Saturday, 2 January, 2010 - 12:00am
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[13:34] #knownspace> rimworlder: halooooooooo! is anybody home?
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[13:46] #knownspace> Jim: WTF
[13:52] #knownspace> sean: hi
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[13:59] #knownspace> NickE: HNY peeps
[13:59] #knownspace> sean: hey
[14:00] #knownspace> NickE: Hi Sean
[14:01] #knownspace> NickE: hope everyone had a peaceful New Year
[14:01] #knownspace> NickE: had a quiet night in with family
[14:02] #knownspace> NickE: and some Balvenie Doublewood of course :-)
[14:02] #knownspace> sean: i feel like i broke my arm
[14:02] #knownspace> NickE: why?
[14:02] #knownspace> sean: i broke my arm. ;)
[14:02] #knownspace> NickE: well that would exlain it
[14:03] #knownspace> NickE: I walked into that! What did you walk into?
[14:03] #knownspace> sean: yep, some patch of ice kicked my ass
[14:03] #knownspace> NickE: nasty
[14:03] #knownspace> NickE: it's been fairly lethal over here too
[14:04] #knownspace> sean: was flat on my back before i knew i had stepped on it
[14:04] #knownspace> NickE: had a few close calls
[14:04] #knownspace> NickE: ouch!
[14:04] #knownspace> sean: heard the pop when i hit
[14:04] #knownspace> NickE: eew
[14:04] #knownspace> NickE: not too bad a break I hope
[14:04] #knownspace> sean: middle of the humerous. which i did not find funny at all
[14:04] #knownspace> NickE: not that there's such a thing as a good break
[14:05] #knownspace> sean: clean break
[14:05] #knownspace> NickE: hopefully that should heal up fine then Stil a pain tho
[14:06] #knownspace> sean: in a splint. makes it a lot easier to shower than a cast
[14:06] #knownspace> NickE: My dad bust his hip (not on ice) a month or so back. Doing OK at hom now though
[14:06] #knownspace> NickE: home
[14:07] #knownspace> sean: good. that he is doing ok, not about the hip
[14:08] #knownspace> NickE: yeah, Mum was glad to have him home for Christmas
[14:08] Lensman has joined #knownspace
[14:08] #knownspace> NickE: Hi Lens
[14:08] #knownspace> Lensman: Hi Nick!
[14:09] #knownspace> Lensman: Which book? /Lucifer's Hammer/, I'm guessing? Or is it /Fallen Angels/?
[14:09] #knownspace> NickE: WRT what?
[14:10] #knownspace> NickE: Or a choice?
[14:10] #knownspace> Lensman: Today's topic.
[14:10] #knownspace> NickE: Waht like a Niven related topic? There's a novelty :-)
[14:11] #knownspace> sean: hammer
[14:11] #knownspace> NickE: Fallen Angels is probably the one I rad most recently (lik 3 years or so ago last time)
[14:11] #knownspace> Lensman: Page 32 is in the forward? That can't be right!
[14:11] #knownspace> NickE: Or Hammer :-)
[14:12] #knownspace> NickE: Oh yah, the subject. Just spotted that
[14:12] #knownspace> NickE: :-)
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[14:13] #knownspace> Lensman: Yup, I was right, it's /Lucifer's Hammer/. Page 27 of the hardcover, so maybe it *is* p. 32 in the pb.
[14:13] #knownspace> sean: it is 32 in the paperback
[14:13] #knownspace> Lensman: I apologize for trying to talk about an actual Niven related subject. :)
[14:14] #knownspace> Lensman: Holy Kdapt forbid!
[14:14] #knownspace> NickE: ah e were just comparing medical stories
[14:18] #knownspace> NickE: so (not having mine to hand this second) the preaching accusation was directed at L and J wrt Hammer by someone?
[14:20] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, no e-mail from Larry yet so hopefully we'll see him today.
[14:20] #knownspace> sean: doesnt say by who
[14:20] #knownspace> Lensman: WRT nuclear power in /Hammer/.
[14:21] #knownspace> Lensman: I presume by various reviewers of the book.
[14:21] #knownspace> NickE: well obviously I guess
[14:21] #knownspace> NickE: though i'd dispute it being a pro nuke manifesto
[14:23] #knownspace> sean: well, harvey goes nuts on a female eco-freak in it about nuke power
[14:23] #knownspace> Lensman: I imagine if I was anti nuclear power, it would come across as "preaching". But since I'm pro, he's preaching to the converted here.
[14:23] #knownspace> NickE: more taking something that was a logical proposition and including it in a damn good story. I'm sure that Larry and Jerry may have had an "agenda", but surely a good science fiction novel has teh ability to educate as well as entertain
[14:24] #knownspace> NickE: well, yeah, preaching to teh choir here anyway :-)
[14:24] #knownspace> sean: very true
[14:26] #knownspace> Lensman: Well I have to agree it's preaching. At the end of the book, the protagonists essentially have to decide whether to risk everything to preserve the nuclear plant and thus remain civilized, or else stick to their own enclave and regress to medievalism.
[14:27] #knownspace> sean: my decision would of been the same as their's
[14:27] #knownspace> NickE: aye
[14:27] #knownspace> NickE: brb
[14:28] #knownspace> Lensman: Where I quibble is over "preaching" being a negative thing. Some things *need* to be preached about! Finagle help us, there are rabid anti-nuclear folks out there still. I can only think that they've become conditioned to react to the words "nuclear" or "radiation" with a knee-jerk fear. It's like they won't even consider that nuclear power could be the solution to our global warming...
[14:28] #knownspace> Lensman: ...problems, and our dependence on foreign oil.
[14:29] #knownspace> Lensman: And now *I* need to get off the soap box.
[14:30] #knownspace> sean: face it about foreign oil... if we discovered and drilled huge new oil fields, we would still buy foreign oil cuz it is cheaper. :)
[14:31] #knownspace> Lensman: At $100 barrel, I don't think it's cheaper.
[14:32] #knownspace> Lensman: However, at least some of that is speculation in oil futures artificially inflating the cost, not the actual cost.
[14:32] #knownspace> sean: try 79 right now. but our own would cost probably 150 for 10 years + until the infrastructure was in place and paid for.
[14:33] #knownspace> Akiraa: hi
[14:33] #knownspace> sean: hi akirra
[14:33] #knownspace> Akiraa: more people on than usual :)
[14:33] #knownspace> Lensman: I don't think so. We used to get the vast majority of oil from domestic sources. I don't think it would take that much to switch back.
[14:33] #knownspace> sean: 1st sat chat today
[14:34] #knownspace> Jim: happy new year
[14:34] #knownspace> Lensman: For instance, putting in the Alaska oil pipeline didn't push oil above $100 per barrel.
[14:34] #knownspace> sean: we are going to get it from the cheapest place, so that is what we do.
[14:35] #knownspace> sean: if (name your country) started selling it for 20 bucks a barrel, that is what we would buy. :)
[14:35] #knownspace> Lensman: Akiraa, welcome to the regular monthly Niven chat!
[14:36] #knownspace> Akiraa: is larry niven on, btw?
[14:36] #knownspace> Jim: nope
[14:37] #knownspace> sean: he has been logging in as Larry lately
[14:37] #knownspace> Jim: Akiraa, what is your real name?
[14:37] #knownspace> nedry: I'm waiting for Destroyer of Worlds to turn up, so I can read that.
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[14:37] #knownspace> sean: he used to log in as Fifthp
[14:38] #knownspace> Akiraa: Jim: my name is adrian
[14:38] #knownspace> sean: i enjoyed Destroyer but liked Juggler more
[14:38] #knownspace> Jim: nedry, are you waiting for the MMPB of DOW?
[14:38] #knownspace> Akiraa: I'm a computer science undergrad working on system admin and some telephony
[14:39] #knownspace> Jim: Akiraa, are you from Oz?
[14:39] #knownspace> Akiraa: Romania ^^
[14:39] #knownspace> Lensman: Hey Mark! What do you mean "turn up"?
[14:40] #knownspace> Akiraa: I'm quite new to niven's works, only having read Ringworld 1,2,3 and half of 4
[14:40] #knownspace> nedry: heh
[14:40] #knownspace> sean: the worlds books are being released right before my BD so i have been blessed with 3 hardbacks
[14:40] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, if you managed to get all the way thru 3 then 4 should be an easy and fun read!
[14:40] #knownspace> nedry: I have to go get my wife from work in a minute. it's been snowing... again. might not be fun.
[14:41] #knownspace> nedry: like a skating rink
[14:41] #knownspace> sean: don't break an arm, mark
[14:41] #knownspace> sean: i am typing 1 fingered for the next 2 months do due an unseen patch of ice
[14:41] #knownspace> CCulpepper: ow
[14:42] #knownspace> Lensman: Mark, I don't like the quote that the "Nessus" page starts with, on the LarryNiven.org site. What do you think about changing that? Frankly I'd like to dump the whole page and start fresh. Don't like the illustration either.
[14:42] #knownspace> Akiraa: Say, has anyone done some work on mapping the ringworld?
[14:43] #knownspace> Lensman: Ouch! Hope you find an autodoc soon, Sean.
[14:43] #knownspace> nedry: lemme look
[14:43] #knownspace> nedry: i agree. i never liked that picture...
[14:44] #knownspace> Lensman: Akiraa: You'll find a map of part of Ringworld in the /Companion/ to the Ringworld RPG. Pretty sure you can see a copy of that at the larryniven.org site, altho it may not be in sufficient detail to read everything on it.
[14:44] #knownspace> nedry: it used to be at the bottom of every puppeteer page
[14:44] #knownspace> sean: there is a ringworld add on to a freeware space sim that i cant remember the name of... do you, mark?
[14:45] #knownspace> sean: i didn't have the video horsepower to look at it at the time it was sent to us
[14:45] #knownspace> Akiraa: It would be impossible to map Ringworld with current computer storrage possibilities, but something may be possible with some clever procedural mapping
[14:45] #knownspace> Lensman: As far as mapping the entire Ringworld, forget it. It's what, a million earths in surface area?
[14:46] #knownspace> Akiraa: yeah, I have the celestia addon
[14:46] #knownspace> sean: 3 million earths i think
[14:46] #knownspace> CCulpepper: 300 m. I believe
[14:46] #knownspace> NickE: back
[14:46] #knownspace> CCulpepper: or 3Yes it is 3 million.
[14:46] #knownspace> NickE: yup
[14:47] #knownspace> NickE: big anyway :-)
[14:47] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Could you get away with only mapping the important parts?
[14:48] #knownspace> sean: celestia was the space sim i think
[14:48] #knownspace> NickE: The RWC map covers the small area dalt with in the first 2 books
[14:48] #knownspace> Lensman: If by "important parts" you mean the scene of the action of the books... then like I said, there's a map in the Ringworld RPG /Companion/.
[14:49] #knownspace> Akiraa: http://www.google.com/search?rls=en&hs=lT&q=2%2Api%2A1au%2A10%5E6+%2F+%2... 1.843m Earth surfaces
[14:49] #knownspace> CCulpepper: I mean just skip parts like the oceans that you could just til;e over.
[14:49] #knownspace> NickE: In RW, the point is mde that the "exploration" took place basically between 2 cosey situated meteor holes
[14:49] #knownspace> Akiraa: (2 * pi * (1 au) * (10^6)) / (510 * (10^6) km) = 1 843 043.05
[14:49] #knownspace> Lensman: There's no map in RC. There's one in RE. The RPG map covers the same area in more detail, and supposedly with a better fit to the description in the bookx.
[14:50] #knownspace> sean: yep, nick. 1/5th of the width
[14:51] #knownspace> Lensman: You could use a fractal map generation program to map all the Ringworld if you wanted to. But it would be pointless, and it wouldn't have any relation to anything in the books.
[14:51] #knownspace> NickE: It certainly matches better for game purposes
[14:51] #knownspace> NickE: (The RWC map)
[14:53] #knownspace> Lensman: There is no map in the hardcover edition of RWC. Are you saying there is one in the pb edition?
[14:53] #knownspace> NickE: sorry, RW Companon, not Children
[14:53] #knownspace> NickE: epic accronym fail
[14:54] #knownspace> NickE: suggest RWCo and RWCh for this discussion :-)
[14:55] #knownspace> Lensman: Oh, sorry!
[14:55] #knownspace> Akiraa: ah, 1m miles width, that makes it 3 million Earth surfaces
[14:55] #knownspace> NickE: yes
[14:55] #knownspace> CCulpepper: But why would the protectors use imperialistic earth measurements?
[14:56] #knownspace> Jim: cause Larry does not like the metric system
[14:56] #knownspace> NickE: they wouldn't, the book was written by an American in 1970
[14:56] #knownspace> CCulpepper: o, I see.
[14:56] #knownspace> NickE: NASA used imperial for a loong time
[14:57] #knownspace> Lensman: A loose sheet in the RPG box has a 1/2 inch band running across the width of the page. Next to that is a paragraph entitled "WHERE IS THE MAP OF RINGWORLD?"
[14:57] #knownspace> Jim: In Known Space, the metric system was replaced by a UN system that used miles, feet, pounds, etc.,
[14:57] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Well government thinks that all of thier systems are best....
[14:57] #knownspace> NickE: heh
[14:58] #knownspace> Akiraa: Also, why polar projections for redrawn worlds? Elliptical projections would have had much less distortion (at least in the Southern hemisphere)
[14:58] #knownspace> NickE: yes that loose sheet is a nic touch to get you to think about actual scale
[14:58] #knownspace> Lensman: "The band below is one-half-inch wide, a width representing in scale approximately 1 million miles. The circumference of the Ring to this scale is nearly 25 feet (the actual circumference is some 597,000,000 miles.) A 25-foot tape measure bent round upon itself will give the players a very good idea of the actual proportions (and awesome size) of the Ringworld."
[14:59] #knownspace> Jim: In DOW, there is a scene where Sigmund has to convert units from the SI system that was being used by the captive humans to the UN system (US Customary system) that he was used to using.
[14:59] #knownspace> Lensman: Akiraa: No matter what you do, you're going to have to distort the maps in some manner. And it appears the Maps were not all distorted in the same fashion, either.
[15:00] #knownspace> CCulpepper: DOW?
[15:00] #knownspace> Lensman: Destroyer of Worlds
[15:00] #knownspace> CCulpepper: o I see.
[15:00] #knownspace> Jim: yes, do you want me to find the page number?
[15:00] #knownspace> Jim: after the chat, of course
[15:01] #knownspace> Lensman: Akiraa: I think the best interpretation is that for planets with continents, the continents are represented as close to their real shapes as possible, with the seas between distorted. Obviously you can't reproduce the wraparound effect of a ball world.
[15:01] #knownspace> Jim: hello
[15:02] #knownspace> Lensman: Hi Jim. No, we want you to do it in real time. You *do* have an electronic searchable copy, don't you? ;)
[15:02] #knownspace> NickE: I don't recall that quote
[15:02] #knownspace> Akiraa: Lensman: stepping surfaces disks on the edges :)
[15:03] #knownspace> NickE: but I'm sure it's there
[15:03] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Or a stepping ring..
[15:03] #knownspace> Akiraa: could even have a gigantic projection screen to create the illusion of a wraparound world
[15:03] #knownspace> CCulpepper: The kzin would kill that fast.
[15:04] #knownspace> Lensman: Akiraa: LOL! Well, if the Ringworld Engineers had Puppeteer tech, things would be rather different. I'm reminded of the comment about Star Trek: "The question is, if you have replicators then why do you *need* starships?"
[15:04] #knownspace> Lensman: I vaguely recall what Jim is referring to, but I didn't find it significant enuff to put in my notes for JOW.
[15:04] #knownspace> CCulpepper: If the Engineers had puppeteer tech. Why would they need to build a ringworld?
[15:05] #knownspace> Akiraa: The Pak were contemporary with the Puppeteers, at least for a million years, not?
[15:05] #knownspace> NickE: they wouldn't
[15:05] #knownspace> Akiraa: at their heyday
[15:06] #knownspace> NickE: It seems very liely that the Pupetteers first encounter with Pak was as dscribed in DOW
[15:06] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, if Proserpina's tale is to be believed, the Pak had space travel a million years ago. Altho never FTL. Obviously the Outsiders will never sell hyperdrive to the Pak, because the Pak would attack them before negotiations were possible.
[15:06] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Makes sense.
[15:07] #knownspace> Akiraa: What did the Outsiders actually buy ? What wasn't very clear.
[15:07] #knownspace> Lensman: CCul: Exactly, if the Ringworld Engineers had Puppeteer tech, they wouldn't build a Ringworld.
[15:07] #knownspace> Akiraa: For that matter, what would Puppeteers do with Earth currency?
[15:08] #knownspace> Jim: the same thing China does with US currency
[15:08] #knownspace> Lensman: Akiraa: The Puppeteers use Earth currency to manipulate human policy and economics.
[15:08] #knownspace> CCulpepper: The outsiders bought cold frozen moons for bases i believe.
[15:08] #knownspace> SeanS: the outsiders lease nereid. didn't buy it.
[15:09] #knownspace> Lensman: Right, the Outsiders rent and buy real estate in clients' systems. Why a species evolved for the microgravity of outer space like to spend time on small icy moons is a mystery, but they do. Maybe just a change of scenery.
[15:09] #knownspace> Lensman: Gotta go. Nice chatting with y'all, and say "Hi" to Larry if he shows up!
[15:10] #knownspace> Jim: bye lensman
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[15:11] #knownspace> SeanS: l8r, lensman
[15:11] #knownspace> Akiraa: Lensman: If continents are to be represented as real as possible, the best fitting projection is something like the dymaxion (an fitted icosahedron unfolded onto a flat surface)
[15:12] #knownspace> Lensman: Akiraa: Yes, Dymaxian, exactly.
[15:12] #knownspace> Akiraa: depending on the fitting, it may be possible to lay most of the dry land on a nearly distortion-free projection
[15:13] #knownspace> Lensman: If a Kzin attacks a Puppeteer, he soon finds himself financially ruined. Consider the implications of that statement! Paul Chafe says the Kzinti don't use money. Paul is wrong.
[15:13] #knownspace> Lensman: Really, got to go.
[15:13] #knownspace> CCulpepper[1]: Bye
[15:13] #knownspace> Jim: I think that Louis Wu describes Ringworld as having Mercator maps of the planets
[15:13] #knownspace> Akiraa: \o
[15:14] #knownspace> Akiraa: I remember reading polar projection with the Southern hemisphere encircling the outside
[15:14] #knownspace> SeanS: south polar projections. don't think he said what type of projection
[15:14] #knownspace> NickE: thats what I recal
[15:14] #knownspace> Akiraa: north polar projection with the south pole on the exterior circle
[15:14] #knownspace> NickE: or at least that's teh assumption in the RPG as I remember
[15:17] #knownspace> Akiraa: "The Map was a polar projection; the south pole was spread out around the rim" -- from Ringworld Engineers
[15:17] #knownspace> NickE: Never been really clear on why Pak, violent xenophobes went to all that bother
[15:17] #knownspace> NickE: seems very wasteful of resources
[15:18] #knownspace> CCulpepper[1]: That is a mystery.
[15:19] #knownspace> NickE: I get the idea, it makes for some great WOW factor and story teling, but the actul reasons seem very unclear
[15:19] #knownspace> Akiraa: "Half a million miles from the map of Earth was another cluster. As with the Earth map, the oceans were distorted by
[15:19] #knownspace> Akiraa: the polar projection, but the continents were not"
[15:19] #knownspace> Akiraa: ah, I see
[15:19] Larry has joined #knownspace
[15:19] #knownspace> SeanS: hi Larry
[15:19] #knownspace> Akiraa: not a standard projection
[15:19] #knownspace> NickE: Hi Larry
[15:19] #knownspace> Jim: hi Larry
[15:20] #knownspace> CCulpepper[1]: Hi
[15:20] #knownspace> NickE: discussion is of projections of the planetary maps in teh Great Oceans
[15:20] #knownspace> Larry: Hi and Happy New Year. Getting in was difficult. I've installed Java.
[15:21] #knownspace> Akiraa: probably easier to have someone install you a chat client ^^
[15:21] #knownspace> NickE: HNY to you too. The applet works
[15:21] #knownspace> SeanS: so using the java client on larryniven.org?
[15:21] #knownspace> Larry: No, I didn't use standard projections. I needed gigantic islands. For Earth, North polar projection. (South would have worked; land would have been less clustered.)
[15:21] #knownspace> Akiraa: with nickserv authentication
[15:22] #knownspace> NickE: Ah, that's what Akiraa said
[15:22] #knownspace> Larry: Yeah, I'm here as a Java client--I think.
[15:23] #knownspace> NickE: So, Why the maps? Why would the Pak go to all that effort? (If this was covered, I've forgotten :-)
[15:23] #knownspace> SeanS: as long as it works. if you have flash installed, you can type irc.larryniven.org into any browser and get in.
[15:24] #knownspace> NickE: I mean, rounding up a base poulation of proto kzinti can't have been easy!
[15:24] #knownspace> NickE: population
[15:25] #knownspace> Akiraa: I think the kzinti were introduced to see if they posed a threat to the breeders
[15:25] #knownspace> Akiraa: or how large a threat
[15:25] #knownspace> Jim: evolution experiment
[15:25] #knownspace> NickE: I think a Protector would be able to figure that out without having to buld a worl map
[15:25] #knownspace> SeanS: yeah... i doubt Pak would of developed weapons with a "stun" function
[15:26] #knownspace> CCulpepper[1]: Well thier normal weapons for breeders might KO the kzinti.
[15:26] #knownspace> Jim: SeanS: yes they would, the stun setting would be used on breeders
[15:26] #knownspace> NickE: Possibly an experiment - the ocean isolation is a great idea, but would Pak actually bother with something like that?
[15:26] #knownspace> Larry: I dunno why they did it. Some protector's hobby, no doubt. A powerful protector's projects could last ten thousand years--and get interrupted at random.
[15:27] #knownspace> NickE: Any threat to any Protectors bloodline would surely guarantee extermination of any experiment
[15:27] #knownspace> SeanS: ok,Jim, I can buy that.
[15:27] #knownspace> Akiraa: What's strange is that the kzin can feed on human flesh or Earth ecology animals in general. Being an independently evolved carbon life form, it would be very unlikely they'd develop the same kinds of amino acids...
[15:28] #knownspace> NickE: Except that we all evolved from Slaver food yeast
[15:28] #knownspace> CCulpepper[1]: Thats what it would take tens of thousands of years, only to bring them all that way, without FTL.
[15:28] #knownspace> NickE: stuff like AA coding gets conserved very well
[15:28] #knownspace> NickE: (like copletely)
[15:28] #knownspace> NickE: completely)
[15:30] #knownspace> NickE: Additional AAs may be used, but generally I can buy kzinti being able to digest long pig
[15:30] #knownspace> CCulpepper[1]: AAs?
[15:31] #knownspace> Jim: amino acids
[15:31] #knownspace> NickE: amino acids (sorry, biologist)
[15:31] #knownspace> CCulpepper[1]: oh. I see.
[15:32] #knownspace> Akiraa: also, a 50-50 chance of evolving amino acids of the opposite chirality (orientation)
[15:32] #knownspace> NickE: there are very few variants in Earth based amino acids
[15:32] #knownspace> Larry: I needed an enemy alien. SURE it can eat human flesh.
[15:33] #knownspace> NickE: except slaver food yeast clearly used laevo form same as us
[15:33] #knownspace> NickE: The yeast explanation provides that
[15:33] #knownspace> Akiraa: "<Larry> I needed an enemy alien. SURE it can eat human flesh. " -- that's quote material :)
[15:34] #knownspace> NickE: heh
[15:34] #knownspace> Larry: Once upon a time I found this in the letter column of Analog: a guy accused me of lack of imagination because the nerves cross in a Motie.
[15:34] #knownspace> NickE: being eaten is a great primal fear to tap into for bad guys to have over good guys
[15:34] #knownspace> Jim: the nerves cross in humans
[15:35] #knownspace> Larry: This is a bum rap. I decided that either it's a fifty-fifty shot, or there's a reason for the crossing even if we don't know it.
[15:35] #knownspace> SeanS: you came up with an assymetrical alien race that ,makes sense and had no imagination. right :)
[15:35] #knownspace> NickE: 'xact;y
[15:36] #knownspace> SeanS: just started re-reading mote ,btw. lenin and mccarther just jumped to the mote.
[15:36] #knownspace> Larry: Nerves that don't cross (i. e. left brain covers left body) would restrict communication, maybe cripple the critter.
[15:36] #knownspace> Akiraa: How do you keep a giant fictional universe consistent, Larry? There are stitchmarks, but it's not bad, really :)
[15:37] #knownspace> NickE: great thing about biology is that there's usua;ly weirdr shit going on in reality than most folk can dream up
[15:37] #knownspace> Larry: What I'm getting at: sometimes I really did think it through...and sometimes I didn't. Here is the only place you can find out.
[15:37] #knownspace> NickE: Grendels frex
[15:37] #knownspace> NickE: based on reality
[15:38] #knownspace> NickE: well teh life cycle bit anyway
[15:38] #knownspace> Larry: I try for consistency. These days I leave it to Ed Lerner, who is good at resolving the differences. And I can always dip into another universe.
[15:38] #knownspace> NickE: handy that :-)
[15:39] #knownspace> Jim: Larry, will there be more Known Space stories after the series with Ed Lerner is completed?
[15:39] #knownspace> Larry: I've met the guy who found the cannibalistic frogs. He had a really hard job getting anyone to believe him. I guess it does sound like an urban myth.
[15:40] #knownspace> NickE: KS is pretty good (excllent) at being consistent in feel and general even if minor things inevitably crop up (unavoidable given the breadth of the universe)
[15:40] #knownspace> Akiraa: it should be common knowledge that many species are already cannibalistic
[15:40] #knownspace> Larry: I don't foresee any Known Space stories after THE FATE OF WORLDS. Then again, the Known Space stories have often surprised me.
[15:40] #knownspace> NickE: But not to teh degree shown by Grendels
[15:41] #knownspace> CCulpepper[1]: What is to stop cannabalism except for intelligence and herbavore eating habits?
[15:41] #knownspace> NickE: Except of course that their cckle is based on a genuine example
[15:42] #knownspace> Larry: The breadth of Poul Anderson's universe is so great that he could usually avoid inconsistencies. Even so: only part of the galaxy.
[15:42] #knownspace> NickE: I'm glad teh KS stories have kept surprising us too
[15:43] #knownspace> NickE: So 5 books in teh Worlds set then?
[15:43] #knownspace> NickE: Betrayer and then Fate makes 5
[15:44] #knownspace> NickE: (loved Destroyer btw)
[15:44] #knownspace> Larry: Yes, Nick, it'll be 5. We've already completed "Betrayer of Worlds",
[15:44] #knownspace> CCulpepper[1]: Is destroyer available on paperback?
[15:44] #knownspace> NickE: not yet I think?
[15:45] #knownspace> NickE: WooHoo!
[15:45] #knownspace> Larry: My guess: "Destroyer" won't be paperback for many months.
[15:45] #knownspace> CCulpepper[1]: I see, I will only buy paper back untill i can find a job..
[15:45] #knownspace> NickE: Took great pleasure in buying my bother the first 3 for hristmas
[15:45] #knownspace> NickE: Christmas
[15:46] #knownspace> Larry: Nick: you don't have to keep correcting spelling. We can extrapolate.
[15:46] #knownspace> CCulpepper[1]: I think i might use christmas money to buy used books.
[15:47] #knownspace> NickE: TBH, the gap between hardback and paperback isn't that great these days, but I appreciate the shoestring budget siuation
[15:47] #knownspace> NickE: good, my typing tends to suck in chats :-)
[15:48] #knownspace> Akiraa: Is Ringworld RPG available anywhere? Not sure if it's even compatible with DOS emulation...
[15:49] #knownspace> NickE: Ebay is your best bet. It's been out of production a looong time
[15:49] #knownspace> CCulpepper[1]: Tro gog.com, they stock old games.
[15:49] #knownspace> NickE: Or do you mean the computer games?
[15:49] #knownspace> Akiraa: ah, not a computer game, just a tabletop RPG
[15:50] #knownspace> NickE: I treasure my (bought at the time of publication - 1984) Chaosium RW RPG
[15:50] #knownspace> NickE: Hard to find, but full of great stuff
[15:51] #knownspace> NickE: I even have the Louis Wu and His Motley Crew module published in Different Worlds 37
[15:51] #knownspace> NickE: (have the issue)
[15:51] #knownspace> NickE: and the RWCo supplement
[15:52] #knownspace> NickE: Good game back in the days I used to play
[15:52] #knownspace> SeanS: i uses to have the chaosium game. it died with all my other stuff in '98
[15:53] #knownspace> NickE: Oh crap yeah. Did Carol lose hers as well in her fire?
[15:53] #knownspace> SeanS: don't know
[15:53] #knownspace> NickE: nasty
[15:54] #knownspace> Larry: fires are bad.
[15:54] #knownspace> NickE: Bigtme
[15:54] #knownspace> NickE: know you've had close calls where you live
[15:55] #knownspace> Akiraa: Ringworld is ripe for a big Hollywood film, as well as several modern games; look at Halo :)
[15:55] #knownspace> CCulpepper[1]: But they would fail miserably.
[15:55] #knownspace> NickE: Look at Avatar. the Tech is up to doing it now
[15:56] #knownspace> NickE: Oh no real doubt about that. Hollyweird being the way it is
[15:56] #knownspace> NickE: <sigh>
[15:56] #knownspace> CCulpepper[1]: Avatar was amazing... They could do it but all of the Halo fans would think its a rip off of thier series.
[15:56] #knownspace> SeanS: i don't want to see what hollywood would do to ringworld. look what they did to hitchhiker.
[15:56] #knownspace> NickE: Yep. There was a great cartoon that took that idea that was posted on the list waaay back
[15:57] #knownspace> NickE: Oh ghod yes
[15:57] #knownspace> Akiraa: Halo, but bigger and with furry sex :D
[15:57] #knownspace> NickE: Just been watching the old BBC TV version, Soooo much better even with clunky FX
[15:57] #knownspace> NickE: eeewww
[15:58] #knownspace> Larry: I liked the Hitchhiker movie. Folk, can you remember how many variants there were by the primary authors? Many!
[15:58] #knownspace> NickE: Ohtotally
[15:59] #knownspace> NickE: Douglas could never stop tinkering with the story :-)
[15:59] #knownspace> SeanS: true
[15:59] #knownspace> CCulpepper[1]: I prefer the old show as well. My dad got that and a whole bunch of other stuff on VHS.
[15:59] #knownspace> NickE: Radio, book, vinyl album, stageplay, TV, film...
[16:00] #knownspace> Larry: exactly. "Hitchhiker" has become iconic: everybody's property. (Not a legal opinion.)
[16:00] #knownspace> CCulpepper[1]: Wait i take that back! The books were the best.
[16:00] #knownspace> NickE: The radio version was always my fav, mainly as I heard it at original broadcast
[16:01] #knownspace> NickE: Oh agreed. It's like Python in that regard - everyone can quote great chunks :-)
[16:01] #knownspace> NickE: My kids are no exception I'm happy to say :-)
[16:02] EML has joined #knownspace
[16:02] #knownspace> NickE: Hi Ed
[16:02] #knownspace> EML: Hi, all. Happy New year.
[16:03] #knownspace> NickE: Woah, full house!
[16:03] #knownspace> NickE: Shiny!
[16:03] #knownspace> Larry: Happy New Year, Ed. There has been Known Space discussion.
[16:03] CCulpepper has joined #knownspace
[16:03] #knownspace> NickE: wb
[16:03] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Yes. Dial up failed...
[16:03] #knownspace> NickE: i remember that
[16:04] #knownspace> EML: A KS discussion? This seems like the place :-)
[16:04] #knownspace> NickE: sucked then
[16:04] #knownspace> NickE: Maps, amino acids etc
[16:05] #knownspace> EML: I'll bite. what do maps and amino acids have to do with each other (and what progression is implied by the "etc.") ?
[16:06] #knownspace> NickE: heh
[16:07] #knownspace> NickE: RW maps posited by Jim as an evolution experiment. Some discussion about why kzin could eat human meat - amino acid sequences - have to be same as all evolved from Slaver food yeast#
[16:08] Jim has joined #knownspace
[16:08] #knownspace> NickE: All laevo form
[16:08] #knownspace> NickE: eb Jim
[16:08] #knownspace> EML: has there been any discussion of Destroyer, or is it too soon for that?
[16:08] #knownspace> NickE: wb
[16:08] #knownspace> NickE: Some folk have yet to read it. But it was very enjoyable
[16:09] #knownspace> EML: Always good to hear, Nick.
[16:09] #knownspace> Jim: EML, was there a scene in DOW where SI units had to be converted to UN units?
[16:09] #knownspace> NickE: Had several "oh shit that was cool!" moments
[16:10] #knownspace> NickE: (don't want to spoil tho)
[16:11] #knownspace> NickE: a certain escape strategy that exploited certain previously established tech details was particularly neat
[16:11] #knownspace> EML: Jim: the practice (established in earlier books of the series) is that New Terrans use English units and any other humans use metric.
[16:11] #knownspace> NickE: (hope that didn't give too much away)
[16:12] #knownspace> NickE: Seems reasonable
[16:12] #knownspace> EML: Nick: it's a rare project of mine in which someone *doesn't* escape from something.
[16:12] #knownspace> NickE: hehe
[16:14] #knownspace> NickE: The Q came up as to why RW stats were in imperial units. (Poinetd out that Larry wrote this in 1970 and the US still uses miles etc outside of scinece labs)
[16:14] #knownspace> NickE: mostly
[16:15] #knownspace> NickE: I us metric all day as a scientist, but firmly think of walking/driving distance in miles and my height in feet and inches
[16:15] #knownspace> EML: the Q as in STNG?
[16:15] #knownspace> NickE: sorry, Question
[16:15] #knownspace> NickE: me and my bloody shorthand
[16:16] #knownspace> EML: Or me and my occasional literalness.
[16:16] #knownspace> NickE: which with my typing non skill is silly really :-)
[16:16] #knownspace> Larry: What I figured, early in Known Space, was that some pocket widget would translate English, metric, and other measurements without anybody worrying about it much. I've held to that.
[16:17] #knownspace> NickE: And there must be any number of apps for iPhones that do exactly that
[16:17] #knownspace> EML: an early iPhone, methinks :-)
[16:17] #knownspace> NickE: or any modrn phone
[16:17] #knownspace> NickE: so, prophetic again :-)
[16:18] #knownspace> EML: I've cracked the pattern, Nick. There's a serious vowel rationing where you live. :-)
[16:18] #knownspace> CCulpepper: lol
[16:19] #knownspace> EML: CCulpepper -- is that as in Culpeper, VA?
[16:19] #knownspace> NickE: I don't have a problem with the stories picking one set of units and sticking with them - easier to write and easier to read
[16:19] #knownspace> NickE: yu thnk so?
[16:19] #knownspace> EML: lol
[16:19] #knownspace> Larry: it doesn't have to be an advanced tricorder or cellphone. The widget could be tattooed on the back of a hand. Ed triggered to that: see "Juggler".
[16:19] #knownspace> CCulpepper: No, i have 2 Ps, But the name does come from around there, I think mine is swedish in origin.
[16:19] #knownspace> Jim: Context: there was a discussion between Ronn, myself, and some others on the e-mail list about geologists and others not using SI units. I still think that geologists should be forced to use SI units.
[16:19] #knownspace> NickE: (hate text speak)
[16:20] #knownspace> NickE: And of course the implant widget was established in Cloak of Anarchy (the watch)
[16:21] #knownspace> NickE: so well within continuity for KS
[16:21] #knownspace> NickE: brb
[16:22] #knownspace> EML: a wayward synapse just fired. there was a story called "The Widget, the Wadget, and Boff." I can't rememeber what it's about or who wrote it.
[16:23] #knownspace> NickE: doesnt ring a bell
[16:23] #knownspace> Jim: Theodore Sturgeon
[16:23] #knownspace> NickE: ah
[16:24] #knownspace> NickE: nice catch
[16:24] #knownspace> Larry: "The Widget, the Wadget, and Boff" was by Theodore Sturgeon. Aliens monitoring a boardinghouse with intent to judge humanity.
[16:24] #knownspace> EML: Ah, yes.
[16:25] #knownspace> NickE: no chocolate covered manholes then :-)
[16:25] #knownspace> Larry: Only the baby could see them.
[16:25] #knownspace> EML: That synapse can now go back to sleep :-)
[16:26] #knownspace> Jim: There were some episodes of the Flintstones where there was an alien only the men and the babies could see.
[16:27] #knownspace> Jim: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Gazoo
[16:28] #knownspace> EML: Wikipedia just goes to show how many people have WAY too much time on their hands ...
[16:28] #knownspace> NickE: heh
[16:29] #knownspace> NickE: says he who does podcasts in what free time he has
[16:30] #knownspace> NickE: I gues some folk do wikipedia as a hobby
[16:30] #knownspace> EML: I'm afraid to learn Facebook or twitter because of the time sinks they would be.
[16:30] #knownspace> EML: Blogging is time-consumign enough.
[16:31] #knownspace> Larry: I too fear Facebook and Twitter. Should use Wiki more.
[16:31] #knownspace> NickE: agreed. I do have a Facebook account, but only check once a fortnight and do not rely on it at all
[16:31] #knownspace> Jim: It is said that celebrities hire people to twitter for them.
[16:31] #knownspace> NickE: he'll be back :-)
[16:31] #knownspace> EML: Those people are called Twits.
[16:32] #knownspace> NickE: I dislike the idea of Twitter - mainly for the time sink potential
[16:32] #knownspace> EML: Larry: have you ever considered blogging?
[16:32] #knownspace> NickE: and a lot of them are
[16:33] #knownspace> Jim: I know one actor who basically quit blogging regularly and started Twitter because it was less of a time sink.
[16:33] #knownspace> NickE: We're setting up a blog for our podcast (The Signal) which will be my first foray
[16:33] #knownspace> NickE: Don't know if I will do much with it, but a lot of folk on our crew both blog and Twitter
[16:34] #knownspace> EML: blog + twitter = blither?
[16:34] CCulpepper has joined #knownspace
[16:34] #knownspace> NickE: wb
[16:34] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Thanks.
[16:34] #knownspace> Jim: blog + twitter = bitter
[16:34] #knownspace> Larry: I fear blogging, and not just as a time sink. How much of my life belongs out there in the ether?
[16:34] #knownspace> NickE: <duct tapes CCulpepper to the channel>
[16:35] #knownspace> CCulpepper: I wish... That is actually what i am using for insulation on my spliced phone cable...
[16:35] #knownspace> NickE: Well quite. Facebook's total assumption of everything on display is worrying. Some folk have zero idea of security
[16:36] #knownspace> EML: Fair question, Larry. Of course you can choose to limit the topics on which you discourse.
[16:36] #knownspace> NickE: The first thing it asks you for is your email *password* FFS! You don't have to give it so it can go find contacts, but the assumption that you should is worrying
[16:37] #knownspace> Larry: What I want in public, goes into my stories sooner or later.
[16:37] #knownspace> NickE: Fair enough
[16:37] #knownspace> Jim: OK
[16:37] #knownspace> EML: Indeed. I was just curious.
[16:37] #knownspace> NickE: I don't think I've ever posted enought private info to allow identity theft, but you never know
[16:38] #knownspace> EML: Well, you might know (but I don't wish that on you).
[16:38] #knownspace> CCulpepper: I see it as all of the info on social media is poublic anyway, names, addresses, etc
[16:38] #knownspace> NickE: As long as you are sensible, these sort of apps can have their uses, but I am wary
[16:39] #knownspace> NickE: Only if you put that info in and allow it to display to all and sundry. But you have to go into your profile and set it to be private: the default is for everyone to be able to see it!
[16:40] #knownspace> NickE: So I put in the minimum and set it to be readable by me only
[16:40] #knownspace> EML: Add RFID-enabled passports, EZ-pass transponders, and eventually currency to the mix, and it gets *really* scary.
[16:40] #knownspace> NickE: aye
[16:40] #knownspace> CCulpepper: If only you can read it whats the point?
[16:41] #knownspace> NickE: well, I don't fill any of the non esentials in like address anyway, but my email stays private. Folk who know me will have it anyway
[16:42] #knownspace> CCulpepper: ah, I see.
[16:42] #knownspace> NickE: but you have to provide your email address to get the account, so that is in the profile: that I make readable only by me
[16:42] #knownspace> CCulpepper: I see now.
[16:44] #knownspace> NickE: If someone wants to contact me via FAcebook, it sends a notification to my email. I keep my "friends" list short so it doesnt happen much
[16:45] #knownspace> NickE: Glad to see these type of vacuous sites not appearig in KS
[16:45] #knownspace> Jim: they exist in KS, Larry simply has not written a story about them
[16:46] #knownspace> NickE: Though obviously some networking goes on
[16:46] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Well with transfer booths, what is the point of social media when you can meet then quickly?
[16:46] #knownspace> NickE: and by the time of KS, they should have evolved into something actually useful of course :-)
[16:46] #knownspace> NickE: Fair point
[16:47] #knownspace> EML: To me, the key point about Facebook is that many people would rather post to the world than take the time to communicate one-on-one.
[16:47] #knownspace> NickE: This here is a lot more fun
[16:48] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Yes.
[16:48] #knownspace> Larry: In later Known Space, teleport booths cut into networking: you can go there yourself to get a conversation. (Maybe.)
[16:49] #knownspace> Jim: Do teleport booths allow children to roam free?
[16:50] #knownspace> NickE: That would make sense. Flash crowds established (and of course now organised IRL via Facebook) so why not discussion groups etc
[16:50] #knownspace> CCulpepper: What do transfer booths use to transfer things? Pipes, Electrical impulses?
[16:50] #knownspace> Jim: They could get into trouble (perverts, et al.)
[16:50] #knownspace> rimworlder: there's got to be parental controls, lol
[16:50] #knownspace> EML: Booths have v-chips, I'm guessing.
[16:51] #knownspace> NickE: Plus, booths not actually free in Louis Wu's time at least
[16:51] #knownspace> NickE: Cost equivalent to texting
[16:51] #knownspace> Jim: sexting
[16:51] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Texting is expensive without unlimited!
[16:51] #knownspace> NickE: But then you'd have contract accounts with 300 free jumps per month or whatever
[16:53] #knownspace> NickE: I'm guessing the advent of auto docs would reduce paedophilia in muc the same way as paranoia or schizophrenia if treatable chemically
[16:54] #knownspace> Jim: Pedophilia is a character flaw, not a mental illness.
[16:54] #knownspace> NickE: There's always nasty types, but the incidence should rduce to a minimum hoepfully
[16:54] #knownspace> EML: there are many reasons to limit the roaming of children. you might not want little kids to go unattended to, say, a beach.
[16:55] #knownspace> NickE: absolutely
[16:55] #knownspace> CCulpepper: You could put a fingerprint reader on the keys.
[16:56] #knownspace> EML: authentication is, surely, part of the mechanism.
[16:56] #knownspace> Jim: and an AI that will tell children to get lost
[16:56] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Or not to..
[16:56] #knownspace> NickE: character flaw in some possibly, but surely an illness in many cases
[16:56] #knownspace> Larry: Kids might get GPS implants. Adults get the choice to take them out.
[16:57] #knownspace> NickE: yes, kiddy trackers, built in sfaety features, limits etc
[16:57] #knownspace> EML: sounding rather totalitarian ...
[16:58] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Well with the way the US is going...
[16:58] #knownspace> NickE: well, the ARM does have a huge amount of control
[16:58] #knownspace> NickE: and the UK for that matter
[16:58] #knownspace> NickE: scary shit
[16:58] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Def. is.
[16:59] #knownspace> EML: the UK is far more contolled than the US. All those cameras. No written constitution.
[16:59] #knownspace> Jim: tell than to an UK citizen
[17:00] #knownspace> NickE: The restrictions of living as a Flatlander in Bey or LWs time would probably seem drastic to us
[17:00] #knownspace> EML: No wonder the non-flatphobes headed for the stars.
[17:00] #knownspace> NickE: aye
[17:00] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Yes, or the belt, or the moon.
[17:00] #knownspace> Larry: For KS I've assumed we'll grow more totalitarian. More freedoms otherwise point to a rising death rate. Was I right?
[17:01] #knownspace> Jim: yes
[17:01] #knownspace> NickE: In this case, I hope not in the long term
[17:01] #knownspace> EML: Larry: I hope your'e wrong. But the jury is still out.
[17:01] #knownspace> NickE: but it seems to be going that way sadly
[17:01] #knownspace> CCulpepper: At least the belt sounds alright.
[17:01] #knownspace> NickE: at the moment
[17:02] #knownspace> Larry: I hold with Ray Bradbury: you don't get 1984 if you've got access to the Moon and asteroids.
[17:03] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Makes sense.
[17:03] #knownspace> NickE: Oh I hope so
[17:03] #knownspace> Larry: Happy New Year, folk. It's lunchtime.
[17:03] #knownspace> NickE: I hope the current trend is temporary
[17:03] #knownspace> CCulpepper: From what ive read of 1984, it would be a bad thing.
[17:03] #knownspace> Jim: yes, at least for those who go to the Moon and asteroids
[17:03] #knownspace> NickE: HNY Larry, thanks for dropping in
[17:03] #knownspace> EML: alas, I don't see people leaving LEO any time soon.
[17:04] #knownspace> Jim: Happy New Year, and goodbye Larry
[17:04] #knownspace> EML: Bye, Larry.
[17:04] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Bye.
[17:04] #knownspace> Jim: EML: When do you expect people to leave LEO?
[17:04] #knownspace> CCulpepper: LEO?
[17:05] #knownspace> NickE: low earth orbit
[17:05] #knownspace> Jim: Low Earth Orbit
[17:05] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Ah.
[17:05] #knownspace> NickE: yeah, we have a way to go
[17:05] #knownspace> EML: Not that I have inside information, just reading the NASA budget tea leaves, I'll guess 2025 at the earliest.
[17:05] #knownspace> EML: Nick: way to go? Ha!
[17:05] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Hey! That sounds like i could ge into that..
[17:06] #knownspace> NickE: It's funny: I got the Haynes Manual for Apollo 11 for Christmas and they refer to leaving LEO as heading for deep space (the Moon)
[17:06] #knownspace> NickE: wish I did have a way to go :-)
[17:06] #knownspace> NickE: I'd share
[17:07] #knownspace> EML: My next solo novel is near-future space colonization. I hope I'm right about it ...
[17:07] #knownspace> NickE: cool
[17:07] #knownspace> CCulpepper: My guess is that it will be a private organization that actually gets us working on it, like with the human genome project.
[17:07] #knownspace> Jim: me too
[17:08] #knownspace> EML: if so, a very WEALTHY private organization
[17:08] #knownspace> NickE: aye, private ventures are at a very early stage yet, but it is actually happening which I find very encouraging
[17:08] #knownspace> CCulpepper: But they would get it back on top of a massive amount of profit.
[17:09] #knownspace> EML: two big issues: time value of money and getting the upfront funds.
[17:09] #knownspace> NickE: ah, you had to go spoil it :-/
[17:09] #knownspace> CCulpepper: But with the ecomomy... No they would have to use gold.
[17:10] #knownspace> NickE: timing seems to be important
[17:10] #knownspace> EML: I have an MBA, among my many flaws. I think about economic systems, not just what phytsics says is doable.
[17:10] #knownspace> NickE: I ust hope we (humans) can stay wealty enough to be able to afford it
[17:11] #knownspace> NickE: in time to benefit
[17:11] #knownspace> Jim: EML: what do you think of Austrian school?
[17:11] #knownspace> CCulpepper: If we stop spreading wealth the US could do it.
[17:11] #knownspace> EML: the Austrian school? of economics?
[17:11] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Hey! My history teacher talks about the austrian school!
[17:12] #knownspace> Jim: EML: yes, the Austrian school of economics
[17:13] #knownspace> EML: I'm not an economist. I remember there is an Austrian school, but now how it defines itself. My own leanings are toward free enterprise and the Chicago school.
[17:14] #knownspace> EML: (pesky fat fingers) but NOT how ...
[17:14] #knownspace> CCulpepper: see what?
[17:14] #knownspace> CCulpepper: sorry wrong window..
[17:15] #knownspace> EML: one possible explanation for the Fermi paradox is: no one has found a way to make interstellar travel (or comm) pay.
[17:16] #knownspace> Jim: EML: Libertarian economists tend to belong to either the Austrian or Chicago school (Milton Friedman). Austrians tend to be gold bugs, whereas Chicago types tend towards well managed fiat monies.
[17:17] #knownspace> CCulpepper: You could use interstellar travel to "dispose" of unwanted people.
[17:17] #knownspace> Jim: EML: I agree about making interstellar travel pay.
[17:17] #knownspace> Jim: CCulpepper: ST-TOS Space Seed
[17:17] #knownspace> EML: Jim: thanks. Yup, I'm a Chicagoan. Literraly. I grew up there, and my MBA is from the U. of Chicago. Never met Freidman, though.
[17:18] #knownspace> Jim: EML, yup I am a gold bug.
[17:18] #knownspace> EML: space is BIG. interstellar travel to dispense with excess population? I don't see it.
[17:19] #knownspace> Jim: Space is good place to put Khan Singh.
[17:19] #knownspace> CCulpepper: It could be a government project to remove enemies, or not.
[17:20] #knownspace> EML: but space CAN be an outlet for the dissatisfied and rebels. Give the troublemakers somewhere to go, and the rest will be docile.
[17:21] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Yes but then the trouble makers may throw rocks.
[17:21] #knownspace> Jim: EML: there was a Poul Anderson story about space being the place where rebels against the universal state go to be free
[17:22] #knownspace> EML: Jim: I think it's a common theme in fiction (and history).
[17:22] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Like australia?
[17:23] #knownspace> EML: CC: more, the North American colonies.
[17:23] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Ah.
[17:24] #knownspace> EML: I'm going to head off soon for dinner. HNY, all.
[17:24] #knownspace> NickE: bye Ed
[17:24] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Bye
[17:24] #knownspace> Jim: yes happy new year
[17:32] #knownspace> Jim: I gotta do also.
[17:32] #knownspace> Jim: bye
[17:32] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Bye, Happy New Year!
[17:33] #knownspace> rimworlder: later
[17:47] #knownspace> CCulpepper: I have to go too.
[17:54] #knownspace> NickE: and the exodus continues. This was a lot of fun. Thannx folks
[17:54] #knownspace> NickE: Night
[18:15] #knownspace> Akiraa: Would religious wars of the future be fought against trans-humanists?
[18:16] #knownspace> Akiraa: "The most dangerous idea" by Francis Fukuyama
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[22:07] #knownspace> Cubesforsythe: Well hello known spacers
[22:08] #knownspace> CCulpepper: hi
[22:08] #knownspace> Cubesforsythe: Did Larry and/or EML drop in today?
[22:08] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Both
[22:11] #knownspace> Cubesforsythe: Did they discuss Destroyer at all? Or KS in general?
[22:11] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Both i believe.
[22:16] #knownspace> Cubesforsythe: Awesome. I guess I'll have to catch up on those later on. Happy new year everyone.
[22:34] #knownspace> Lensman: Anyone still here?
[22:36] CCulpepper has joined #knownspace
[22:36] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Hey is anybody on?
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[23:14] Unclenasty has joined #knownspace
[23:14] #knownspace> Unclenasty: morning all
[23:47] #knownspace> Lensman: Morning
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[09:03] nedry has joined #knownspace
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[13:34] #knownspace> rimworlder: halooooooooo! is anybody home?
[13:45] Jim has joined #knownspace
[13:46] #knownspace> Jim: WTF
[13:52] #knownspace> sean: hi
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[13:59] #knownspace> NickE: HNY peeps
[13:59] #knownspace> sean: hey
[14:00] #knownspace> NickE: Hi Sean
[14:01] #knownspace> NickE: hope everyone had a peaceful New Year
[14:01] #knownspace> NickE: had a quiet night in with family
[14:02] #knownspace> NickE: and some Balvenie Doublewood of course :-)
[14:02] #knownspace> sean: i feel like i broke my arm
[14:02] #knownspace> NickE: why?
[14:02] #knownspace> sean: i broke my arm. ;)
[14:02] #knownspace> NickE: well that would exlain it
[14:03] #knownspace> NickE: I walked into that! What did you walk into?
[14:03] #knownspace> sean: yep, some patch of ice kicked my ass
[14:03] #knownspace> NickE: nasty
[14:03] #knownspace> NickE: it's been fairly lethal over here too
[14:04] #knownspace> sean: was flat on my back before i knew i had stepped on it
[14:04] #knownspace> NickE: had a few close calls
[14:04] #knownspace> NickE: ouch!
[14:04] #knownspace> sean: heard the pop when i hit
[14:04] #knownspace> NickE: eew
[14:04] #knownspace> NickE: not too bad a break I hope
[14:04] #knownspace> sean: middle of the humerous. which i did not find funny at all
[14:04] #knownspace> NickE: not that there's such a thing as a good break
[14:05] #knownspace> sean: clean break
[14:05] #knownspace> NickE: hopefully that should heal up fine then Stil a pain tho
[14:06] #knownspace> sean: in a splint. makes it a lot easier to shower than a cast
[14:06] #knownspace> NickE: My dad bust his hip (not on ice) a month or so back. Doing OK at hom now though
[14:06] #knownspace> NickE: home
[14:07] #knownspace> sean: good. that he is doing ok, not about the hip
[14:08] #knownspace> NickE: yeah, Mum was glad to have him home for Christmas
[14:08] Lensman has joined #knownspace
[14:08] #knownspace> NickE: Hi Lens
[14:08] #knownspace> Lensman: Hi Nick!
[14:09] #knownspace> Lensman: Which book? /Lucifer's Hammer/, I'm guessing? Or is it /Fallen Angels/?
[14:09] #knownspace> NickE: WRT what?
[14:10] #knownspace> NickE: Or a choice?
[14:10] #knownspace> Lensman: Today's topic.
[14:10] #knownspace> NickE: Waht like a Niven related topic? There's a novelty :-)
[14:11] #knownspace> sean: hammer
[14:11] #knownspace> NickE: Fallen Angels is probably the one I rad most recently (lik 3 years or so ago last time)
[14:11] #knownspace> Lensman: Page 32 is in the forward? That can't be right!
[14:11] #knownspace> NickE: Or Hammer :-)
[14:12] #knownspace> NickE: Oh yah, the subject. Just spotted that
[14:12] #knownspace> NickE: :-)
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[14:13] #knownspace> Lensman: Yup, I was right, it's /Lucifer's Hammer/. Page 27 of the hardcover, so maybe it *is* p. 32 in the pb.
[14:13] #knownspace> sean: it is 32 in the paperback
[14:13] #knownspace> Lensman: I apologize for trying to talk about an actual Niven related subject. :)
[14:14] #knownspace> Lensman: Holy Kdapt forbid!
[14:14] #knownspace> NickE: ah e were just comparing medical stories
[14:18] #knownspace> NickE: so (not having mine to hand this second) the preaching accusation was directed at L and J wrt Hammer by someone?
[14:20] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, no e-mail from Larry yet so hopefully we'll see him today.
[14:20] #knownspace> sean: doesnt say by who
[14:20] #knownspace> Lensman: WRT nuclear power in /Hammer/.
[14:21] #knownspace> Lensman: I presume by various reviewers of the book.
[14:21] #knownspace> NickE: well obviously I guess
[14:21] #knownspace> NickE: though i'd dispute it being a pro nuke manifesto
[14:23] #knownspace> sean: well, harvey goes nuts on a female eco-freak in it about nuke power
[14:23] #knownspace> Lensman: I imagine if I was anti nuclear power, it would come across as "preaching". But since I'm pro, he's preaching to the converted here.
[14:23] #knownspace> NickE: more taking something that was a logical proposition and including it in a damn good story. I'm sure that Larry and Jerry may have had an "agenda", but surely a good science fiction novel has teh ability to educate as well as entertain
[14:24] #knownspace> NickE: well, yeah, preaching to teh choir here anyway :-)
[14:24] #knownspace> sean: very true
[14:26] #knownspace> Lensman: Well I have to agree it's preaching. At the end of the book, the protagonists essentially have to decide whether to risk everything to preserve the nuclear plant and thus remain civilized, or else stick to their own enclave and regress to medievalism.
[14:27] #knownspace> sean: my decision would of been the same as their's
[14:27] #knownspace> NickE: aye
[14:27] #knownspace> NickE: brb
[14:28] #knownspace> Lensman: Where I quibble is over "preaching" being a negative thing. Some things *need* to be preached about! Finagle help us, there are rabid anti-nuclear folks out there still. I can only think that they've become conditioned to react to the words "nuclear" or "radiation" with a knee-jerk fear. It's like they won't even consider that nuclear power could be the solution to our global warming...
[14:28] #knownspace> Lensman: ...problems, and our dependence on foreign oil.
[14:29] #knownspace> Lensman: And now *I* need to get off the soap box.
[14:30] #knownspace> sean: face it about foreign oil... if we discovered and drilled huge new oil fields, we would still buy foreign oil cuz it is cheaper. :)
[14:31] #knownspace> Lensman: At $100 barrel, I don't think it's cheaper.
[14:32] #knownspace> Lensman: However, at least some of that is speculation in oil futures artificially inflating the cost, not the actual cost.
[14:32] #knownspace> sean: try 79 right now. but our own would cost probably 150 for 10 years + until the infrastructure was in place and paid for.
[14:33] #knownspace> Akiraa: hi
[14:33] #knownspace> sean: hi akirra
[14:33] #knownspace> Akiraa: more people on than usual :)
[14:33] #knownspace> Lensman: I don't think so. We used to get the vast majority of oil from domestic sources. I don't think it would take that much to switch back.
[14:33] #knownspace> sean: 1st sat chat today
[14:34] #knownspace> Jim: happy new year
[14:34] #knownspace> Lensman: For instance, putting in the Alaska oil pipeline didn't push oil above $100 per barrel.
[14:34] #knownspace> sean: we are going to get it from the cheapest place, so that is what we do.
[14:35] #knownspace> sean: if (name your country) started selling it for 20 bucks a barrel, that is what we would buy. :)
[14:35] #knownspace> Lensman: Akiraa, welcome to the regular monthly Niven chat!
[14:36] #knownspace> Akiraa: is larry niven on, btw?
[14:36] #knownspace> Jim: nope
[14:37] #knownspace> sean: he has been logging in as Larry lately
[14:37] #knownspace> Jim: Akiraa, what is your real name?
[14:37] #knownspace> nedry: I'm waiting for Destroyer of Worlds to turn up, so I can read that.
[14:37] CCulpepper has joined #knownspace
[14:37] #knownspace> sean: he used to log in as Fifthp
[14:38] #knownspace> Akiraa: Jim: my name is adrian
[14:38] #knownspace> sean: i enjoyed Destroyer but liked Juggler more
[14:38] #knownspace> Jim: nedry, are you waiting for the MMPB of DOW?
[14:38] #knownspace> Akiraa: I'm a computer science undergrad working on system admin and some telephony
[14:39] #knownspace> Jim: Akiraa, are you from Oz?
[14:39] #knownspace> Akiraa: Romania ^^
[14:39] #knownspace> Lensman: Hey Mark! What do you mean "turn up"?
[14:40] #knownspace> Akiraa: I'm quite new to niven's works, only having read Ringworld 1,2,3 and half of 4
[14:40] #knownspace> nedry: heh
[14:40] #knownspace> sean: the worlds books are being released right before my BD so i have been blessed with 3 hardbacks
[14:40] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, if you managed to get all the way thru 3 then 4 should be an easy and fun read!
[14:40] #knownspace> nedry: I have to go get my wife from work in a minute. it's been snowing... again. might not be fun.
[14:41] #knownspace> nedry: like a skating rink
[14:41] #knownspace> sean: don't break an arm, mark
[14:41] #knownspace> sean: i am typing 1 fingered for the next 2 months do due an unseen patch of ice
[14:41] #knownspace> CCulpepper: ow
[14:42] #knownspace> Lensman: Mark, I don't like the quote that the "Nessus" page starts with, on the LarryNiven.org site. What do you think about changing that? Frankly I'd like to dump the whole page and start fresh. Don't like the illustration either.
[14:42] #knownspace> Akiraa: Say, has anyone done some work on mapping the ringworld?
[14:43] #knownspace> Lensman: Ouch! Hope you find an autodoc soon, Sean.
[14:43] #knownspace> nedry: lemme look
[14:43] #knownspace> nedry: i agree. i never liked that picture...
[14:44] #knownspace> Lensman: Akiraa: You'll find a map of part of Ringworld in the /Companion/ to the Ringworld RPG. Pretty sure you can see a copy of that at the larryniven.org site, altho it may not be in sufficient detail to read everything on it.
[14:44] #knownspace> nedry: it used to be at the bottom of every puppeteer page
[14:44] #knownspace> sean: there is a ringworld add on to a freeware space sim that i cant remember the name of... do you, mark?
[14:45] #knownspace> sean: i didn't have the video horsepower to look at it at the time it was sent to us
[14:45] #knownspace> Akiraa: It would be impossible to map Ringworld with current computer storrage possibilities, but something may be possible with some clever procedural mapping
[14:45] #knownspace> Lensman: As far as mapping the entire Ringworld, forget it. It's what, a million earths in surface area?
[14:46] #knownspace> Akiraa: yeah, I have the celestia addon
[14:46] #knownspace> sean: 3 million earths i think
[14:46] #knownspace> CCulpepper: 300 m. I believe
[14:46] #knownspace> NickE: back
[14:46] #knownspace> CCulpepper: or 3Yes it is 3 million.
[14:46] #knownspace> NickE: yup
[14:47] #knownspace> NickE: big anyway :-)
[14:47] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Could you get away with only mapping the important parts?
[14:48] #knownspace> sean: celestia was the space sim i think
[14:48] #knownspace> NickE: The RWC map covers the small area dalt with in the first 2 books
[14:48] #knownspace> Lensman: If by "important parts" you mean the scene of the action of the books... then like I said, there's a map in the Ringworld RPG /Companion/.
[14:49] #knownspace> Akiraa: http://www.google.com/search?rls=en&hs=lT&q=2%2Api%2A1au%2A10%5E6+%2F+%2... 1.843m Earth surfaces
[14:49] #knownspace> CCulpepper: I mean just skip parts like the oceans that you could just til;e over.
[14:49] #knownspace> NickE: In RW, the point is mde that the "exploration" took place basically between 2 cosey situated meteor holes
[14:49] #knownspace> Akiraa: (2 * pi * (1 au) * (10^6)) / (510 * (10^6) km) = 1 843 043.05
[14:49] #knownspace> Lensman: There's no map in RC. There's one in RE. The RPG map covers the same area in more detail, and supposedly with a better fit to the description in the bookx.
[14:50] #knownspace> sean: yep, nick. 1/5th of the width
[14:51] #knownspace> Lensman: You could use a fractal map generation program to map all the Ringworld if you wanted to. But it would be pointless, and it wouldn't have any relation to anything in the books.
[14:51] #knownspace> NickE: It certainly matches better for game purposes
[14:51] #knownspace> NickE: (The RWC map)
[14:53] #knownspace> Lensman: There is no map in the hardcover edition of RWC. Are you saying there is one in the pb edition?
[14:53] #knownspace> NickE: sorry, RW Companon, not Children
[14:53] #knownspace> NickE: epic accronym fail
[14:54] #knownspace> NickE: suggest RWCo and RWCh for this discussion :-)
[14:55] #knownspace> Lensman: Oh, sorry!
[14:55] #knownspace> Akiraa: ah, 1m miles width, that makes it 3 million Earth surfaces
[14:55] #knownspace> NickE: yes
[14:55] #knownspace> CCulpepper: But why would the protectors use imperialistic earth measurements?
[14:56] #knownspace> Jim: cause Larry does not like the metric system
[14:56] #knownspace> NickE: they wouldn't, the book was written by an American in 1970
[14:56] #knownspace> CCulpepper: o, I see.
[14:56] #knownspace> NickE: NASA used imperial for a loong time
[14:57] #knownspace> Lensman: A loose sheet in the RPG box has a 1/2 inch band running across the width of the page. Next to that is a paragraph entitled "WHERE IS THE MAP OF RINGWORLD?"
[14:57] #knownspace> Jim: In Known Space, the metric system was replaced by a UN system that used miles, feet, pounds, etc.,
[14:57] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Well government thinks that all of thier systems are best....
[14:57] #knownspace> NickE: heh
[14:58] #knownspace> Akiraa: Also, why polar projections for redrawn worlds? Elliptical projections would have had much less distortion (at least in the Southern hemisphere)
[14:58] #knownspace> NickE: yes that loose sheet is a nic touch to get you to think about actual scale
[14:58] #knownspace> Lensman: "The band below is one-half-inch wide, a width representing in scale approximately 1 million miles. The circumference of the Ring to this scale is nearly 25 feet (the actual circumference is some 597,000,000 miles.) A 25-foot tape measure bent round upon itself will give the players a very good idea of the actual proportions (and awesome size) of the Ringworld."
[14:59] #knownspace> Jim: In DOW, there is a scene where Sigmund has to convert units from the SI system that was being used by the captive humans to the UN system (US Customary system) that he was used to using.
[14:59] #knownspace> Lensman: Akiraa: No matter what you do, you're going to have to distort the maps in some manner. And it appears the Maps were not all distorted in the same fashion, either.
[15:00] #knownspace> CCulpepper: DOW?
[15:00] #knownspace> Lensman: Destroyer of Worlds
[15:00] #knownspace> CCulpepper: o I see.
[15:00] #knownspace> Jim: yes, do you want me to find the page number?
[15:00] #knownspace> Jim: after the chat, of course
[15:01] #knownspace> Lensman: Akiraa: I think the best interpretation is that for planets with continents, the continents are represented as close to their real shapes as possible, with the seas between distorted. Obviously you can't reproduce the wraparound effect of a ball world.
[15:01] #knownspace> Jim: hello
[15:02] #knownspace> Lensman: Hi Jim. No, we want you to do it in real time. You *do* have an electronic searchable copy, don't you? ;)
[15:02] #knownspace> NickE: I don't recall that quote
[15:02] #knownspace> Akiraa: Lensman: stepping surfaces disks on the edges :)
[15:03] #knownspace> NickE: but I'm sure it's there
[15:03] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Or a stepping ring..
[15:03] #knownspace> Akiraa: could even have a gigantic projection screen to create the illusion of a wraparound world
[15:03] #knownspace> CCulpepper: The kzin would kill that fast.
[15:04] #knownspace> Lensman: Akiraa: LOL! Well, if the Ringworld Engineers had Puppeteer tech, things would be rather different. I'm reminded of the comment about Star Trek: "The question is, if you have replicators then why do you *need* starships?"
[15:04] #knownspace> Lensman: I vaguely recall what Jim is referring to, but I didn't find it significant enuff to put in my notes for JOW.
[15:04] #knownspace> CCulpepper: If the Engineers had puppeteer tech. Why would they need to build a ringworld?
[15:05] #knownspace> Akiraa: The Pak were contemporary with the Puppeteers, at least for a million years, not?
[15:05] #knownspace> NickE: they wouldn't
[15:05] #knownspace> Akiraa: at their heyday
[15:06] #knownspace> NickE: It seems very liely that the Pupetteers first encounter with Pak was as dscribed in DOW
[15:06] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, if Proserpina's tale is to be believed, the Pak had space travel a million years ago. Altho never FTL. Obviously the Outsiders will never sell hyperdrive to the Pak, because the Pak would attack them before negotiations were possible.
[15:06] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Makes sense.
[15:07] #knownspace> Akiraa: What did the Outsiders actually buy ? What wasn't very clear.
[15:07] #knownspace> Lensman: CCul: Exactly, if the Ringworld Engineers had Puppeteer tech, they wouldn't build a Ringworld.
[15:07] #knownspace> Akiraa: For that matter, what would Puppeteers do with Earth currency?
[15:08] #knownspace> Jim: the same thing China does with US currency
[15:08] #knownspace> Lensman: Akiraa: The Puppeteers use Earth currency to manipulate human policy and economics.
[15:08] #knownspace> CCulpepper: The outsiders bought cold frozen moons for bases i believe.
[15:08] #knownspace> SeanS: the outsiders lease nereid. didn't buy it.
[15:09] #knownspace> Lensman: Right, the Outsiders rent and buy real estate in clients' systems. Why a species evolved for the microgravity of outer space like to spend time on small icy moons is a mystery, but they do. Maybe just a change of scenery.
[15:09] #knownspace> Lensman: Gotta go. Nice chatting with y'all, and say "Hi" to Larry if he shows up!
[15:10] #knownspace> Jim: bye lensman
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[15:11] #knownspace> SeanS: l8r, lensman
[15:11] #knownspace> Akiraa: Lensman: If continents are to be represented as real as possible, the best fitting projection is something like the dymaxion (an fitted icosahedron unfolded onto a flat surface)
[15:12] #knownspace> Lensman: Akiraa: Yes, Dymaxian, exactly.
[15:12] #knownspace> Akiraa: depending on the fitting, it may be possible to lay most of the dry land on a nearly distortion-free projection
[15:13] #knownspace> Lensman: If a Kzin attacks a Puppeteer, he soon finds himself financially ruined. Consider the implications of that statement! Paul Chafe says the Kzinti don't use money. Paul is wrong.
[15:13] #knownspace> Lensman: Really, got to go.
[15:13] #knownspace> CCulpepper[1]: Bye
[15:13] #knownspace> Jim: I think that Louis Wu describes Ringworld as having Mercator maps of the planets
[15:13] #knownspace> Akiraa: \o
[15:14] #knownspace> Akiraa: I remember reading polar projection with the Southern hemisphere encircling the outside
[15:14] #knownspace> SeanS: south polar projections. don't think he said what type of projection
[15:14] #knownspace> NickE: thats what I recal
[15:14] #knownspace> Akiraa: north polar projection with the south pole on the exterior circle
[15:14] #knownspace> NickE: or at least that's teh assumption in the RPG as I remember
[15:17] #knownspace> Akiraa: "The Map was a polar projection; the south pole was spread out around the rim" -- from Ringworld Engineers
[15:17] #knownspace> NickE: Never been really clear on why Pak, violent xenophobes went to all that bother
[15:17] #knownspace> NickE: seems very wasteful of resources
[15:18] #knownspace> CCulpepper[1]: That is a mystery.
[15:19] #knownspace> NickE: I get the idea, it makes for some great WOW factor and story teling, but the actul reasons seem very unclear
[15:19] #knownspace> Akiraa: "Half a million miles from the map of Earth was another cluster. As with the Earth map, the oceans were distorted by
[15:19] #knownspace> Akiraa: the polar projection, but the continents were not"
[15:19] #knownspace> Akiraa: ah, I see
[15:19] Larry has joined #knownspace
[15:19] #knownspace> SeanS: hi Larry
[15:19] #knownspace> Akiraa: not a standard projection
[15:19] #knownspace> NickE: Hi Larry
[15:19] #knownspace> Jim: hi Larry
[15:20] #knownspace> CCulpepper[1]: Hi
[15:20] #knownspace> NickE: discussion is of projections of the planetary maps in teh Great Oceans
[15:20] #knownspace> Larry: Hi and Happy New Year. Getting in was difficult. I've installed Java.
[15:21] #knownspace> Akiraa: probably easier to have someone install you a chat client ^^
[15:21] #knownspace> NickE: HNY to you too. The applet works
[15:21] #knownspace> SeanS: so using the java client on larryniven.org?
[15:21] #knownspace> Larry: No, I didn't use standard projections. I needed gigantic islands. For Earth, North polar projection. (South would have worked; land would have been less clustered.)
[15:21] #knownspace> Akiraa: with nickserv authentication
[15:22] #knownspace> NickE: Ah, that's what Akiraa said
[15:22] #knownspace> Larry: Yeah, I'm here as a Java client--I think.
[15:23] #knownspace> NickE: So, Why the maps? Why would the Pak go to all that effort? (If this was covered, I've forgotten :-)
[15:23] #knownspace> SeanS: as long as it works. if you have flash installed, you can type irc.larryniven.org into any browser and get in.
[15:24] #knownspace> NickE: I mean, rounding up a base poulation of proto kzinti can't have been easy!
[15:24] #knownspace> NickE: population
[15:25] #knownspace> Akiraa: I think the kzinti were introduced to see if they posed a threat to the breeders
[15:25] #knownspace> Akiraa: or how large a threat
[15:25] #knownspace> Jim: evolution experiment
[15:25] #knownspace> NickE: I think a Protector would be able to figure that out without having to buld a worl map
[15:25] #knownspace> SeanS: yeah... i doubt Pak would of developed weapons with a "stun" function
[15:26] #knownspace> CCulpepper[1]: Well thier normal weapons for breeders might KO the kzinti.
[15:26] #knownspace> Jim: SeanS: yes they would, the stun setting would be used on breeders
[15:26] #knownspace> NickE: Possibly an experiment - the ocean isolation is a great idea, but would Pak actually bother with something like that?
[15:26] #knownspace> Larry: I dunno why they did it. Some protector's hobby, no doubt. A powerful protector's projects could last ten thousand years--and get interrupted at random.
[15:27] #knownspace> NickE: Any threat to any Protectors bloodline would surely guarantee extermination of any experiment
[15:27] #knownspace> SeanS: ok,Jim, I can buy that.
[15:27] #knownspace> Akiraa: What's strange is that the kzin can feed on human flesh or Earth ecology animals in general. Being an independently evolved carbon life form, it would be very unlikely they'd develop the same kinds of amino acids...
[15:28] #knownspace> NickE: Except that we all evolved from Slaver food yeast
[15:28] #knownspace> CCulpepper[1]: Thats what it would take tens of thousands of years, only to bring them all that way, without FTL.
[15:28] #knownspace> NickE: stuff like AA coding gets conserved very well
[15:28] #knownspace> NickE: (like copletely)
[15:28] #knownspace> NickE: completely)
[15:30] #knownspace> NickE: Additional AAs may be used, but generally I can buy kzinti being able to digest long pig
[15:30] #knownspace> CCulpepper[1]: AAs?
[15:31] #knownspace> Jim: amino acids
[15:31] #knownspace> NickE: amino acids (sorry, biologist)
[15:31] #knownspace> CCulpepper[1]: oh. I see.
[15:32] #knownspace> Akiraa: also, a 50-50 chance of evolving amino acids of the opposite chirality (orientation)
[15:32] #knownspace> NickE: there are very few variants in Earth based amino acids
[15:32] #knownspace> Larry: I needed an enemy alien. SURE it can eat human flesh.
[15:33] #knownspace> NickE: except slaver food yeast clearly used laevo form same as us
[15:33] #knownspace> NickE: The yeast explanation provides that
[15:33] #knownspace> Akiraa: "<Larry> I needed an enemy alien. SURE it can eat human flesh. " -- that's quote material :)
[15:34] #knownspace> NickE: heh
[15:34] #knownspace> Larry: Once upon a time I found this in the letter column of Analog: a guy accused me of lack of imagination because the nerves cross in a Motie.
[15:34] #knownspace> NickE: being eaten is a great primal fear to tap into for bad guys to have over good guys
[15:34] #knownspace> Jim: the nerves cross in humans
[15:35] #knownspace> Larry: This is a bum rap. I decided that either it's a fifty-fifty shot, or there's a reason for the crossing even if we don't know it.
[15:35] #knownspace> SeanS: you came up with an assymetrical alien race that ,makes sense and had no imagination. right :)
[15:35] #knownspace> NickE: 'xact;y
[15:36] #knownspace> SeanS: just started re-reading mote ,btw. lenin and mccarther just jumped to the mote.
[15:36] #knownspace> Larry: Nerves that don't cross (i. e. left brain covers left body) would restrict communication, maybe cripple the critter.
[15:36] #knownspace> Akiraa: How do you keep a giant fictional universe consistent, Larry? There are stitchmarks, but it's not bad, really :)
[15:37] #knownspace> NickE: great thing about biology is that there's usua;ly weirdr shit going on in reality than most folk can dream up
[15:37] #knownspace> Larry: What I'm getting at: sometimes I really did think it through...and sometimes I didn't. Here is the only place you can find out.
[15:37] #knownspace> NickE: Grendels frex
[15:37] #knownspace> NickE: based on reality
[15:38] #knownspace> NickE: well teh life cycle bit anyway
[15:38] #knownspace> Larry: I try for consistency. These days I leave it to Ed Lerner, who is good at resolving the differences. And I can always dip into another universe.
[15:38] #knownspace> NickE: handy that :-)
[15:39] #knownspace> Jim: Larry, will there be more Known Space stories after the series with Ed Lerner is completed?
[15:39] #knownspace> Larry: I've met the guy who found the cannibalistic frogs. He had a really hard job getting anyone to believe him. I guess it does sound like an urban myth.
[15:40] #knownspace> NickE: KS is pretty good (excllent) at being consistent in feel and general even if minor things inevitably crop up (unavoidable given the breadth of the universe)
[15:40] #knownspace> Akiraa: it should be common knowledge that many species are already cannibalistic
[15:40] #knownspace> Larry: I don't foresee any Known Space stories after THE FATE OF WORLDS. Then again, the Known Space stories have often surprised me.
[15:40] #knownspace> NickE: But not to teh degree shown by Grendels
[15:41] #knownspace> CCulpepper[1]: What is to stop cannabalism except for intelligence and herbavore eating habits?
[15:41] #knownspace> NickE: Except of course that their cckle is based on a genuine example
[15:42] #knownspace> Larry: The breadth of Poul Anderson's universe is so great that he could usually avoid inconsistencies. Even so: only part of the galaxy.
[15:42] #knownspace> NickE: I'm glad teh KS stories have kept surprising us too
[15:43] #knownspace> NickE: So 5 books in teh Worlds set then?
[15:43] #knownspace> NickE: Betrayer and then Fate makes 5
[15:44] #knownspace> NickE: (loved Destroyer btw)
[15:44] #knownspace> Larry: Yes, Nick, it'll be 5. We've already completed "Betrayer of Worlds",
[15:44] #knownspace> CCulpepper[1]: Is destroyer available on paperback?
[15:44] #knownspace> NickE: not yet I think?
[15:45] #knownspace> NickE: WooHoo!
[15:45] #knownspace> Larry: My guess: "Destroyer" won't be paperback for many months.
[15:45] #knownspace> CCulpepper[1]: I see, I will only buy paper back untill i can find a job..
[15:45] #knownspace> NickE: Took great pleasure in buying my bother the first 3 for hristmas
[15:45] #knownspace> NickE: Christmas
[15:46] #knownspace> Larry: Nick: you don't have to keep correcting spelling. We can extrapolate.
[15:46] #knownspace> CCulpepper[1]: I think i might use christmas money to buy used books.
[15:47] #knownspace> NickE: TBH, the gap between hardback and paperback isn't that great these days, but I appreciate the shoestring budget siuation
[15:47] #knownspace> NickE: good, my typing tends to suck in chats :-)
[15:48] #knownspace> Akiraa: Is Ringworld RPG available anywhere? Not sure if it's even compatible with DOS emulation...
[15:49] #knownspace> NickE: Ebay is your best bet. It's been out of production a looong time
[15:49] #knownspace> CCulpepper[1]: Tro gog.com, they stock old games.
[15:49] #knownspace> NickE: Or do you mean the computer games?
[15:49] #knownspace> Akiraa: ah, not a computer game, just a tabletop RPG
[15:50] #knownspace> NickE: I treasure my (bought at the time of publication - 1984) Chaosium RW RPG
[15:50] #knownspace> NickE: Hard to find, but full of great stuff
[15:51] #knownspace> NickE: I even have the Louis Wu and His Motley Crew module published in Different Worlds 37
[15:51] #knownspace> NickE: (have the issue)
[15:51] #knownspace> NickE: and the RWCo supplement
[15:52] #knownspace> NickE: Good game back in the days I used to play
[15:52] #knownspace> SeanS: i uses to have the chaosium game. it died with all my other stuff in '98
[15:53] #knownspace> NickE: Oh crap yeah. Did Carol lose hers as well in her fire?
[15:53] #knownspace> SeanS: don't know
[15:53] #knownspace> NickE: nasty
[15:54] #knownspace> Larry: fires are bad.
[15:54] #knownspace> NickE: Bigtme
[15:54] #knownspace> NickE: know you've had close calls where you live
[15:55] #knownspace> Akiraa: Ringworld is ripe for a big Hollywood film, as well as several modern games; look at Halo :)
[15:55] #knownspace> CCulpepper[1]: But they would fail miserably.
[15:55] #knownspace> NickE: Look at Avatar. the Tech is up to doing it now
[15:56] #knownspace> NickE: Oh no real doubt about that. Hollyweird being the way it is
[15:56] #knownspace> NickE: <sigh>
[15:56] #knownspace> CCulpepper[1]: Avatar was amazing... They could do it but all of the Halo fans would think its a rip off of thier series.
[15:56] #knownspace> SeanS: i don't want to see what hollywood would do to ringworld. look what they did to hitchhiker.
[15:56] #knownspace> NickE: Yep. There was a great cartoon that took that idea that was posted on the list waaay back
[15:57] #knownspace> NickE: Oh ghod yes
[15:57] #knownspace> Akiraa: Halo, but bigger and with furry sex :D
[15:57] #knownspace> NickE: Just been watching the old BBC TV version, Soooo much better even with clunky FX
[15:57] #knownspace> NickE: eeewww
[15:58] #knownspace> Larry: I liked the Hitchhiker movie. Folk, can you remember how many variants there were by the primary authors? Many!
[15:58] #knownspace> NickE: Ohtotally
[15:59] #knownspace> NickE: Douglas could never stop tinkering with the story :-)
[15:59] #knownspace> SeanS: true
[15:59] #knownspace> CCulpepper[1]: I prefer the old show as well. My dad got that and a whole bunch of other stuff on VHS.
[15:59] #knownspace> NickE: Radio, book, vinyl album, stageplay, TV, film...
[16:00] #knownspace> Larry: exactly. "Hitchhiker" has become iconic: everybody's property. (Not a legal opinion.)
[16:00] #knownspace> CCulpepper[1]: Wait i take that back! The books were the best.
[16:00] #knownspace> NickE: The radio version was always my fav, mainly as I heard it at original broadcast
[16:01] #knownspace> NickE: Oh agreed. It's like Python in that regard - everyone can quote great chunks :-)
[16:01] #knownspace> NickE: My kids are no exception I'm happy to say :-)
[16:02] EML has joined #knownspace
[16:02] #knownspace> NickE: Hi Ed
[16:02] #knownspace> EML: Hi, all. Happy New year.
[16:03] #knownspace> NickE: Woah, full house!
[16:03] #knownspace> NickE: Shiny!
[16:03] #knownspace> Larry: Happy New Year, Ed. There has been Known Space discussion.
[16:03] CCulpepper has joined #knownspace
[16:03] #knownspace> NickE: wb
[16:03] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Yes. Dial up failed...
[16:03] #knownspace> NickE: i remember that
[16:04] #knownspace> EML: A KS discussion? This seems like the place :-)
[16:04] #knownspace> NickE: sucked then
[16:04] #knownspace> NickE: Maps, amino acids etc
[16:05] #knownspace> EML: I'll bite. what do maps and amino acids have to do with each other (and what progression is implied by the "etc.") ?
[16:06] #knownspace> NickE: heh
[16:07] #knownspace> NickE: RW maps posited by Jim as an evolution experiment. Some discussion about why kzin could eat human meat - amino acid sequences - have to be same as all evolved from Slaver food yeast#
[16:08] Jim has joined #knownspace
[16:08] #knownspace> NickE: All laevo form
[16:08] #knownspace> NickE: eb Jim
[16:08] #knownspace> EML: has there been any discussion of Destroyer, or is it too soon for that?
[16:08] #knownspace> NickE: wb
[16:08] #knownspace> NickE: Some folk have yet to read it. But it was very enjoyable
[16:09] #knownspace> EML: Always good to hear, Nick.
[16:09] #knownspace> Jim: EML, was there a scene in DOW where SI units had to be converted to UN units?
[16:09] #knownspace> NickE: Had several "oh shit that was cool!" moments
[16:10] #knownspace> NickE: (don't want to spoil tho)
[16:11] #knownspace> NickE: a certain escape strategy that exploited certain previously established tech details was particularly neat
[16:11] #knownspace> EML: Jim: the practice (established in earlier books of the series) is that New Terrans use English units and any other humans use metric.
[16:11] #knownspace> NickE: (hope that didn't give too much away)
[16:12] #knownspace> NickE: Seems reasonable
[16:12] #knownspace> EML: Nick: it's a rare project of mine in which someone *doesn't* escape from something.
[16:12] #knownspace> NickE: hehe
[16:14] #knownspace> NickE: The Q came up as to why RW stats were in imperial units. (Poinetd out that Larry wrote this in 1970 and the US still uses miles etc outside of scinece labs)
[16:14] #knownspace> NickE: mostly
[16:15] #knownspace> NickE: I us metric all day as a scientist, but firmly think of walking/driving distance in miles and my height in feet and inches
[16:15] #knownspace> EML: the Q as in STNG?
[16:15] #knownspace> NickE: sorry, Question
[16:15] #knownspace> NickE: me and my bloody shorthand
[16:16] #knownspace> EML: Or me and my occasional literalness.
[16:16] #knownspace> NickE: which with my typing non skill is silly really :-)
[16:16] #knownspace> Larry: What I figured, early in Known Space, was that some pocket widget would translate English, metric, and other measurements without anybody worrying about it much. I've held to that.
[16:17] #knownspace> NickE: And there must be any number of apps for iPhones that do exactly that
[16:17] #knownspace> EML: an early iPhone, methinks :-)
[16:17] #knownspace> NickE: or any modrn phone
[16:17] #knownspace> NickE: so, prophetic again :-)
[16:18] #knownspace> EML: I've cracked the pattern, Nick. There's a serious vowel rationing where you live. :-)
[16:18] #knownspace> CCulpepper: lol
[16:19] #knownspace> EML: CCulpepper -- is that as in Culpeper, VA?
[16:19] #knownspace> NickE: I don't have a problem with the stories picking one set of units and sticking with them - easier to write and easier to read
[16:19] #knownspace> NickE: yu thnk so?
[16:19] #knownspace> EML: lol
[16:19] #knownspace> Larry: it doesn't have to be an advanced tricorder or cellphone. The widget could be tattooed on the back of a hand. Ed triggered to that: see "Juggler".
[16:19] #knownspace> CCulpepper: No, i have 2 Ps, But the name does come from around there, I think mine is swedish in origin.
[16:19] #knownspace> Jim: Context: there was a discussion between Ronn, myself, and some others on the e-mail list about geologists and others not using SI units. I still think that geologists should be forced to use SI units.
[16:19] #knownspace> NickE: (hate text speak)
[16:20] #knownspace> NickE: And of course the implant widget was established in Cloak of Anarchy (the watch)
[16:21] #knownspace> NickE: so well within continuity for KS
[16:21] #knownspace> NickE: brb
[16:22] #knownspace> EML: a wayward synapse just fired. there was a story called "The Widget, the Wadget, and Boff." I can't rememeber what it's about or who wrote it.
[16:23] #knownspace> NickE: doesnt ring a bell
[16:23] #knownspace> Jim: Theodore Sturgeon
[16:23] #knownspace> NickE: ah
[16:24] #knownspace> NickE: nice catch
[16:24] #knownspace> Larry: "The Widget, the Wadget, and Boff" was by Theodore Sturgeon. Aliens monitoring a boardinghouse with intent to judge humanity.
[16:24] #knownspace> EML: Ah, yes.
[16:25] #knownspace> NickE: no chocolate covered manholes then :-)
[16:25] #knownspace> Larry: Only the baby could see them.
[16:25] #knownspace> EML: That synapse can now go back to sleep :-)
[16:26] #knownspace> Jim: There were some episodes of the Flintstones where there was an alien only the men and the babies could see.
[16:27] #knownspace> Jim: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Gazoo
[16:28] #knownspace> EML: Wikipedia just goes to show how many people have WAY too much time on their hands ...
[16:28] #knownspace> NickE: heh
[16:29] #knownspace> NickE: says he who does podcasts in what free time he has
[16:30] #knownspace> NickE: I gues some folk do wikipedia as a hobby
[16:30] #knownspace> EML: I'm afraid to learn Facebook or twitter because of the time sinks they would be.
[16:30] #knownspace> EML: Blogging is time-consumign enough.
[16:31] #knownspace> Larry: I too fear Facebook and Twitter. Should use Wiki more.
[16:31] #knownspace> NickE: agreed. I do have a Facebook account, but only check once a fortnight and do not rely on it at all
[16:31] #knownspace> Jim: It is said that celebrities hire people to twitter for them.
[16:31] #knownspace> NickE: he'll be back :-)
[16:31] #knownspace> EML: Those people are called Twits.
[16:32] #knownspace> NickE: I dislike the idea of Twitter - mainly for the time sink potential
[16:32] #knownspace> EML: Larry: have you ever considered blogging?
[16:32] #knownspace> NickE: and a lot of them are
[16:33] #knownspace> Jim: I know one actor who basically quit blogging regularly and started Twitter because it was less of a time sink.
[16:33] #knownspace> NickE: We're setting up a blog for our podcast (The Signal) which will be my first foray
[16:33] #knownspace> NickE: Don't know if I will do much with it, but a lot of folk on our crew both blog and Twitter
[16:34] #knownspace> EML: blog + twitter = blither?
[16:34] CCulpepper has joined #knownspace
[16:34] #knownspace> NickE: wb
[16:34] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Thanks.
[16:34] #knownspace> Jim: blog + twitter = bitter
[16:34] #knownspace> Larry: I fear blogging, and not just as a time sink. How much of my life belongs out there in the ether?
[16:34] #knownspace> NickE: <duct tapes CCulpepper to the channel>
[16:35] #knownspace> CCulpepper: I wish... That is actually what i am using for insulation on my spliced phone cable...
[16:35] #knownspace> NickE: Well quite. Facebook's total assumption of everything on display is worrying. Some folk have zero idea of security
[16:36] #knownspace> EML: Fair question, Larry. Of course you can choose to limit the topics on which you discourse.
[16:36] #knownspace> NickE: The first thing it asks you for is your email *password* FFS! You don't have to give it so it can go find contacts, but the assumption that you should is worrying
[16:37] #knownspace> Larry: What I want in public, goes into my stories sooner or later.
[16:37] #knownspace> NickE: Fair enough
[16:37] #knownspace> Jim: OK
[16:37] #knownspace> EML: Indeed. I was just curious.
[16:37] #knownspace> NickE: I don't think I've ever posted enought private info to allow identity theft, but you never know
[16:38] #knownspace> EML: Well, you might know (but I don't wish that on you).
[16:38] #knownspace> CCulpepper: I see it as all of the info on social media is poublic anyway, names, addresses, etc
[16:38] #knownspace> NickE: As long as you are sensible, these sort of apps can have their uses, but I am wary
[16:39] #knownspace> NickE: Only if you put that info in and allow it to display to all and sundry. But you have to go into your profile and set it to be private: the default is for everyone to be able to see it!
[16:40] #knownspace> NickE: So I put in the minimum and set it to be readable by me only
[16:40] #knownspace> EML: Add RFID-enabled passports, EZ-pass transponders, and eventually currency to the mix, and it gets *really* scary.
[16:40] #knownspace> NickE: aye
[16:40] #knownspace> CCulpepper: If only you can read it whats the point?
[16:41] #knownspace> NickE: well, I don't fill any of the non esentials in like address anyway, but my email stays private. Folk who know me will have it anyway
[16:42] #knownspace> CCulpepper: ah, I see.
[16:42] #knownspace> NickE: but you have to provide your email address to get the account, so that is in the profile: that I make readable only by me
[16:42] #knownspace> CCulpepper: I see now.
[16:44] #knownspace> NickE: If someone wants to contact me via FAcebook, it sends a notification to my email. I keep my "friends" list short so it doesnt happen much
[16:45] #knownspace> NickE: Glad to see these type of vacuous sites not appearig in KS
[16:45] #knownspace> Jim: they exist in KS, Larry simply has not written a story about them
[16:46] #knownspace> NickE: Though obviously some networking goes on
[16:46] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Well with transfer booths, what is the point of social media when you can meet then quickly?
[16:46] #knownspace> NickE: and by the time of KS, they should have evolved into something actually useful of course :-)
[16:46] #knownspace> NickE: Fair point
[16:47] #knownspace> EML: To me, the key point about Facebook is that many people would rather post to the world than take the time to communicate one-on-one.
[16:47] #knownspace> NickE: This here is a lot more fun
[16:48] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Yes.
[16:48] #knownspace> Larry: In later Known Space, teleport booths cut into networking: you can go there yourself to get a conversation. (Maybe.)
[16:49] #knownspace> Jim: Do teleport booths allow children to roam free?
[16:50] #knownspace> NickE: That would make sense. Flash crowds established (and of course now organised IRL via Facebook) so why not discussion groups etc
[16:50] #knownspace> CCulpepper: What do transfer booths use to transfer things? Pipes, Electrical impulses?
[16:50] #knownspace> Jim: They could get into trouble (perverts, et al.)
[16:50] #knownspace> rimworlder: there's got to be parental controls, lol
[16:50] #knownspace> EML: Booths have v-chips, I'm guessing.
[16:51] #knownspace> NickE: Plus, booths not actually free in Louis Wu's time at least
[16:51] #knownspace> NickE: Cost equivalent to texting
[16:51] #knownspace> Jim: sexting
[16:51] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Texting is expensive without unlimited!
[16:51] #knownspace> NickE: But then you'd have contract accounts with 300 free jumps per month or whatever
[16:53] #knownspace> NickE: I'm guessing the advent of auto docs would reduce paedophilia in muc the same way as paranoia or schizophrenia if treatable chemically
[16:54] #knownspace> Jim: Pedophilia is a character flaw, not a mental illness.
[16:54] #knownspace> NickE: There's always nasty types, but the incidence should rduce to a minimum hoepfully
[16:54] #knownspace> EML: there are many reasons to limit the roaming of children. you might not want little kids to go unattended to, say, a beach.
[16:55] #knownspace> NickE: absolutely
[16:55] #knownspace> CCulpepper: You could put a fingerprint reader on the keys.
[16:56] #knownspace> EML: authentication is, surely, part of the mechanism.
[16:56] #knownspace> Jim: and an AI that will tell children to get lost
[16:56] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Or not to..
[16:56] #knownspace> NickE: character flaw in some possibly, but surely an illness in many cases
[16:56] #knownspace> Larry: Kids might get GPS implants. Adults get the choice to take them out.
[16:57] #knownspace> NickE: yes, kiddy trackers, built in sfaety features, limits etc
[16:57] #knownspace> EML: sounding rather totalitarian ...
[16:58] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Well with the way the US is going...
[16:58] #knownspace> NickE: well, the ARM does have a huge amount of control
[16:58] #knownspace> NickE: and the UK for that matter
[16:58] #knownspace> NickE: scary shit
[16:58] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Def. is.
[16:59] #knownspace> EML: the UK is far more contolled than the US. All those cameras. No written constitution.
[16:59] #knownspace> Jim: tell than to an UK citizen
[17:00] #knownspace> NickE: The restrictions of living as a Flatlander in Bey or LWs time would probably seem drastic to us
[17:00] #knownspace> EML: No wonder the non-flatphobes headed for the stars.
[17:00] #knownspace> NickE: aye
[17:00] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Yes, or the belt, or the moon.
[17:00] #knownspace> Larry: For KS I've assumed we'll grow more totalitarian. More freedoms otherwise point to a rising death rate. Was I right?
[17:01] #knownspace> Jim: yes
[17:01] #knownspace> NickE: In this case, I hope not in the long term
[17:01] #knownspace> EML: Larry: I hope your'e wrong. But the jury is still out.
[17:01] #knownspace> NickE: but it seems to be going that way sadly
[17:01] #knownspace> CCulpepper: At least the belt sounds alright.
[17:01] #knownspace> NickE: at the moment
[17:02] #knownspace> Larry: I hold with Ray Bradbury: you don't get 1984 if you've got access to the Moon and asteroids.
[17:03] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Makes sense.
[17:03] #knownspace> NickE: Oh I hope so
[17:03] #knownspace> Larry: Happy New Year, folk. It's lunchtime.
[17:03] #knownspace> NickE: I hope the current trend is temporary
[17:03] #knownspace> CCulpepper: From what ive read of 1984, it would be a bad thing.
[17:03] #knownspace> Jim: yes, at least for those who go to the Moon and asteroids
[17:03] #knownspace> NickE: HNY Larry, thanks for dropping in
[17:03] #knownspace> EML: alas, I don't see people leaving LEO any time soon.
[17:04] #knownspace> Jim: Happy New Year, and goodbye Larry
[17:04] #knownspace> EML: Bye, Larry.
[17:04] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Bye.
[17:04] #knownspace> Jim: EML: When do you expect people to leave LEO?
[17:04] #knownspace> CCulpepper: LEO?
[17:05] #knownspace> NickE: low earth orbit
[17:05] #knownspace> Jim: Low Earth Orbit
[17:05] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Ah.
[17:05] #knownspace> NickE: yeah, we have a way to go
[17:05] #knownspace> EML: Not that I have inside information, just reading the NASA budget tea leaves, I'll guess 2025 at the earliest.
[17:05] #knownspace> EML: Nick: way to go? Ha!
[17:05] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Hey! That sounds like i could ge into that..
[17:06] #knownspace> NickE: It's funny: I got the Haynes Manual for Apollo 11 for Christmas and they refer to leaving LEO as heading for deep space (the Moon)
[17:06] #knownspace> NickE: wish I did have a way to go :-)
[17:06] #knownspace> NickE: I'd share
[17:07] #knownspace> EML: My next solo novel is near-future space colonization. I hope I'm right about it ...
[17:07] #knownspace> NickE: cool
[17:07] #knownspace> CCulpepper: My guess is that it will be a private organization that actually gets us working on it, like with the human genome project.
[17:07] #knownspace> Jim: me too
[17:08] #knownspace> EML: if so, a very WEALTHY private organization
[17:08] #knownspace> NickE: aye, private ventures are at a very early stage yet, but it is actually happening which I find very encouraging
[17:08] #knownspace> CCulpepper: But they would get it back on top of a massive amount of profit.
[17:09] #knownspace> EML: two big issues: time value of money and getting the upfront funds.
[17:09] #knownspace> NickE: ah, you had to go spoil it :-/
[17:09] #knownspace> CCulpepper: But with the ecomomy... No they would have to use gold.
[17:10] #knownspace> NickE: timing seems to be important
[17:10] #knownspace> EML: I have an MBA, among my many flaws. I think about economic systems, not just what phytsics says is doable.
[17:10] #knownspace> NickE: I ust hope we (humans) can stay wealty enough to be able to afford it
[17:11] #knownspace> NickE: in time to benefit
[17:11] #knownspace> Jim: EML: what do you think of Austrian school?
[17:11] #knownspace> CCulpepper: If we stop spreading wealth the US could do it.
[17:11] #knownspace> EML: the Austrian school? of economics?
[17:11] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Hey! My history teacher talks about the austrian school!
[17:12] #knownspace> Jim: EML: yes, the Austrian school of economics
[17:13] #knownspace> EML: I'm not an economist. I remember there is an Austrian school, but now how it defines itself. My own leanings are toward free enterprise and the Chicago school.
[17:14] #knownspace> EML: (pesky fat fingers) but NOT how ...
[17:14] #knownspace> CCulpepper: see what?
[17:14] #knownspace> CCulpepper: sorry wrong window..
[17:15] #knownspace> EML: one possible explanation for the Fermi paradox is: no one has found a way to make interstellar travel (or comm) pay.
[17:16] #knownspace> Jim: EML: Libertarian economists tend to belong to either the Austrian or Chicago school (Milton Friedman). Austrians tend to be gold bugs, whereas Chicago types tend towards well managed fiat monies.
[17:17] #knownspace> CCulpepper: You could use interstellar travel to "dispose" of unwanted people.
[17:17] #knownspace> Jim: EML: I agree about making interstellar travel pay.
[17:17] #knownspace> Jim: CCulpepper: ST-TOS Space Seed
[17:17] #knownspace> EML: Jim: thanks. Yup, I'm a Chicagoan. Literraly. I grew up there, and my MBA is from the U. of Chicago. Never met Freidman, though.
[17:18] #knownspace> Jim: EML, yup I am a gold bug.
[17:18] #knownspace> EML: space is BIG. interstellar travel to dispense with excess population? I don't see it.
[17:19] #knownspace> Jim: Space is good place to put Khan Singh.
[17:19] #knownspace> CCulpepper: It could be a government project to remove enemies, or not.
[17:20] #knownspace> EML: but space CAN be an outlet for the dissatisfied and rebels. Give the troublemakers somewhere to go, and the rest will be docile.
[17:21] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Yes but then the trouble makers may throw rocks.
[17:21] #knownspace> Jim: EML: there was a Poul Anderson story about space being the place where rebels against the universal state go to be free
[17:22] #knownspace> EML: Jim: I think it's a common theme in fiction (and history).
[17:22] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Like australia?
[17:23] #knownspace> EML: CC: more, the North American colonies.
[17:23] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Ah.
[17:24] #knownspace> EML: I'm going to head off soon for dinner. HNY, all.
[17:24] #knownspace> NickE: bye Ed
[17:24] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Bye
[17:24] #knownspace> Jim: yes happy new year
[17:32] #knownspace> Jim: I gotta do also.
[17:32] #knownspace> Jim: bye
[17:32] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Bye, Happy New Year!
[17:33] #knownspace> rimworlder: later
[17:47] #knownspace> CCulpepper: I have to go too.
[17:54] #knownspace> NickE: and the exodus continues. This was a lot of fun. Thannx folks
[17:54] #knownspace> NickE: Night
[18:15] #knownspace> Akiraa: Would religious wars of the future be fought against trans-humanists?
[18:16] #knownspace> Akiraa: "The most dangerous idea" by Francis Fukuyama
[21:04] CCulpepper has joined #knownspace
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[22:07] #knownspace> Cubesforsythe: Well hello known spacers
[22:08] #knownspace> CCulpepper: hi
[22:08] #knownspace> Cubesforsythe: Did Larry and/or EML drop in today?
[22:08] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Both
[22:11] #knownspace> Cubesforsythe: Did they discuss Destroyer at all? Or KS in general?
[22:11] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Both i believe.
[22:16] #knownspace> Cubesforsythe: Awesome. I guess I'll have to catch up on those later on. Happy new year everyone.
[22:34] #knownspace> Lensman: Anyone still here?
[22:36] CCulpepper has joined #knownspace
[22:36] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Hey is anybody on?
[23:03] Louis_Wu has joined #knownspace
[23:14] Unclenasty has joined #knownspace
[23:14] #knownspace> Unclenasty: morning all
[23:47] #knownspace> Lensman: Morning