspace> dmac44: Read it long ago. It's about a plague that kills off a large % of the population.
[17:23] #knownspace> Hippy: Oh, yes, 'Earth Abides' "Too much ecology, not enough story" as Larry once said
[17:24] #knownspace> NickE: I'd agree with that assement (I read about 60% of it oddly enough :-)
[17:24] #knownspace> Lensman: I've seen it claimed that anything much more than a 30% die-off causes a collapse. Too many vital positions go unfilled. If the guy who runs the power plant *and* his assistant die, nobody is left who knows how to operate it.
[17:25] #knownspace> Hippy: So you're reduced toa civilisation without electricity. Or, say, 1910 US
[17:26] #knownspace> Hippy: Yes, there was electricity then but not much of it. And of course, someone can come up and fix things
[17:26] #knownspace> dmac44: we are much more concentrated in cities than we were back then. Food production requires high tech today (oil, fertilizer, etc). The adjustment would be brutal.
[17:26] #knownspace> Hippy: Now, 'The Quiet Earth' is a case where civilisation would completely collapse
[17:27] #knownspace> Hippy: The initial adjustment certainly would be
[17:28] #knownspace> Hippy: And it depends on how quck the die off is
[17:29] #knownspace> Hippy: Ranging from 'The Quiet Earth' with about 1 second's die off, all the way to Clifford D Simnka's 'city' stories where it takes thousands of years
[17:30] #knownspace> Hippy: It would be interesting to carry out an experiemnt. Pick a manageable town , like Frankfort, and just take random people away from it over time (send them on a holiday) and see what breaks down and how people cope
[17:30] #knownspace> Hippy: And of course film it for TV broadcast
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[17:32] #knownspace> Hippy: It would be like that Star Trek episode
[17:32] #knownspace> Hippy: Ssh, he's here
[17:33] #knownspace> dmac44: lol
[17:33] #knownspace> Lensman: It's an old joke, but it just might work...
[17:34] #knownspace> dmac44: though I thought it was duct.
[17:34] #knownspace> Lensman: There's an argument over that.
[17:34] #knownspace> Hippy: Yes, this 'duck tape' sounds interesting
[17:35] #knownspace> Lensman: But I'm convinced by the argument that the first references were to a tape made from a type of cloth called "duck", for its ability to shed water.
[17:35] #knownspace> Lensman: The term "duct tape" came later.
[17:35] #knownspace> Hippy: Hmm. . .
[17:35] #knownspace> NickE: cheese break
[17:35] #knownspace> dmac44: I always assumed that the tape was used to hold pieces of ducting together, hence the name.
[17:35] #knownspace> NickE: no really
[17:36] #knownspace> NickE: afk
[17:36] #knownspace> Hippy: That's what I thought, too
[17:36] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, that's the usual argument.
[17:36] #knownspace> Hippy: It's one of the rare examples of convergent etymology
[17:36] #knownspace> dmac44: But if I wanted to hold two ducks together ...
[17:36] #knownspace> Lensman: But the original use of duck tape was to seal the seams on metal ammo boxes, so they could be immersed without getting the bullets wet.
[17:37] #knownspace> Lensman: Or the first widespread use, anyway.
[17:37] #knownspace> Lensman: LOL two ducks...
[17:37] #knownspace> Lensman: Or any water fowl!
[17:37] #knownspace> dmac44: I cry fowl sir!
[17:38] #knownspace> Lensman: You'll egret that remark, sir!
[17:38] #knownspace> dmac44: lol
[17:38] #knownspace> dmac44: greatly
[17:39] #knownspace> sean_: robert asprin is rolling over in his grave
[17:42] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, all this talk of bird crulety has inspired me to sieze the day, so I shall be AFK for about half an hour
[17:43] #knownspace> sean_: nobody going after geek points for the asprin reference?
[17:44] #knownspace> dmac44: I missed it.
[17:44] #knownspace> sean_: all the puns and i mentioned robert asprin rolling over in his grave
[17:45] #knownspace> dmac44: Oh!
[17:45] #knownspace> dmac44: I was barking up the wrong tree.
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[17:47] #knownspace> dmac44: asprin comes from the bark of the willow tree.
[17:48] #knownspace> sean_: robert asprin wrote much of the myth series... very pun oriented light fantasy
[17:49] #knownspace> dmac44: I have chores to do. See you all next month.
[17:53] #knownspace> Lensman: There are more famous punsters. Like Piers Anthony, in the Xanth series.
[17:54] #knownspace> Lensman: Is Aspirin known for punning outside the "Myth Adventures" novels?
[17:56] #knownspace> Lensman: Asprin... willow tree... sorry that was too obscure for me.
[17:58] #knownspace> Lensman: I greatly enjoyed the "Myth Adventures" series for several books, but I think Aspirin ran out of good material.
[17:59] #knownspace> Lensman: It's a mistake to try to turn a light-hearted fun series into something more serious. You can't build a brick house on a foundation of sand.
[17:59] #knownspace> Lensman: Stick to the grass hut.
[17:59] #knownspace> sean_: if you want puns... go for the callahan books
[17:59] #knownspace> sean_: spider robinson is really good at them
[18:00] #knownspace> Lensman: I've read three or four of 'em but I confess they never really drew me in. And I lost interest with /Callahan's Lady/. Just not to my taste at all.
[18:01] #knownspace> sean_: the lady slings the booze?
[18:01] #knownspace> Lensman: :)
[18:01] #knownspace> sean_: in itself a pun
[18:12] #knownspace> Hippy: Huh! Exactly half an hour. There's luck
[18:14] #knownspace> Hippy: So, anyway. I read one or two Callahan stories but felt much the same way Lens does
[18:18] #knownspace> Hippy: Haven't read any Asprin
[18:20] #knownspace> sean: cooking for julie complete
[18:21] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah, there you are!
[18:21] #knownspace> sean: back on main pc
[18:23] #knownspace> sean: laptop is closed up
[18:23] #knownspace> NickE: back
[18:23] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah, excellent. I wonder if Nick is back from his cheese break?
[18:24] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah, it appears he is
[18:25] #knownspace> Hippy: I haven't a thought in my head at the momemt
[18:25] #knownspace> sean: I would not mind a wine and cheese break BS'ing with Nick but it is a complicated drive.
[18:25] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: he's too far away from me.... where do you live, nick?
[18:25] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, there will be plenty of wine and cheese at LibertyCon
[18:26] #knownspace> sean: I hope to have a healthy bar budget
[18:26] #knownspace> NickE: yum
[18:27] #knownspace> NickE: Near Banbury
[18:27] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: i'm hell and gone from there
[18:27] #knownspace> sean: I am further.
[18:28] #knownspace> NickE: The Leamington meetup never materialised :-(
[18:28] #knownspace> Hippy: I think I can trump that
[18:28] #knownspace> NickE: KY, yeah, that's a ways further
[18:28] #knownspace> NickE: Or Aus
[18:28] #knownspace> NickE: :-)
[18:28] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: aa route planner says 166.5 miles
[18:28] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: 2:46 travel time
[18:28] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: i bet more like 2x that.
[18:28] #knownspace> NickE: on a good day
[18:30] #knownspace> NickE: Vesuvius Cheddar...om nom nom nom
[18:30] #knownspace> NickE: (chili cheese)
[18:31] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah. . .a name so redolent of the English countryside
[18:32] #knownspace> Hippy: Happy villagers, a benevolent squire, the volcano erupting
[18:32] #knownspace> NickE: plus French Brie, Emmental, Shropshire Blue (that's English), Cheddar (Truckle Cheese Co. possibly the nicest cheddar evah)
[18:32] #knownspace> sean: is that an exsplosively hot cheese?
[18:32] #knownspace> NickE: fairly pokey
[18:33] #knownspace> NickE: not ridiculous - you can still taste the cheddar, but warm enough
[18:33] #knownspace> Hippy: That also sounds like a Python ref
[18:33] #knownspace> NickE: no Bazuki music here
[18:34] #knownspace> NickE: and yes our cat will eat cheese :-)
[18:34] #knownspace> Hippy: Oh, and I'm one who delights in all manifestations of the Terpsichorean Muse
[18:34] #knownspace> NickE: lol
[18:35] #knownspace> Hippy: No matter how runny it is?
[18:35] #knownspace> sean: heh
[18:36] #knownspace> NickE: well,sometimes :-)
[18:37] #knownspace> NickE: "Is this a cheese shop?"
[18:37] #knownspace> NickE: "No sir"
[18:38] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, that's that sketch knackered
[18:38] #knownspace> NickE: "well thats' that sketch knackered then "
[18:38] #knownspace> sean: is this the right room for an argument?
[18:38] #knownspace> NickE: bugger!
[18:38] #knownspace> Hippy: I told you once
[18:38] #knownspace> Hippy: No, no, this is too silly, too silly!
[18:38] #knownspace> sean: no you havent
[18:39] #knownspace> Hippy: You got the quote right, though, NIck
[18:39] #knownspace> NickE: heh
[18:39] #knownspace> Hippy: I left off the 'then'
[18:39] #knownspace> NickE: indeed
[18:39] #knownspace> Hippy: Young Ones, in case people haven't seen that series
[18:40] #knownspace> NickE: but that the second time youve anticipated what I was thinking quicker than I could type it
[18:40] #knownspace> NickE: Such an 80s show. Fun tho'
[18:40] #knownspace> Hippy: I just have a good memory for sketches, I suppose
[18:40] #knownspace> Hippy: It certainly reminded me of my student days
[18:40] #knownspace> NickE: Would Rik actually *be* teh peoples oet?
[18:41] #knownspace> Hippy: and is the source for the 'Hippy' nickname
[18:41] #knownspace> NickE: ah
[18:41] #knownspace> sean: come on nick... pony up and put another mortgage on your house so you can have a beer with us in chattanooga.
[18:41] #knownspace> Hippy: I suspect he might have a teaching position, one of these poets who've lost their talent but who still teach others
[18:42] #knownspace> Hippy: Yes, it would be fun to see you
[18:42] #knownspace> NickE: I don't have a mortage! Actually quite glad of that at the moment
[18:43] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, it's time you got one. You non-mortgage types are dragging the economy down!
[18:43] #knownspace> Hippy: Of course I'm renting so can hardly talk
[18:43] #knownspace> NickE: Would love it, but plastic still groaning under weight of last geek trip abroad
[18:44] #knownspace> Hippy: Well don't get extra plastic. I made that mistake :(
[18:44] #knownspace> sean: i hear ya
[18:44] #knownspace> NickE: I cleared 2/4 at least
[18:45] #knownspace> Hippy: Well done!
[18:46] #knownspace> NickE: not too bad, but well aware of danger - the amount of credit I *could* use is scary
[18:46] #knownspace> Hippy: So was mine back in the day
[18:54] #knownspace> NickE: well that was a conversation killer
[18:55] #knownspace> NickE: too fuckin serious]
[18:55] #knownspace> sean: wasnt even looking
[18:55] #knownspace> Hippy: Sorr about that
[18:55] #knownspace> Hippy: JMJ is particularly quiet. Perhaps he's driving South as we speak
[18:56] #knownspace> NickE: I do hope to mak it back to Dragon Con at some point and maybe take a few days extra
[18:56] #knownspace> sean: julie just told me she most likely wont be able to go so if someone wants to split a hotel room let me know
[18:56] #knownspace> Hippy: I shall probably be accompanied, so that's me out
[18:57] #knownspace> NickE: I won't manage it this year and as my wife hopefully will be going back to college, probably not for another 2 or 3 years
[18:57] #knownspace> sean: dan and lyn will be together so i cant ask them
[18:59] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, I shall have to see but can get back to you
[19:00] #knownspace> Hippy: Anyway, gentlemen and bots, it approches elevenses for me, so I shall see you all next month
[19:00] #knownspace> sean: keep me updated... if your friend backs out, it will save both of us a bit more for the bar tab
[19:00] #knownspace> Hippy: Now that's good thinkin'!
[19:00] #knownspace> Hippy: So, 'bye Sean, Nick, Lens, Akiraa and JMJ
[19:01] #knownspace> Akiraa: have fun, hippy
[19:01] #knownspace> Hippy: Have a good superbowl
[19:01] #knownspace> Hippy: No mater what you're wearing
[19:01] #knownspace> NickE: night Hipy
[19:30] #knownspace> NickE: bed
[19:30] #knownspace> NickE: leasure as always folks
[19:30] #knownspace> NickE: even if I can't tye ps today
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[23:18] #knownspace> Fred: jj
[23:29] jonmanyjars has joined #knownspace
[23:35] jonmanyjars has joined #knownspace
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[12:24] Fred_IRC has joined #knownspace
[12:44] jonmanyjars has joined #knownspace
[12:45] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: well, the irc server seems to be working
[12:45] #knownspace> sean: that is the eris client?
[12:45] #knownspace> sean: tis only about 20 percent loaded here
[12:46] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: haven't tried it yet. i tested it the other day and it wokred
[12:46] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: worked
[12:46] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: i just got done brining all the servers back up at work. power failure... again
[12:46] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: this place needs a backup generator
[12:46] #knownspace> sean: the screen shot he showed was the eris client and it had not opened the channel window
[12:46] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: in trying to reach the ups, i fell over a desk and landed on my head
[12:47] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: it was funny
[12:47] #knownspace> sean: i bet
[12:48] test2 has joined #knownspace
[12:48] #knownspace> test2: here i am from the eris client
[12:48] #knownspace> sean: okay
[12:48] #knownspace> test2: not using a mac though...
[12:48] #knownspace> sean: its flash... should be platform independent
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[12:51] #knownspace> Sean1783: fred is using the web interface to your bbs
[12:54] #knownspace> sean: it says he is in irc chat but i dont see him
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[13:33] #knownspace> sean: successs
[13:34] #knownspace> fredskuentz: okay, is this the main chat?
[13:34] #knownspace> fredskuentz: yes!
[13:34] #knownspace> sean: yepper
[13:34] #knownspace> fredskuentz: I have user list
[13:34] #knownspace> fredskuentz: yay!
[13:34] #knownspace> fredskuentz: sorry about all that
[13:34] #knownspace> sean: no worries
[13:34] #knownspace> sean: happy to help
[13:34] #knownspace> fredskuentz: :)
[13:35] #knownspace> sean: you can do a /nick Fred if you wish
[13:36] #knownspace> sean: illegal channel name.... hmmm... what did you finally type to get in here?
[13:49] NickE has joined #knownspace
[13:54] #knownspace> sean: hey nick
[13:55] #knownspace> sean: bye nick
[13:58] NickE has joined #knownspace
[14:08] #knownspace> NickE: evenin'
[14:09] #knownspace> sean: for you... ;)
[14:10] #knownspace> Fred: I have no idea what finally worked sean
[14:11] #knownspace> sean: just wondering
[14:12] #knownspace> Fred: me too :)
[14:12] #knownspace> sean: heh
[14:13] #knownspace> Fred: I didn't even know it worked until you said success
[14:15] #knownspace> sean: gotcha
[14:16] #knownspace> sean: i actually have a mac but it is old and i dont use it. powermac 7200/90
[14:20] #knownspace> NickE: ah. Hi Sean, Hi Fred
[14:20] #knownspace> NickE: (was checking email)
[14:20] #knownspace> Fred: hey nick
[14:22] #knownspace> NickE: I *finally* managed to get a copy of MKW IV
[14:22] #knownspace> sean: I have V and VIII on the shelf
[14:23] #knownspace> NickE: only taken what 10 years
[14:23] #knownspace> sean: there is a copy of II in the bathroom
[14:23] #knownspace> NickE: had all the others, but fir some reason 4 never came out for any length of time in the UK, even though I had no problem with the others
[14:25] #knownspace> NickE: finally gave up on *finding* it in 2nd hand shops (half the fun is the chase) and got it from Texas (97p and £2.80 postage)
[14:28] #knownspace> sean: no second hand shops in frankfort any more.
[14:28] #knownspace> sean: so it is at least a half hour on the interstate to a big town to get to one
[14:29] #knownspace> NickE: well, I have teh advantage of working in Oxford - lotsa bookshops (though fewer these days)
[14:33] #knownspace> sean: i cant remember the last time i was in a 2nd hand book shop
[14:34] #knownspace> sean: i remember the store but not when. it has to be 8 years ago. nice shop up in Louisville
[14:41] #knownspace> Fred: Our second hand shops kind of dried up and blew away
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[14:42] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: fred you got in!
[14:42] #knownspace> Fred: yeah
[14:42] #knownspace> Fred: we don't know how though
[14:43] #knownspace> Fred: I just kept clicking and pasting various permutations until I noticed Sean say 'success'
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[14:43] #knownspace> Fred: Lensman
[14:43] #knownspace> NickE: Hi Mark, Hi Lens
[14:43] #knownspace> Lensman: Hi fen!
[14:44] #knownspace> Fred: So it turns out there are at least a dozen genre conventions in Phoenix this year
[14:44] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: hey nick, lenser
[14:44] #knownspace> Fred: including two this weekend
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[14:44] #knownspace> Fred: If I decide to start leaving the house again I could be quite busy
[14:44] #knownspace> NickE: hi Hippy
[14:44] #knownspace> Hippy: Hi, Nick
[14:44] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: a dozen?
[14:45] #knownspace> Hippy: Hi everyone. How's 2012 treating you so far?
[14:46] #knownspace> NickE: meh
[14:47] #knownspace> NickE: not bad but have root canal to look fwd to soon :-(
[14:47] #knownspace> Fred: better than 2011 did, but then it would almost have to
[14:47] #knownspace> Hippy: Yes, so far it's living up to its promises, isn't it?
[14:47] #knownspace> Hippy: Ywah, Fred. How's your mum?
[14:51] #knownspace> Hippy: Er. . .I"m sorry if that was not a nice question. Moving on. . .
[14:54] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: i just got back from earby
[14:54] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: where the power company is retarded
[14:55] #knownspace> Hippy: That's a universal truth
[14:56] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: I've worked there a year. five power outages
[14:57] #knownspace> Hippy: Jesus, that's worse than here
[14:57] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: this one was long enough to down all the esx servers. they don't like that
[14:58] #knownspace> Hippy: That raises a question - who here doesn't work in IT? Me, but who else?
[14:58] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: nick doesn't
[14:58] #knownspace> NickE: noe
[14:59] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: I *KNOW* Lensman doesn't...
[14:59] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: because there is some IT, someplace that still works.
[14:59] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: :-)
[14:59] #knownspace> Hippy: LOL!
[14:59] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: i'm not sure where he actually does work though
[15:00] #knownspace> Hippy: If he told us, he'd have to kill us
[15:01] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: i've been playing with orbiter again. i keep toying with an idea... maybe Fred could help.
[15:02] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: I'd like to have a flash intro to larryniven.net with the ship from neutron star (who's name escapes me) flying around bvs-1 and then going to a logo.
[15:02] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: this is all way beyond my ability.
[15:03] #knownspace> Hippy: I don't think the ship had a name
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[15:03] #knownspace> Hippy: Still, that would look pretty snazzy
[15:03] #knownspace> sean: skydiver
[15:03] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: i can't remember
[15:03] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: hello larry!
[15:03] #knownspace> Hippy: Hi, Larry
[15:03] #knownspace> sean: Hi Larry
[15:04] #knownspace> Larry: Hello all
[15:04] #knownspace> Hippy: Skydiver, really? My memory. . .it's too early on a Sunday :)
[15:04] #knownspace> sean: Skydiver is the name of the ship in the short story Neutron Star
[15:04] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: that sounds right.
[15:04] #knownspace> sean: I just reread it
[15:05] #knownspace> Larry: How does it hold up?
[15:05] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: Isaac asimov is still annoyed, I bet
[15:05] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: from the grave.
[15:05] #knownspace> Larry: I didn't need the hyperdrive. Young and foolish.
[15:05] #knownspace> Hippy: I still like 'a contract is as binding as the tape it's recorded on'
[15:06] #knownspace> sean: pretty well, Larry, but you said yourself that the ship would leave the neutron star spinning which would kill Schaefer.
[15:06] #knownspace> Larry: Yeah. Suddenly verbal contracts wre legit.
[15:06] #knownspace> Lensman: I think other than the anacronistic reference to "tape", "Neutron Star" holds up perfectly.
[15:06] #knownspace> NickE: Hi LArry
[15:07] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: i like anacronistic references
[15:07] #knownspace> Larry: Hi NickE
[15:07] #knownspace> Lensman: Of course, we can't be sure that "tape" means a magnetic recording, any more than "dial" a phone means there is a physical dial.
[15:07] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: my wife keeps telling me not to swear, i think that's fucking annoying
[15:07] #knownspace> Hippy: In any case, 'tape' is just an expresssin. LIke I 'tape' a TV program even though there's no tape in the recording now
[15:08] #knownspace> Hippy: 'Fucking' is no longer a swear word here. There's even a court case to back that up
[15:08] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: hippy -> really, where is there?
[15:08] #knownspace> Lensman: Re spinning: Nah, Bey just didn't bother to mention that the automatic pilot used the gyros to counter the spinning.
[15:09] #knownspace> Larry: Never was. It's a technical term. "Damn" is both.
[15:09] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, Queendland. But other States would be affected by that precedent
[15:09] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, exactly Hippy. And on one forum I belong to, people keep referring to a digital recording as a "tape".
[15:09] #knownspace> Larry: The spin got into "Crashlander", the Beowulf Shaeffer novel.
[15:10] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: larry -> I have a question RE: larryniven.net: what can I call it? The offical site? The unoffical-official site? The sanctioned by Larry Niven but unoffical site? I'm having problems keeping links to it on wikipedia because it isn't the "official" site.
[15:10] #knownspace> Lensman: And the spin is mentioned in JUGGLER OF WORLDS.
[15:10] #knownspace> Lensman: I think...
[15:11] #knownspace> NickE: brb
[15:11] #knownspace> Larry: Okay, it's an official site. It's been running long enough that I trust you guys.
[15:11] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: larry -> why, thank you!
[15:11] #knownspace> Lensman: Thinking about what, JMJ?
[15:11] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: lensman -> You said, "I think..."
[15:12] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: and then nothing else
[15:12] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: and you haven't told us where you work that isn't IT.
[15:12] #knownspace> Lensman: I think the spin is mentioned in JUGGLER OF WORLDS.
[15:12] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: ah.
[15:12] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: I wish we could get R3 in here for a Saturday chat
[15:13] #knownspace> Lensman: I've worked in printing, in shipping, in customer service for several companies, including the Post Awful and an insurance servicing agency. No, I've never worked in IT. Now I'm retired.
[15:13] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: Larry, any updates on what you are working on at the moment?
[15:13] #knownspace> Lensman: I've certainly invited R3.
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[15:14] #knownspace> Hippy: Hello, Julie
[15:14] #knownspace> sean: my gf Julie wanted to ask a question
[15:14] #knownspace> Julie: Larry I have a question for you
[15:14] #knownspace> NickE: Hi Julie!
[15:14] #knownspace> Larry: I'm working on Book 2 of the Bowl of Heaven set, currently called Shipstar.
[15:14] #knownspace> Lensman: Did anyone ask Larry about "Nightmare: The Genetics Game" ?
[15:14] #knownspace> NickE: Oh cool
[15:15] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: hi julie
[15:15] #knownspace> NickE: Didn't realise it was going to be a set
[15:15] #knownspace> Julie: My son had to work on learning sentence diagraming the other nigh
[15:15] #knownspace> Larry: Also working with Jerry Pournelle on "Lucifer's Anvil" or maybe "Samael's Forge".
[15:15] #knownspace> Julie: is that still relevant to know with computers and all
[15:15] #knownspace> NickE: How is Bowl doing then?
[15:15] #knownspace> NickE: Double cool :-)
[15:15] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: larry -> cool. I haven't read the first one yet! I'll have to get on that. Are there any plans to release more of your stuff for the Kindle? You see, I got one for Christmas... and...
[15:16] #knownspace> Lensman: Oooh a sequel to /Lucifer's Hammer/ ??
[15:16] #knownspace> Lensman: One of my favorite books!
[15:16] #knownspace> NickE: shit, is Bowl *out*?!
[15:16] #knownspace> Larry: We have a working Outline and I've started writing text.
[15:17] #knownspace> Larry: Not a sequel to Lucifer's Hammer. Starting from present time, different assumptions.
[15:17] #knownspace> Hippy: That's a good question, Julie
[15:17] #knownspace> Larry: Am I confusing anyone? Greg and I have some text. So do Jerry and I.
[15:17] #knownspace> Lensman: "Bowl" doesn't seem to be out yet.
[15:17] #knownspace> NickE: hm, many restarants named Bowl of Heaven! And an astrology book
[15:18] #knownspace> Lensman: :(
[15:18] #knownspace> Julie: thanks Hippy....I just wanted a writer
[15:18] #knownspace> Lensman: And the other day when I looked, I didn't see THE FATE OF WORLDS either.
[15:18] #knownspace> Larry: Bowl won't be out till later this year.
[15:18] #knownspace> NickE: @Julie, not even sure what sentense diagramming is
[15:18] #knownspace> Julie: oops perspective so that is why I asked
[15:18] #knownspace> Larry: Fate of Worlds is due soon if it isn't out now. Not sure.
[15:18] #knownspace> Hippy: Parsing, I would imagine
[15:18] #knownspace> Lensman: Which surprised me because all the other OF WORLDS books came out in the 4th quarter of a year.
[15:19] #knownspace> NickE: Ah, I'll keep and eye out for it
[15:19] #knownspace> NickE: Ah parsing, yeah, that makes sense
[15:20] #knownspace> Larry: FYI the Fate of Worlds is the last and fifth.
[15:20] #knownspace> Hippy: For what it's worth, Julie, I would say that it is worth learning, because computers aren't very good at it
[15:20] #knownspace> NickE: Shipstar sounds like a good title
[15:20] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: nicke -> you draw diagrams of sentenaces to show you the parts of speech
[15:20] #knownspace> Hippy: Further, what grammar checkers there are force you to sound like an American :)
[15:20] #knownspace> NickE: oh right, *grammar*
[15:20] #knownspace> NickE: :-)
[15:20] #knownspace> Julie: gotcha
[15:20] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry, you provided a short article called "Nightmare: The Genetics Game" to the LarryNiven.net website. We were wondering what its previous publication history was. We can't find any reference for prior publication. Carol said you provided us with one item which hadn't been previously published anywhere. Is that the one?
[15:21] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: hippy -> my wife is doing another BA, and has me proof read her stuff. I always make it too american
[15:21] #knownspace> Hippy: But in order to write well, as Larry does, its important to know what the rules are before you break them
[15:21] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: these english types write in a passive voice
[15:21] #knownspace> Julie: I just had to reach way back in my memory to help him and it was very hard...LOL
[15:22] #knownspace> Hippy: Passive voice rules (sentence fragment)
[15:22] #knownspace> NickE: look, I was a science teacher once - the amount of dubious English that I had to decipher made me kind of relaxed about sentence structure (which is odd as I can be really picky about grammar in other circumstances)
[15:22] #knownspace> Larry: I have no memory of "Nightmare: the Genetics Game". This may be a ringer. Send me a copy, please.
[15:22] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: "For hygenic reasions, we respectfully request that you refrain from alighting onto areas that contain grass."
[15:23] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: as opposed to "Keep off the grass."
[15:23] #knownspace> Hippy: On the other hand, I hate insurance policies that start out 'Hi, Darren! Just thoght we'd let you know that. . .'
[15:24] #knownspace> Lensman: "Nightmare: The Genetics Game" can be found online here: http://www.larryniven.net/stories/nightmare.shtml
[15:24] #knownspace> NickE: indeed
[15:24] #knownspace> Lensman: What does "ringer" mean?
[15:24] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: nicke -> I escaped the fate of everyone elese in my family (becoming a teacher) by getting thrown out of ASU, repeatedly.
[15:24] #knownspace> Hippy: Somethingt masquerading as the real thing
[15:24] #knownspace> NickE: in what context?
[15:24] #knownspace> NickE: heh
[15:24] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry said "This may be a ringer."
[15:24] #knownspace> NickE: ah
[15:25] #knownspace> NickE: what Hipy said then
[15:26] #knownspace> Lensman: Perhaps I should clarify: This is something which the LarryNiven.net-- the now "Official" Larry Niven fan site-- has published, along with various other mostly obscure short articles and stories written by Larry.
[15:26] #knownspace> Lensman: "Ringer" suggests it's not authorized, or not written by Larry?
[15:26] #knownspace> Hippy: Correct, Lens
[15:27] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: i'm not sure where that one came from... i think it predates my time doing the site
[15:28] #knownspace> Larry: Carol did ask for something, but that wasn't it.
[15:28] #knownspace> Lensman: Do you want me to e-mail you a copy, Larry?
[15:28] #knownspace> sean: I just sent it
[15:28] #knownspace> Larry: Yes, Lensman.
[15:28] #knownspace> Lensman: Okay, thanks Sean.
[15:29] #knownspace> Larry: OK, sean sent it.
[15:29] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: the bibliography says it was published in December 2008 but not where
[15:29] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: it says it was written for larryniven.net
[15:29] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: http://news.larryniven.net/biblio/display.asp?key=396&search=Title%20LIKE
[15:30] #knownspace> Lensman: Hmmm that's odd. Dave, the guy who maintains the Bibliography, said he didn't know what the origin was. I guess I need to e-mail him, it sounds like he got some info since he posted that on the discussion list for the website editors.
[15:32] #knownspace> Larry: I've been designing a near-future airplane/airline extraoikatung current security practices. Passengers fly naked. It's all First Class. Haven't got a story yet.
[15:32] #knownspace> sean: heh
[15:32] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: certianly with no shoes
[15:32] #knownspace> Hippy: UNderpants-free, as well
[15:33] #knownspace> Hippy: An ideal opportunity to meet people. You have to keep your up and have some kind of conversation
[15:33] #knownspace> Lensman: I've been wondering if people will actually submit to a body cavity search before boarding. It seems there are no limits to what the average person will allow him/herself to be subjected to in order to board a passenger plane.
[15:34] #knownspace> Hippy: Pretty true, Lens
[15:34] #knownspace> Lensman: There were a few protests about "Don't touch my junk", but only a very small percentage of passengers actually objected. I find it depressing that people allow their privacy and their rights to be so casually violated.
[15:34] #knownspace> Larry: Yes, Lansman. Security for flights to Israel is extreme, and no complaints to be heard.
[15:35] #knownspace> Hippy: Yet I can kill just as many people carrying C4 on to a morning train
[15:35] #knownspace> Lensman: El Al-- the Israeli airline-- has the best security, and they don't do pat-downs of most passengers. But they *do* do "racial profiling". Horrors!
[15:35] #knownspace> Hippy: And no checks at all
[15:35] #knownspace> Hippy: The real worry now is not so much an explosion as in someone taking over the plane and parking it in a skyscraper somewhere
[15:36] #knownspace> Lensman: But their security people are highly trained in observing human behavior. Can't use minimum-wage security guards for that!
[15:36] #knownspace> Hippy: So, a naked passenger with Steven Barnes-like martial arts experience takes over the plane anyway
[15:36] #knownspace> sean: The last time I flew was about a year after 9/11. a friend and I flew one way from Louisville to West Palm Beach to pick up a car he had bought online and drive it back. Amazingly, we were both 'randomly' selected for additional screening.
[15:37] #knownspace> sean: from what i read in the news, i doubt the additional screening then is even close to the level of normal screening now
[15:37] #knownspace> Hippy: I've been tapped like that here, too. Of course, when my flight is cancelled I DO want to blow something up
[15:37] #knownspace> Larry: Hippy: shhh
[15:38] #knownspace> NickE: heh
[15:38] #knownspace> Hippy: Mum's the word, Larry
[15:38] #knownspace> Lensman: Uh oh, "Big Ear" is now listening to our chat! ;-)
[15:38] #knownspace> sean: I doubt the NSA has added a hidden module to Outsider but you never know
[15:39] #knownspace> Hippy: Let's hope their long arm doens'[ cross the equator
[15:39] #knownspace> Hippy: I"ll be nabbed at LAX, though
[15:39] #knownspace> Lensman: "arm" or "ARM" ?
[15:40] #knownspace> Larry: What used to drive the American Communists crazy was, nobody was listening to them.
[15:40] #knownspace> sean: Those are some stories I have not read in a long time... The long ARM of Gil Hamilton.
[15:40] #knownspace> Lensman: The first three Gil stories are among my favorites.
[15:40] #knownspace> Hippy: 'Flatlander' is the one to read now
[15:41] #knownspace> Hippy: Speaking of American politics, go Ron Paul!
[15:42] #knownspace> Larry: I want John Stossel, but he won't run. I'd have accepted Cain. I'll vote for Ron Paul.
[15:43] #knownspace> Hippy: Let's hope you have the option, Larry
[15:44] #knownspace> Hippy: I gather that Paul is the Libertarian arm of the Republicans?
[15:44] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, Hippy. But he's run as an independent in the past in the general election.
[15:45] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah, good. Thought I had that right
[15:45] #knownspace> Lensman: We
[15:45] #knownspace> Hippy: It explained why the result in Iowa was significant for him
[15:45] #knownspace> Lensman: We're in the primary stage now, the Republicans are arging over which candidate they want to run against Obama.
[15:46] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah, I get it.
[15:46] #knownspace> Lensman: I think Ron Paul runs in every presidential election.
[15:47] #knownspace> Larry: I remember. I did write "Nightmare: the Genetics Game", then forgot the title.
[15:47] #knownspace> Lensman: But it's very hard for a 3rd party candidate to get on the ballot in all 50 states + D.C.
[15:47] #knownspace> Hippy: My faith in the integrity of the site is considerably restored :)
[15:48] #knownspace> Lensman: Unfortunately the U.S. political system is strongly weighted in favor of the two major parties.
[15:48] #knownspace> Lensman: At both the state and national level.
[15:49] #knownspace> Hippy: Same here. Seems to be inevitable over time in any parliamentary system
[15:49] #knownspace> Larry: What about France? Many parties.
[15:50] #knownspace> Lensman: Really? I thought the parliamentary system was much more inclusive of minor parties, in that they are often invited into coalitions to form a majority.
[15:50] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, yes, but they're new to parliamentary democracy :)
[15:51] #knownspace> Hippy: There were lots of minor parties even in the 19th century US, but it sort of stablised
[15:52] #knownspace> Hippy: As minor parties strive to gain more votes, they cover a wider spectrum of views, and sooner or later one party comes to cover all sorts of views, so it becomes the dominant party. But you have two of them because the myth of legitimacy (Pournelle phrase there) says you need an opposition
[15:52] #knownspace> Hippy: Later a new issue comes up that some other party is really keen on, so you get a third party but that sooner or later gets absorbed into the larger party anyway
[15:53] #knownspace> Hippy: Of course, there are loacl condiitions that might slow the process down. South Africa has white people who wont' vote for the ANC, so there's another party for them
[15:54] #knownspace> Hippy: Eventually the ANC will say 'We like White' and the minor parties will disappear
[15:54] #knownspace> Hippy: At least, that's my theory :)
[15:54] #knownspace> Hippy: My other theory is that brontosauruses were very thin at one end, much much thikcker in the middle. . .
[15:55] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry: So do you recall how "Nightmare: The Genetics Game" came to be? Did you, perhaps, write it for publication in /Reason/ magazine, but it wound up not getting published?
[15:56] #knownspace> NickE: can't go wrong with a Python ref Hipy :-)
[15:56] #knownspace> sean: Fred mentioned cons earlier. I am pretty sure I am going to Liberty Con this year. Anybody else?
[15:57] #knownspace> Lensman: Just as in /1984/, you need an Opposition to blame everything bad on. It's all the Opposition's fault, none of it is our responsibility!
[15:57] #knownspace> NickE: or was it Python?
[15:57] #knownspace> Hippy: Me, Sean
[15:57] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, Python.
[15:57] #knownspace> NickE: no it must have been
[15:57] #knownspace> Hippy: It was Python
[15:58] #knownspace> sean: Pretty sure Dan Hollifield will be there as well.
[15:58] #knownspace> Hippy: Excellent!
[15:58] #knownspace> Larry: Lensman: I don't remember how it came to be written, but these are old ideas. Maybe I'll sell it somewhere someday.
[15:58] #knownspace> NickE: slightly amnesiac brackets Nick brackets
[15:59] #knownspace> sean: will see if someone will sign my rather beat up first edition copy of Ringworld.
[16:00] #knownspace> Hippy: First edition? Well done!
[16:00] #knownspace> Lensman: Wikipedia has the Python sketch as "Anne Elk's Theory on Brontosauruses".
[16:00] #knownspace> Hippy: Maybe I can get my Kindle autographed?
[16:00] #knownspace> NickE: thats the one
[16:00] #knownspace> Hippy: That's the one
[16:00] #knownspace> sean: I got a kindle touch for Christmas as well.
[16:00] #knownspace> Larry: Pournelle and I will be at Liberty Con. Guests.
[16:00] #knownspace> NickE: shiny
[16:01] #knownspace> NickE: wish I could go
[16:01] #knownspace> sean: I know... thats a big reason I am going.
[16:01] EML has joined #knownspace
[16:01] #knownspace> Hippy: It was the reasonI was going. NOw it's one of two
[16:01] #knownspace> EML: Hi, guys.
[16:01] #knownspace> Lensman: I hadn't even considered that advantage of dead tree books over e-books. Kinda hard to sign an e-book!
[16:01] #knownspace> NickE: Hoping that London is sucessful in its WorldCon 2014 bid
[16:01] #knownspace> Hippy: Hi, Ed
[16:01] #knownspace> NickE: Hi Ed
[16:01] #knownspace> Lensman: Welcome, Ed!
[16:01] #knownspace> sean: had planned to go the last time you were there, Larry, but a rapidly rising Kentucky River and my parents out of town (live on the river) caused me to stay here.
[16:01] #knownspace> Larry: Hi Ed.
[16:02] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, they got my vote, Nick
[16:02] #knownspace> EML: I was just in London -- very enjoyable (except not so much for meals).
[16:02] #knownspace> NickE: Ty
[16:02] #knownspace> Hippy: Or did they? Can't remember now if I got the chance to vote for 2014
[16:02] dmac44 has joined #knownspace
[16:02] #knownspace> dmac44: hi guys
[16:03] #knownspace> Lensman: Hello to everyone just arriving.
[16:03] #knownspace> NickE: hi
[16:03] #knownspace> Hippy: Hi, dmac
[16:03] #knownspace> sean: Mark, I am thinking we probably don't need to try to fix the Java client.
[16:03] #knownspace> Larry: I had no trouble getting on line.
[16:04] #knownspace> sean: good. The flash client makes it extremely easy
[16:04] #knownspace> sean: tho Fred on his Mac had a problem
[16:05] #knownspace> NickE: eris has worked very well for me
[16:05] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, that'll teach hijm
[16:05] #knownspace> NickE: (and I always used to have trouble staying on)
[16:05] #knownspace> dmac44: Eris has worked well for me to.
[16:06] #knownspace> Lensman: I guess I'm on Eris, whatever that is. I thought I was using ChatZilla.
[16:07] #knownspace> Hippy: Im on mIRC, which is stable here though performed badly when I was in Florida last year
[16:07] #knownspace> sean: I use the linux version of X-chat
[16:07] #knownspace> sean: but I am on the same lan as the server so truly expect no problems
[16:08] #knownspace> Lensman: Eris seems to be very stable, altho unfortunately after awhile the chat record scrolls off and I can't go back and re-read it.
[16:08] #knownspace> sean: hmm, I dont know if that is a configurable option. I can check.
[16:08] #knownspace> Lensman: If that was addressed to me, Sean, then I would appreciate it sincerely.
[16:09] #knownspace> sean: so i was out earlier. lucifers anvil is going to be a modernized lucifers hammer?
[16:09] #knownspace> sean: I can look Lens. Don't know much about flash programming tho.
[16:10] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, from what Larry said I guess /Lucifer's Anvil/ will be a modern retelling of /Hammer/.
[16:11] #knownspace> Lensman: What is the chat room code for that message thing?
[16:11] #knownspace> sean: hmmm
[16:11] #knownspace> sean: i used to know
[16:12] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: slash me
[16:12] #knownspace> sean: thats right
[16:12] #knownspace> Lensman: Thanks JMJ
[16:12] #knownspace> sean: memory failure on my part
[16:13] #knownspace> sean: you'll figure it out
[16:14] #knownspace> Larry: Re Anvil: this time we'll try to stop the intruder.
[16:14] #knownspace> sean: with what. not much a space program now
[16:14] #knownspace> EML: a quiet bunch today. is everyone still hungover from new year's eve ;-)
[16:15] #knownspace> sean: I would hate to depend on the chinese
[16:15] #knownspace> Lensman: Actually, Ed, Larry came in early today, so you've missed a lot of chat.
[16:15] #knownspace> sean: Ed, I think we are still floundering for a topic
[16:15] #knownspace> dmac44: We don't have much in the way of heavy lift capability today.
[16:15] #knownspace> NickE: interesting to explore what *could* be done
[16:15] #knownspace> NickE: Michael
[16:16] #knownspace> sean: Unless there are actually baby elephants dropping on our heads, I doubt that would happen Nick
[16:16] #knownspace> EML: My next book out deals (in part) with asteroid deflection.
[16:16] #knownspace> NickE: if you had enough time
[16:16] #knownspace> NickE: :-)
[16:16] #knownspace> Lensman: Here I was biting my tongue not saying /Michael/ !
[16:17] #knownspace> sean: Ed, are your books available kindle wise?
[16:17] #knownspace> Lensman: But remember, the story that was published as /Lucifer's Hammer/ started out as /Footfall/, but with Moties instead of the Fithp.
[16:17] #knownspace> Lensman: So you see, /Michael/ fits right in.
[16:18] #knownspace> EML: sean: all of my books are available on kindle. most are on other ebook platforms, too.
[16:18] #knownspace> sean: cool.. I am flat loving the kindle
[16:19] #knownspace> EML: since you were so kind as to ask, here's the complete set of links: http://edward-m-lerner.blogspot.com/2010/06/kindling-interest.html
[16:19] #knownspace> NickE: must admit, I envy my son's, it's very near
[16:19] #knownspace> NickE: neat
[16:19] #knownspace> Hippy: Oh, good, I might snap those up
[16:19] #knownspace> sean: i got the kindle touch. didnt care about apps and stuff with the fire. just wanted to read
[16:20] #knownspace> EML: I continue to hold out for a color e-ink kindle. the Kindle Fire doesn't tempt me (much).
[16:20] #knownspace> Hippy: I still have the first one I bought. Not bad, but it uses a lot of coal and some of the valves are weakening
[16:20] #knownspace> NickE: I'd heard it wasnt as good for reading books
[16:20] #knownspace> sean: the only thing i would add to the kindle is a switchable backlight. just like a regular book, you need light to read it
[16:21] #knownspace> Hippy: You can buy clip on lights for it
[16:21] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: i got a kindle for xmas
[16:21] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: nice device
[16:21] #knownspace> sean: i have a clip light. just saying
[16:21] #knownspace> NickE: agree - I see a lady on my regular bus who has teh attachable light, but it seems a faff
[16:22] #knownspace> NickE: works OK, but kida spoils the whole "all in one" idea
[16:22] #knownspace> EML: of course a kindle would look lonely on a wall of shelves.
[16:22] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: i've got a clip light. i just use it in the light
[16:22] #knownspace> Hippy: Amaonz's point was to save battery life, but I don't know howmuch batytery power a backlight would use these days
[16:22] #knownspace> sean: they make a cover that has a light and runs off the kindle's battery... about 60 bucks tho
[16:23] #knownspace> EML: i prefer no backlight: it's easier on the eyes. that's why I won't get a Fire.
[16:24] #knownspace> NickE: the e-ink is very easy on teh eye
[16:24] #knownspace> EML: agreed, nick.
[16:24] #knownspace> Hippy: An interesting thing for doing your library would be if small printers set up to make your books in whatever style you like. You then buy the electronic copy and the printing rights, and you can have your books made up to look nice on your shelves. If your shelves arne't crammed with DVDs, that is
[16:25] #knownspace> Lensman: I haven't tried an e-reader, but from looking at YouTube demos, I think I'd prefer a Nook from Barnes & Noble.
[16:25] #knownspace> sean: my local library will loan you books straight to the kindle but the selection is still small.
[16:25] #knownspace> Hippy: So is Amazon's
[16:25] #knownspace> Hippy: Where are the Riverwoeld stories, for example? Or more Niven!!!
[16:26] #knownspace> Lensman: The optimum solution would be for there to be a backlight if you turn it on, but not if you don't.
[16:26] #knownspace> sean: that should of said library system. the local library just links to the kentucky library system
[16:26] #knownspace> NickE: I like dead tree real books, but for portability and ease of use, I could well go for a Kindle
[16:26] #knownspace> sean: thats why i said switchable backlight. ;)
[16:26] #knownspace> NickE: would make sense
[16:26] #knownspace> Lensman: The selection of Niven e-books unfortunately seems rather small. :(
[16:26] #knownspace> Hippy: The other strong thing about the Kindle is text to speech. I love that feature!!
[16:27] #knownspace> Lensman: Sean: Sorry, trying to catch up here.
[16:27] #knownspace> sean: flip it on for the inevitable insomnia nights so you dont disturb your partner
[16:27] #knownspace> NickE: it can pronounce Kzin correctly!
[16:27] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: i'm reading all these shirlock holmes books, for free on this thing
[16:27] #knownspace> sean: have not tried the text to speech
[16:27] #knownspace> Hippy: It does a good job with 'Kzin' but its Sindarin is well below par. . .
[16:28] #knownspace> NickE: heh
[16:28] #knownspace> EML: if the Kindle can pronounce kzin properly, it's smarter than my gps (which can't handle Roanake).
[16:28] #knownspace> sean: LOL
[16:28] #knownspace> NickE: but Sindarin is based on Finnish IIRC
[16:28] #knownspace> Hippy: Yes
[16:28] #knownspace> NickE: which is kind of an odd one language wie
[16:28] #knownspace> NickE: wise
[16:29] #knownspace> Hippy: It would probably do better if the Sindarin was spelt FONETIKLEE
[16:29] #knownspace> Hippy: But the main thing is you get the sense of what's being said
[16:30] #knownspace> Hippy: Audiobooks are great if you can afford them
[16:30] #knownspace> sean: I think they are best if you are doing a bunch of travelling
[16:30] #knownspace> Hippy: The guy who did 'Footfall' does a good job with the fithp's speech
[16:31] #knownspace> Lensman: Speaking of Homes, the 2nd season of "Sherlock" has started on BBC.
[16:31] #knownspace> sean: bio
[16:32] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, the Kindle can play them, too, so that's handy
[16:32] #knownspace> Hippy: So. . .this flying naked on planes. . .
[16:33] #knownspace> NickE: Sherlock has ben excellent fun so far
[16:33] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, the best thing currently on TV IMHO.
[16:33] #knownspace> NickE: agree
[16:33] #knownspace> NickE: in teh UK too
[16:33] #knownspace> Hippy: Same here
[16:33] #knownspace> Lensman: Unfortunately only 3 episodes in the 1st season. :(
[16:34] #knownspace> Lensman: That's "first series" to y'all across the Pond.
[16:34] #knownspace> Hippy: That's how they keep the quality up
[16:34] #knownspace> Lensman: Yup.
[16:34] #knownspace> Lensman: Better a few high-quality than more mediocre ones.
[16:34] #knownspace> NickE: no argument there
[16:35] #knownspace> NickE: crackingly good stuff
[16:35] #knownspace> sean: all i ever see (for the most part) on bbca is gordon ramsey
[16:35] #knownspace> NickE: twat
[16:35] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: yeah.
[16:35] #knownspace> Lensman: My sympathies.
[16:35] #knownspace> Hippy: No argument there
[16:35] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: i'm sick of cooking shows... and that gasbag shouting at people
[16:36] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, it'll be gardening shows next
[16:36] #knownspace> sean: i dont watch him... just see kitchen nightmares with some blow hard yelling at people that should not own skillets in the satellite guide
[16:36] #knownspace> Lensman: He's on BBC America; I watched a few minutes of one show to see what it was about. Gosh, this guy is almost as obnoxious as Jerry Springer.
[16:37] #knownspace> sean: yep bbca
[16:39] #knownspace> NickE: brb
[16:40] #knownspace> Hippy: If people flew naked on planes, they might start to do other things naked as well. They might have to be naked to enter a government building, or a bank, or some other security conscious areas. Like the Superbowl
[16:41] #knownspace> Hippy: A party, the Americdan Nudists Conference, gets stated up and wins a few seats in the House
[16:41] #knownspace> Hippy: IDing people is as simple as a DNA swab
[16:41] #knownspace> Lensman: Re naked in all high-security areas: Yeah. Gonna be a problem for the Superbowl, which is not in a climate-controlled building, tho. People are gonna get cold.
[16:42] #knownspace> Hippy: Then you have clothing colonies
[16:42] #knownspace> Hippy: They might move it to JUne, Lens
[16:42] #knownspace> dmac44: And those public employees doing the swabbing will be called Swabbies! :)
[16:42] #knownspace> Lensman: Maybe the stadium will issue clothing once you pass thru security. Like prison clothing?
[16:43] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah, that would work
[16:43] #knownspace> Hippy: Disposable paper suits for public events
[16:43] #knownspace> Hippy: But then, a plane could have those, too
[16:43] #knownspace> Lensman: That sounds more reasonable, Hippy.
[16:44] #knownspace> Hippy: Until someone smuggles on a flammable suit and destroys the plane, then we're back to nude passengers again
[16:44] #knownspace> Lensman: Nah, if you let the plane passengers wear disposable clothing, it takes all the fun out of the story.
[16:45] #knownspace> Hippy: Now, if you're naked and you're on the red eye
[16:45] #knownspace> NickE: heheh
[16:46] #knownspace> Hippy: So that's me out of any future WorldCons
[16:47] #knownspace> sean: Will try to make a Con period before thinking of WorldCon
[16:47] #knownspace> sean: LibertyCon will be my first.
[16:47] #knownspace> Hippy: Forget the red eye. Hostesses are pretty enogh as it is. Egad!
[16:48] #knownspace> Hippy: And so we come back to 'a plane trip just isn't worth the hassle'
[16:49] #knownspace> Lensman: Isn't that what we already have? Aren't people avoiding flying on airplanes unless they have a compelling reason? It's a cliche to say "The terrorists have won", but isn't it true?
[16:50] #knownspace> Hippy: Not here. People are flying just as much as they always have, and much more overseas now with our dollar so high
[16:50] #knownspace> Hippy: The reasosn people travel haven't changed, so if they have to go somewhere they still fly
[16:51] #knownspace> Hippy: But international flights for US people have probably reduced due to the cost of being overseas
[16:51] #knownspace> sean: The last big trip I took was a couple of years ago when I captained my parents houseboat 1400 miles down the Ohio, Tennessee-Tombigbee waterway and the itracoastal from Indiana to Fort Walton Florida. talk about a trip.
[16:52] #knownspace> Hippy: That would've been fun
[16:52] #knownspace> sean: 23 days
[16:52] #knownspace> Lensman: Well of course it's dangerous to assume a trend from anecdotes. I've seen a lot of people saying "I just prefer to drive these days, rather than take the plane", but perhaps that's only a tiny percentage.
[16:53] #knownspace> EML: I've got an errand to run before dinner, so I'll be off. Bye all.
[16:53] #knownspace> sean: later ed
[16:53] #knownspace> sean: thanks for the link
[16:53] #knownspace> NickE: TTFN Ed
[16:53] #knownspace> Lensman: Attacking transportation and communication is perhaps the most effective way to conduct a low-level war against a country. Reduce commerce far enough, you drive a society back to the feudal era.
[16:54] #knownspace> Larry: I'll break off too. Bye, all.
[16:54] #knownspace> sean: see ya, Larry
[16:54] #knownspace> Hippy: 'Bye, Larry
[16:54] #knownspace> Lensman: Bye Larry
[16:55] #knownspace> Hippy: But can you think of an exmaple of that happening, Lens?
[16:56] #knownspace> Lensman: Insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan attacking fuel trucks.
[16:56] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, yeah. . .are they feudal societies, though?
[16:56] #knownspace> Lensman: Not a very good example, it's the best I can come up with immediately.
[16:56] #knownspace> Hippy: Fair enough
[16:57] #knownspace> Hippy: In principle, though, you're right.
[16:57] #knownspace> Lensman: I'd argue that the tribalism in Arabian countries isn't even up to Feudal level.
[16:57] #knownspace> sean: afghanistan is basically feudal but iraq is a bit more urban
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[16:58] #knownspace> dmac44: sorry about that.
[16:58] #knownspace> sean: wb
[16:58] #knownspace> Lensman: I don't know that anyone has ever deliberately conducted a campaign to drive a civilization into a feudal state, but that's what happened when the Roman Empire collapsed. Travel became too dangerous, trade dropped off, local areas became isolated, and a feudal state arose.
[16:58] #knownspace> sean: Ed and Larry took off while you were gone dmac
[16:58] #knownspace> dmac44: Thanks for the FYI
[16:59] #knownspace> Lensman: Afghanistan is certainly more tribal than Iraq.
[16:59] #knownspace> Hippy: Good point, Lens
[16:59] #knownspace> dmac44: Isn't air travel back at 2000 levels?
[16:59] #knownspace> Hippy: So, maybe a terrorist organisation could manufacture something with the same effects as a Roman Empire collapse, but that would be one hell of an organisation
[17:01] #knownspace> Akiraa: well, civilization didn't end when Rome collapsed
[17:01] #knownspace> dmac44: Hippy: The terrorist organization would have to believe that they could survive such a collapse better than everyone else.
[17:01] #knownspace> Akiraa: in fact, Rome became oppressive way before it ended
[17:02] #knownspace> Akiraa: in the last days it was worse living under the Roman empire than immediately after
[17:02] #knownspace> sean: Rome collapsed as much from within through curruption as invasion
[17:02] #knownspace> Hippy: But a lot of terrorist organisations would believe that, dmac
[17:02] #knownspace> Akiraa: by the 3rd century the economy had become centralized
[17:02] #knownspace> Akiraa: the monetary system collapsed due to inflation and price controls
[17:03] #knownspace> Akiraa: then the roman state set to make a planned economy based on the material needs of the army
[17:03] #knownspace> Hippy: People do have horror stories of terrorists shutting down the Internet and thus destroying civilisation
[17:03] #knownspace> Hippy: But I doubt civlisation is that fragile
[17:03] #knownspace> dmac44: There have been recent articles on mutations to the bird flu virus (5 I think) that would make it airborne and at 60% leathality could at the very least cause serious problems.
[17:04] #knownspace> Akiraa: the deadliest diseases are those with a transmission rate of what, 1-2%?
[17:04] #knownspace> Hippy: Definitely economic problems
[17:05] #knownspace> dmac44: The black death in Europe 1000 years ago killed off about 1/2 of the population at the time I believe.
[17:05] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: ed milibands eyes are too close together
[17:05] #knownspace> Akiraa: in Europe, EU advocates are manning the fort asking for more powers
[17:06] #knownspace> dmac44: They recovered but with a high energy civilization it would be more difficult.
[17:06] #knownspace> sean: yeah dmac but think about transmission... back then walking down the street was basically swimming in garbage
[17:06] #knownspace> Akiraa: I would argue our world is decentralized enough for it not be destroyed by any willing nation
[17:06] #knownspace> Akiraa: still is :)
[17:06] #knownspace> Lensman: dmac: About 30% from what I've read, altho perhaps different authorities don't agree.
[17:07] #knownspace> Hippy: But if the virus is airborne it doen't matter where you walk
[17:07] #knownspace> Lensman: According to one analysis, that was close to causing the civilization to collapse.
[17:08] #knownspace> sean: the only thing running through my mind right now is a guy hitting a bell and yelling 'Bring out your dead!'
[17:08] #knownspace> Akiraa: we have to keep in mind that we are materially able to harness thousands of times more energy our ancestors ever could
[17:08] #knownspace> Hippy: "I can't take him. He's not dead."
[17:08] #knownspace> Hippy: "I feel happy!"
[17:08] #knownspace> Akiraa: if there's a recession, we're just going to fall from way high to a little less way high
[17:09] #knownspace> Lensman: I guess we have different definitions of a "collapse" of civilization, Akiraa. I'm going by what Jared Diamond said in /Guns, Germs & Steel: The Fates of Human Societies".
[17:09] #knownspace> Akiraa: insignificant if you compare yourself to someone living 2K years ago
[17:09] #knownspace> dmac44: But it set the stage for later growth. As I understand it, everyone who lived got richer (on average) and that capital allowed western civilization to expand more rapidly.
[17:09] #knownspace> Lensman: The Roman Empire civilzation collapsed, and was replaced by a number of smaller feudal civilizations.
[17:09] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, how woudl you define 'collapse', Lens?
[17:09] #knownspace> Akiraa: they had to endure war, famine, plague etc
[17:09] #knownspace> Akiraa: 60% of the population died in the plague of Justinian
[17:10] #knownspace> Hippy: If we could pick which 60%
[17:10] #knownspace> Akiraa: politicians and lobbyists first :)
[17:10] #knownspace> Akiraa: bankers third
[17:10] #knownspace> Hippy: Chinese and Indians second
[17:11] #knownspace> Hippy: . . .present company excepted, of course
[17:12] #knownspace> sean: Julie getting hungry... need to prep dinner
[17:13] #knownspace> sean: guess i could take the laptop in the kitchen
[17:13] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, we'd be sorry to lose you over food :)
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[17:14] #knownspace> sean_: laptop
[17:15] #knownspace> Hippy: Excellent
[17:15] #knownspace> dmac44: Using the Alfred Packer cookbook? :)
[17:16] #knownspace> sean_: nope... making garlic jalepeno tilapia from johnny carinos
[17:16] #knownspace> dmac44: probably better for you.
[17:17] #knownspace> Hippy: Sounds scrumdiddlyumptious
[17:17] #knownspace> sean_: its pretty tasty
[17:17] #knownspace> sean_: let me find a link
[17:18] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, the die-off from the Black Plague was of great benefit to the survivors. Not only did eveoryne get richer, but the labor shortage caused wages to rise signficantly.
[17:18] #knownspace> Hippy: So a 60% die off might not be a bad thing
[17:19] #knownspace> Hippy: Of course, I'm a bit too dependent on modern cilisation to last long without it
[17:19] #knownspace> sean_: this is the recipe i use. http://www.food.com/recipe/jalapeno-garlic-tilapia-by-johnny-carinos-192519
[17:20] #knownspace> Hippy: Australia could survive perfectly well with 4.4 million people. At least, it did in the 1940's
[17:20] #knownspace> dmac44: Sean: Looks good but I'm not much of a cook.
[17:20] #knownspace> Hippy: America with 128 million is about the middle 50's
[17:21] #knownspace> Hippy: I try to avoid cooking because of what happened to Gordon Ramsay
[17:21] #knownspace> dmac44: Anyone remember the book Earth Abides?
[17:22] #knownspace> sean_: I love to cook.. no interest in yelling at people who cant
[17:22] #knownspace> Hippy: The UK with 14 million people is about, what, 1910?
[17:22] #knownspace> NickE: tried to read it...got bogged down
[17:22] #knownspace> NickE: supposed to be a classic
[17:22] #knownspace> Hippy: So you can sort of guess at what level of vilisation places would be based on when their population was 40% of what it is today
[17:22] #knownspace> NickE: startded well, but kinda got slower and slower
[17:23] #knownspace> dmac44: Read it long ago. It's about a plague that kills off a large % of the population.
[17:23] #knownspace> Hippy: Oh, yes, 'Earth Abides' "Too much ecology, not enough story" as Larry once said
[17:24] #knownspace> NickE: I'd agree with that assement (I read about 60% of it oddly enough :-)
[17:24] #knownspace> Lensman: I've seen it claimed that anything much more than a 30% die-off causes a collapse. Too many vital positions go unfilled. If the guy who runs the power plant *and* his assistant die, nobody is left who knows how to operate it.
[17:25] #knownspace> Hippy: So you're reduced toa civilisation without electricity. Or, say, 1910 US
[17:26] #knownspace> Hippy: Yes, there was electricity then but not much of it. And of course, someone can come up and fix things
[17:26] #knownspace> dmac44: we are much more concentrated in cities than we were back then. Food production requires high tech today (oil, fertilizer, etc). The adjustment would be brutal.
[17:26] #knownspace> Hippy: Now, 'The Quiet Earth' is a case where civilisation would completely collapse
[17:27] #knownspace> Hippy: The initial adjustment certainly would be
[17:28] #knownspace> Hippy: And it depends on how quck the die off is
[17:29] #knownspace> Hippy: Ranging from 'The Quiet Earth' with about 1 second's die off, all the way to Clifford D Simnka's 'city' stories where it takes thousands of years
[17:30] #knownspace> Hippy: It would be interesting to carry out an experiemnt. Pick a manageable town , like Frankfort, and just take random people away from it over time (send them on a holiday) and see what breaks down and how people cope
[17:30] #knownspace> Hippy: And of course film it for TV broadcast
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[17:32] #knownspace> Hippy: It would be like that Star Trek episode
[17:32] #knownspace> Hippy: Ssh, he's here
[17:33] #knownspace> dmac44: lol
[17:33] #knownspace> Lensman: It's an old joke, but it just might work...
[17:34] #knownspace> dmac44: though I thought it was duct.
[17:34] #knownspace> Lensman: There's an argument over that.
[17:34] #knownspace> Hippy: Yes, this 'duck tape' sounds interesting
[17:35] #knownspace> Lensman: But I'm convinced by the argument that the first references were to a tape made from a type of cloth called "duck", for its ability to shed water.
[17:35] #knownspace> Lensman: The term "duct tape" came later.
[17:35] #knownspace> Hippy: Hmm. . .
[17:35] #knownspace> NickE: cheese break
[17:35] #knownspace> dmac44: I always assumed that the tape was used to hold pieces of ducting together, hence the name.
[17:35] #knownspace> NickE: no really
[17:36] #knownspace> NickE: afk
[17:36] #knownspace> Hippy: That's what I thought, too
[17:36] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, that's the usual argument.
[17:36] #knownspace> Hippy: It's one of the rare examples of convergent etymology
[17:36] #knownspace> dmac44: But if I wanted to hold two ducks together ...
[17:36] #knownspace> Lensman: But the original use of duck tape was to seal the seams on metal ammo boxes, so they could be immersed without getting the bullets wet.
[17:37] #knownspace> Lensman: Or the first widespread use, anyway.
[17:37] #knownspace> Lensman: LOL two ducks...
[17:37] #knownspace> Lensman: Or any water fowl!
[17:37] #knownspace> dmac44: I cry fowl sir!
[17:38] #knownspace> Lensman: You'll egret that remark, sir!
[17:38] #knownspace> dmac44: lol
[17:38] #knownspace> dmac44: greatly
[17:39] #knownspace> sean_: robert asprin is rolling over in his grave
[17:42] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, all this talk of bird crulety has inspired me to sieze the day, so I shall be AFK for about half an hour
[17:43] #knownspace> sean_: nobody going after geek points for the asprin reference?
[17:44] #knownspace> dmac44: I missed it.
[17:44] #knownspace> sean_: all the puns and i mentioned robert asprin rolling over in his grave
[17:45] #knownspace> dmac44: Oh!
[17:45] #knownspace> dmac44: I was barking up the wrong tree.
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[17:47] #knownspace> dmac44: asprin comes from the bark of the willow tree.
[17:48] #knownspace> sean_: robert asprin wrote much of the myth series... very pun oriented light fantasy
[17:49] #knownspace> dmac44: I have chores to do. See you all next month.
[17:53] #knownspace> Lensman: There are more famous punsters. Like Piers Anthony, in the Xanth series.
[17:54] #knownspace> Lensman: Is Aspirin known for punning outside the "Myth Adventures" novels?
[17:56] #knownspace> Lensman: Asprin... willow tree... sorry that was too obscure for me.
[17:58] #knownspace> Lensman: I greatly enjoyed the "Myth Adventures" series for several books, but I think Aspirin ran out of good material.
[17:59] #knownspace> Lensman: It's a mistake to try to turn a light-hearted fun series into something more serious. You can't build a brick house on a foundation of sand.
[17:59] #knownspace> Lensman: Stick to the grass hut.
[17:59] #knownspace> sean_: if you want puns... go for the callahan books
[17:59] #knownspace> sean_: spider robinson is really good at them
[18:00] #knownspace> Lensman: I've read three or four of 'em but I confess they never really drew me in. And I lost interest with /Callahan's Lady/. Just not to my taste at all.
[18:01] #knownspace> sean_: the lady slings the booze?
[18:01] #knownspace> Lensman: :)
[18:01] #knownspace> sean_: in itself a pun
[18:12] #knownspace> Hippy: Huh! Exactly half an hour. There's luck
[18:14] #knownspace> Hippy: So, anyway. I read one or two Callahan stories but felt much the same way Lens does
[18:18] #knownspace> Hippy: Haven't read any Asprin
[18:20] #knownspace> sean: cooking for julie complete
[18:21] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah, there you are!
[18:21] #knownspace> sean: back on main pc
[18:23] #knownspace> sean: laptop is closed up
[18:23] #knownspace> NickE: back
[18:23] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah, excellent. I wonder if Nick is back from his cheese break?
[18:24] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah, it appears he is
[18:25] #knownspace> Hippy: I haven't a thought in my head at the momemt
[18:25] #knownspace> sean: I would not mind a wine and cheese break BS'ing with Nick but it is a complicated drive.
[18:25] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: he's too far away from me.... where do you live, nick?
[18:25] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, there will be plenty of wine and cheese at LibertyCon
[18:26] #knownspace> sean: I hope to have a healthy bar budget
[18:26] #knownspace> NickE: yum
[18:27] #knownspace> NickE: Near Banbury
[18:27] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: i'm hell and gone from there
[18:27] #knownspace> sean: I am further.
[18:28] #knownspace> NickE: The Leamington meetup never materialised :-(
[18:28] #knownspace> Hippy: I think I can trump that
[18:28] #knownspace> NickE: KY, yeah, that's a ways further
[18:28] #knownspace> NickE: Or Aus
[18:28] #knownspace> NickE: :-)
[18:28] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: aa route planner says 166.5 miles
[18:28] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: 2:46 travel time
[18:28] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: i bet more like 2x that.
[18:28] #knownspace> NickE: on a good day
[18:30] #knownspace> NickE: Vesuvius Cheddar...om nom nom nom
[18:30] #knownspace> NickE: (chili cheese)
[18:31] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah. . .a name so redolent of the English countryside
[18:32] #knownspace> Hippy: Happy villagers, a benevolent squire, the volcano erupting
[18:32] #knownspace> NickE: plus French Brie, Emmental, Shropshire Blue (that's English), Cheddar (Truckle Cheese Co. possibly the nicest cheddar evah)
[18:32] #knownspace> sean: is that an exsplosively hot cheese?
[18:32] #knownspace> NickE: fairly pokey
[18:33] #knownspace> NickE: not ridiculous - you can still taste the cheddar, but warm enough
[18:33] #knownspace> Hippy: That also sounds like a Python ref
[18:33] #knownspace> NickE: no Bazuki music here
[18:34] #knownspace> NickE: and yes our cat will eat cheese :-)
[18:34] #knownspace> Hippy: Oh, and I'm one who delights in all manifestations of the Terpsichorean Muse
[18:34] #knownspace> NickE: lol
[18:35] #knownspace> Hippy: No matter how runny it is?
[18:35] #knownspace> sean: heh
[18:36] #knownspace> NickE: well,sometimes :-)
[18:37] #knownspace> NickE: "Is this a cheese shop?"
[18:37] #knownspace> NickE: "No sir"
[18:38] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, that's that sketch knackered
[18:38] #knownspace> NickE: "well thats' that sketch knackered then "
[18:38] #knownspace> sean: is this the right room for an argument?
[18:38] #knownspace> NickE: bugger!
[18:38] #knownspace> Hippy: I told you once
[18:38] #knownspace> Hippy: No, no, this is too silly, too silly!
[18:38] #knownspace> sean: no you havent
[18:39] #knownspace> Hippy: You got the quote right, though, NIck
[18:39] #knownspace> NickE: heh
[18:39] #knownspace> Hippy: I left off the 'then'
[18:39] #knownspace> NickE: indeed
[18:39] #knownspace> Hippy: Young Ones, in case people haven't seen that series
[18:40] #knownspace> NickE: but that the second time youve anticipated what I was thinking quicker than I could type it
[18:40] #knownspace> NickE: Such an 80s show. Fun tho'
[18:40] #knownspace> Hippy: I just have a good memory for sketches, I suppose
[18:40] #knownspace> Hippy: It certainly reminded me of my student days
[18:40] #knownspace> NickE: Would Rik actually *be* teh peoples oet?
[18:41] #knownspace> Hippy: and is the source for the 'Hippy' nickname
[18:41] #knownspace> NickE: ah
[18:41] #knownspace> sean: come on nick... pony up and put another mortgage on your house so you can have a beer with us in chattanooga.
[18:41] #knownspace> Hippy: I suspect he might have a teaching position, one of these poets who've lost their talent but who still teach others
[18:42] #knownspace> Hippy: Yes, it would be fun to see you
[18:42] #knownspace> NickE: I don't have a mortage! Actually quite glad of that at the moment
[18:43] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, it's time you got one. You non-mortgage types are dragging the economy down!
[18:43] #knownspace> Hippy: Of course I'm renting so can hardly talk
[18:43] #knownspace> NickE: Would love it, but plastic still groaning under weight of last geek trip abroad
[18:44] #knownspace> Hippy: Well don't get extra plastic. I made that mistake :(
[18:44] #knownspace> sean: i hear ya
[18:44] #knownspace> NickE: I cleared 2/4 at least
[18:45] #knownspace> Hippy: Well done!
[18:46] #knownspace> NickE: not too bad, but well aware of danger - the amount of credit I *could* use is scary
[18:46] #knownspace> Hippy: So was mine back in the day
[18:54] #knownspace> NickE: well that was a conversation killer
[18:55] #knownspace> NickE: too fuckin serious]
[18:55] #knownspace> sean: wasnt even looking
[18:55] #knownspace> Hippy: Sorr about that
[18:55] #knownspace> Hippy: JMJ is particularly quiet. Perhaps he's driving South as we speak
[18:56] #knownspace> NickE: I do hope to mak it back to Dragon Con at some point and maybe take a few days extra
[18:56] #knownspace> sean: julie just told me she most likely wont be able to go so if someone wants to split a hotel room let me know
[18:56] #knownspace> Hippy: I shall probably be accompanied, so that's me out
[18:57] #knownspace> NickE: I won't manage it this year and as my wife hopefully will be going back to college, probably not for another 2 or 3 years
[18:57] #knownspace> sean: dan and lyn will be together so i cant ask them
[18:59] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, I shall have to see but can get back to you
[19:00] #knownspace> Hippy: Anyway, gentlemen and bots, it approches elevenses for me, so I shall see you all next month
[19:00] #knownspace> sean: keep me updated... if your friend backs out, it will save both of us a bit more for the bar tab
[19:00] #knownspace> Hippy: Now that's good thinkin'!
[19:00] #knownspace> Hippy: So, 'bye Sean, Nick, Lens, Akiraa and JMJ
[19:01] #knownspace> Akiraa: have fun, hippy
[19:01] #knownspace> Hippy: Have a good superbowl
[19:01] #knownspace> Hippy: No mater what you're wearing
[19:01] #knownspace> NickE: night Hipy
[19:30] #knownspace> NickE: bed
[19:30] #knownspace> NickE: leasure as always folks
[19:30] #knownspace> NickE: even if I can't tye ps today
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[23:18] #knownspace> Fred: jj
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