Saturday, 3 July, 2010 - 12:00am
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[12:49] #knownspace> NickE: afk for now
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[13:40] #knownspace> oldmill: hi, guys. I finished rereading Neutron star after i read Juggler of worlds and I like different viewpoints of the stories. I wonder about some of the ship's names: Why was Elephant's ship called Slower than infinity?
[13:44] #knownspace> oldmill: Does anyone have any ideas? I also wonder about Achilles's ship Remembrance and Gamboler, who belonged to Nessus, I think.
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[14:38] #knownspace> Dan: OK, at least I remembered that the is Chat Saturday!
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[14:47] #knownspace> Dan: Hello!
[14:48] #knownspace> oldmill: hi
[14:49] #knownspace> Dan: Nice to see another early bird.
[14:49] #knownspace> oldmill: not very early here
[14:50] #knownspace> Dan: Well, we're both here well before the official start of the chat time.
[14:50] #knownspace> Dan: :)
[14:51] #knownspace> oldmill: yes, I get it. It's 9 pm here
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[14:51] #knownspace> charel: hi, everybody
[14:51] #knownspace> Dan: We may well be the only people to show up. Ah! Another vistim!
[14:51] #knownspace> Dan: Hello, charel.
[14:52] #knownspace> charel: hello, dan
[14:52] #knownspace> Dan: I'd better get out the duct tape, LOL!
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[15:03] #knownspace> Dan: Hello, dmac.
[15:03] #knownspace> dmac44: Happy 4th!
[15:04] #knownspace> Dan: LOL! It's only the 3rd here.
[15:04] #knownspace> oldmill: how many people are usually here?
[15:04] #knownspace> Dan: Usually?
[15:04] #knownspace> dmac44: well it's the 3rd here too but I was drawing upon a writer's poetic license.
[15:05] #knownspace> Dan: From 5 to 30, depending on who has the time to spare.
[15:05] #knownspace> dmac44: not that I'm a writer
[15:05] #knownspace> Dan: Don't worry, dmac. I am, & I'll grant your liscense. :)
[15:06] #knownspace> Dan: Writer, but obviously a poor speller. LOL!
[15:06] #knownspace> dmac44: A really poor speller. :) is there a topic yet?
[15:06] #knownspace> Dan: Thank goodness for word processors with spellcheck!
[15:07] #knownspace> Dan: Not really a topic, but pick one and we'll try to run with it!
[15:07] #knownspace> dmac44: unfortunately these java clients don't have them
[15:07] #knownspace> Dan: I us mIRC for chat, and it doesn't have a spellcheck either.
[15:07] #knownspace> Dan: use
[15:08] #knownspace> oldmill: I have some questions about ships' names - I finished reading Neutron star. Why was Elephant's ship called Slower than infinitz? Any ideas?
[15:08] #knownspace> Dan: OK, I'm officially blaming my typos on the beer. Maybe I ought to open one just to stay honest. :)
[15:08] #knownspace> Dan: Good question.
[15:09] #knownspace> oldmill: do you have a good answer?
[15:09] #knownspace> Dan: Maybe that was a comment on Type 1 hyperdrive speeds of 3 light years per day as a maximum speed.
[15:10] #knownspace> dmac44: which brings up the question of why there are no micro brews in KS?
[15:10] #knownspace> Dan: The Type 2 hyperdrive did a light year in 5/4ths of a minute, no one has ever defined what a type 3 hyperdrive could do, since Larry hasn't invented a T3 drive yet.
[15:11] #knownspace> oldmill: Type 2 was the Lond Shot?
[15:11] #knownspace> Dan: Indeed! You'd think that every inhabited planet would have a vast array of local beers.
[15:11] #knownspace> Dan: Yep, the Long Shot is the only T2 drive that I recall.
[15:12] #knownspace> dmac44: hyperspace is strange. I've been trying to compile the various references. If you take his first story The World of Patvvs as part of KS then there is another one
[15:12] #knownspace> dmac44: but you've got to be going close to the speed of light and the jump is instantenous
[15:13] #knownspace> dmac44: sorta like hyperwave
[15:13] #knownspace> Dan: Yeah, that's the Slaver hyperdrive. I think Larry is on record as saying that it uses a different principle of physics to work.
[15:14] #knownspace> dmac44: so there are two different methods of hyperdrive in KS (assuming I & II are variations of each other)?
[15:14] #knownspace> Dan: It reminds me of the "tunnel diode effect" that Star Trek *didn't* use for it's transporter tech.
[15:15] #knownspace> oldmill: So Slower than Infinity kind of means that it's slow?
[15:15] #knownspace> Dan: 1 & 2 are the same principle, but different energy levels.
[15:16] #knownspace> dmac44: I recall that Carlos Wu speculated that there were higher levels of hyperspace above I (in The Borderland of Sol)
[15:16] #knownspace> Dan: I *think* that in this case it means that "anything less than instantly being where you want to go" is slow.
[15:16] #knownspace> Dan: Yeah, I remember that, too. I think you're onto something.
[15:18] #knownspace> oldmill: ok, thanx
[15:18] #knownspace> Dan: In "Borderland..." Carlos muses that the vanished hyperdrive shunt took off at a higher level of drive speed than the motor could manade under normal circumstances.
[15:18] #knownspace> Dan: manage
[15:19] #knownspace> Dan: I wonder what speed a T3 hyperdrive could manage? T1 is 3 LY per day, T2 is 1 LY in 5 4ths of a minute...
[15:20] #knownspace> dmac44: only good for intergalactic travel
[15:21] #knownspace> Dan: I'm thinking that T3 might be in the "multiple LY per second" range.
[15:21] #knownspace> dmac44: probably not too many of those hyperspace beasties between the galaxies
[15:21] #knownspace> oldmill: yes, too many singularities within a galaxy
[15:22] #knownspace> dmac44: so why would a hyperspace pulse bounce off a singularity but hyperwave ships can travel into them (if they don't mind the risk of being eaten)?
[15:22] #knownspace> Dan: Singularities make me nervous, LOL!
[15:24] #knownspace> Dan: I think it has to do with a theoretical "boundry layer" of gravitational attraction. Sort of like the refrraction index between air and water.
[15:24] #knownspace> dmac44: that's reasonable
[15:26] #knownspace> oldmill: I like to find hidden meanings in ships' names. What about Remembrance and Gamboler??? What do you think about those?
[15:26] #knownspace> Dan: There seems to be a point where gravity is strong enough to reflect a hyperwave pulse as well as kick a ship out of hyperdrive. (Whether the ship is shredded or not depends on the story needs.)
[15:26] #knownspace> Dan: Gamboler means Dancer, loosely translated from the French.
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[15:27] #knownspace> Dan: Hiya, Nick!
[15:27] #knownspace> NickE: yo Danster!
[15:27] #knownspace> NickE: Hi Sean
[15:27] #knownspace> NickE: and everyone
[15:27] #knownspace> dmac44: Hi Nick
[15:27] #knownspace> Dan: Remembrance is a harder fan-reference than I can manage.
[15:27] #knownspace> dmac44: which story did rememberance come from?
[15:29] #knownspace> oldmill: Remembrance was Achilles's ship in FOW
[15:29] #knownspace> oldmill: I read it befor Neutron star
[15:29] #knownspace> oldmill: Gamboler was Nessus's I think
[15:30] #knownspace> dmac44: good question, I don't have any idea
[15:31] #knownspace> Dan: Maybe Larry & Ed will visit and give an answer.
[15:32] #knownspace> oldmill: Does Achilles want to remember (for example Hearth) or does he want to be remembered?
[15:33] #knownspace> Dan: Good question. I haven't the foggiest idea. I haven't read the "of Worlds" books often enough to be able to judge.
[15:34] #knownspace> Dan: Yet, anyway! I'll re-read them more often in the future.
[15:35] #knownspace> oldmill: sorry, it comes from JOW. I liked the different viewpoint of the stories.
[15:35] #knownspace> Dan: I've been re-reading "Ringworld" several times a year since 1976, but that's just because that's the year I discovered Larry's work.
[15:36] #knownspace> oldmill: do you read anything else? :-)
[15:36] #knownspace> Dan: That was my first year of college and the college bookstore had a sizable selection of Niven paperbacks.
[15:37] #knownspace> Dan: Well, I read a lot less than I used to, but before I started writing I was able to read "Dune" between breakfast and bedtime.
[15:38] #knownspace> dmac44: I read Ringworld 39 years ago just after it came out. I was junior in college and blew off classes for a whole day to read it.
[15:38] #knownspace> Dan: '74?
[15:38] #knownspace> dmac44: '71
[15:38] #knownspace> Dan: No, '70.
[15:38] #knownspace> Dan: I sit corrected, LOL!
[15:39] #knownspace> dmac44: it came out in oct. 70, I read it in the spring of '71
[15:39] #knownspace> Dan: 1970 I was in my last year of Junior High School.
[15:40] #knownspace> NickE: didn't find Niven until the late 70s (was 6 in 1970)
[15:40] #knownspace> dmac44: I had read Neutron Star and A Gift From Earth before Ringworld. I was excited to find another book set in the same universe.
[15:40] #knownspace> Dan: College for me was Jan. '76 until I ran out of money in the Summer of '78.
[15:41] #knownspace> dmac44: long ago and far away :)
[15:41] #knownspace> NickE: Took me ages to find out that it was Niven who wrote these stories that I'd read in books from teh library while on holiday :-)
[15:41] #knownspace> NickE: Rammer was teh first one that really stuck with me
[15:42] #knownspace> NickE: Then found AWOOT the fllowing year or year after and it was like Shit! this is the same dude!
[15:43] #knownspace> NickE: (sorry bout typing, bit as the newt on Pimms :-)
[15:43] #knownspace> oldmill: I like Sigmund very much. Is he a fully developed character only in JOW or in other stories as well? In Neutron star and so on, he is just a cop making trouble, isn't he?
[15:43] #knownspace> NickE: Hmm. 76, yeah that would be about when I first read Rammer
[15:45] #knownspace> Dan: Oddly enough, it was "All the Myriad Ways" & "For A Foggy Night" that shaped my view of the multiverse that I use so much in my own stories.
[15:45] #knownspace> dmac44: so you don't live near fog?
[15:46] #knownspace> Dan: I'm a firm believer in multiple time lines being easy to cross without machines, yes. :)
[15:46] #knownspace> dmac44: watch those beers then :)
[15:46] #knownspace> Dan: LOL!
[15:48] #knownspace> Dan: "Altered States" is just not the same sort of thing. Although I've given up controlled substances because I happen to enjoy the timeline I live in now. :)
[15:48] #knownspace> dmac44: LOL
[15:50] #knownspace> NickE: heh
[15:50] #knownspace> Dan: One day I'll write an autobiography, to be published after I shuffle off this mortal coil, and explain just why everyone ought to consider me a crackpot nutcase. LOL!
[15:51] #knownspace> NickE: :-)
[15:51] #knownspace> Dan: But sufice it to say that my life has proved, to me at least, that multiple timelines are real, and easy to cross.
[15:52] #knownspace> Dan: Ever lose somthing that turned up again in a place that you know you'd already searched?
[15:54] #knownspace> NickE: yep
[15:54] #knownspace> NickE: hes got a point
[15:55] #knownspace> dmac44: how will someone know you've shuffled off this mortal coil and not just transversed into a parallel world?
[15:56] #knownspace> Dan: I wish I could explain the physics involved, but I believe that each of us crosses timelines every moment of our lives. The thing that no one considers is that one timeline might differ from another by only the spin of a single subatomic particle in one universe being reversed from that of another you just walked out of.
[15:57] #knownspace> dmac44: I recall one of the quantum theories says something like that.
[15:59] #knownspace> Dan: They won't. That's the thing. I should have died uncountable times already, from trivial to quite serious circumstances. Somehow I continue, but in better circumstances that I did before. I admit that believing this makes me sound like a raving lunatic. So be it!
[15:59] #knownspace> dmac44: we all have our quirks. :)
[15:59] #knownspace> Dan: that=than
[16:00] #knownspace> Dan: "We all have our own little quarks" as L. Neil Smith quipped in one of his novels. LOL!
[16:02] #knownspace> Dan: Anyway, I've revealed my deepest, darkest secret. Now you'll think I'm a whackjob. Oh well, can't dance so I might as well enjoy the music.
[16:04] #knownspace> dmac44: anything more to say about hyperspace?
[16:05] #knownspace> Dan: Hyperspace would be a neat place to build a library!
[16:05] #knownspace> dmac44: why is that?
[16:06] #knownspace> oldmill: Is there a hypospace?
[16:06] #knownspace> Dan: Much more room to build bookcases!
[16:07] #knownspace> dmac44: so build them out of dark matter?
[16:07] #knownspace> Dan: Actyally, FTL travel should occur in hypospace/subspace. "Hyper"space implies that it is *larger& than normal space.
[16:07] #knownspace> dmac44: Good point.
[16:08] #knownspace> dmac44: I think Tunesmith said in Ringworld's Children that there a one-to-one correspondence between hyperspace and normal space but that distances were shorter in hyperspace.
[16:09] #knownspace> Dan: So *hyper*space travel should take longer than travel in normal space, while going through *hypo*space shouls be faster.
[16:10] #knownspace> Dan: I think that calling subspace by the label of "hyperspace" is a convention that we inherited from writers of yore.
[16:10] #knownspace> dmac44: sounds right
[16:11] #knownspace> dmac44: from JOW it the amount of energy it takes to keep something in hyperspace is a function of mass and volume (to keep a bit of normal space around the ship)
[16:13] #knownspace> oldmill: quite a confusion of terms then
[16:13] #knownspace> Dan: Probably there is a one-to-one corespondence between subspace, normal space, and hyperspace. Subspace should be smaller, and hyperspace should be larger than normal space. But we've gotten used to writers using "sub" & "hyper" to mean the same thing.
[16:14] #knownspace> Dan: I think that's caused by "hyper" also meaning "more grand & impressive" like "super" does.
[16:17] #knownspace> Dan: As a side-effect of being a Dr. Who fan I long ago explored the ideas of "how do you get there from here" using what physics & quantam theory that I can understand without being able to comprehend advanced maths.
[16:18] #knownspace> Dan: Or spelling, obviously, LOL!
[16:18] #knownspace> dmac44: DAn: and what have you concluded?
[16:18] #knownspace> Dan: Well, take the cardboard cylinder from a roll of paper towels.
[16:19] #knownspace> dmac44: and then?
[16:19] #knownspace> Dan: The surface of the cylinder represents normal space, curved by gravitationall attraction of the mass of the universe.
[16:20] #knownspace> Dan: The empty core of the cylinder represents subspace.
[16:20] #knownspace> dmac44: and the distance between two points is shorter if you can go through the middle of the cylinder
[16:20] #knownspace> Dan: Exactly!
[16:22] #knownspace> Dan: So hyperspace. or more accurately "superspace" is everything outside the surface of the cylinder. Bigger than what we perceive as normal space.
[16:23] #knownspace> Dan: So you can have hyperspace used for ginormous archecture, while hypospace is great for traveling somewhere really fast.
[16:24] #knownspace> dmac44: reasonable
[16:25] #knownspace> oldmill: Does subspace have subspace?
[16:25] #knownspace> Dan: Word of warning, I'm just a SF writer, not a physicist. What I understand of the real universe is tempered by my inability to comprehend maths.
[16:26] #knownspace> oldmill: maths is art too, not really science :-)
[16:26] #knownspace> Dan: Oldmill, I have no idea, but it wouldn't surprise me to discover that realith is like a pearl or an onion, with infinite layers inside as well as outside what we percieve as normal space.
[16:27] #knownspace> Dan: reality
[16:28] #knownspace> Dan: It wouldn't surprize me to find out that the different "layers" are only seperated by different energy states.
[16:28] #knownspace> Dan: Sort of like the way an electron can jump energy shells in an atom by gaining or losing energy.
[16:30] #knownspace> oldmill: anyway, are ther any other stories about Sigmund as a fully developed character (apart from JOW)?
[16:31] #knownspace> Dan: No, Siggy was always a supporting character in Larry's solo stories.
[16:31] #knownspace> Dan: I was glad to see him get more development in the "Juggler..."
[16:32] #knownspace> oldmill: yes, I loved it. is he in the Destroyer too? I haven't read that yet
[16:33] #knownspace> Dan: I haven't seen "Destroyer..." yet. But then I can only afford to buy them once they are released in paperback.
[16:35] #knownspace> oldmill: What about Feather? Did she date Sigmund in Ghost or was it developed only in Juggler?
[16:35] #knownspace> Dan: Only in "Juggler..."
[16:36] #knownspace> Dan: Feather was only a supporting character before that, and then only in the "Crashlander" collection of Bey Shaffer stories. Never saw her before that.
[16:37] #knownspace> oldmill: Why is her nickname Feather? Is there a story behind it?
[16:38] #knownspace> Dan: That one I don't know.
[16:39] #knownspace> Dan: Maybe Larry & Ed will say why in an upcoming story.
[16:41] #knownspace> Dan: So, what's been your favorite Niven story so far?
[16:44] #knownspace> oldmill: I started with Ringworld and I liked it and once I got to know the universe I liked all stories because they develop all the ideas, characters storylines
[16:45] #knownspace> oldmill: I guess Bey's short stories are the best, however
[16:45] #knownspace> oldmill: I also liked FOW because of the new view of puppeteers
[16:45] #knownspace> oldmill: wchich one do you like the best?
[16:45] #knownspace> Dan: Anything with Louis!
[16:45] #knownspace> Dan: LOL!
[16:46] #knownspace> Dan: Which is why I didn't enjoy the Ringworld sequils that focused on other characters as much as I did the original.
[16:47] #knownspace> Dan: But then, "Ringworld" was my first Niven story. So that reveals a bit more of my psychology. :)
[16:48] #knownspace> oldmill: the sequels are rarely as good as the first book
[16:49] #knownspace> Dan: There are very few Niven novels I didn't enjoy, but there are a few I won't re-read any time soon.
[16:50] #knownspace> oldmill: it's kind of getting late here, what was the official chat time, I guess the official chat is just us?
[16:51] #knownspace> Dan: Chat was supposed to start two hours ago, but since it is a holiday here in the US I suppose that it's just us.
[16:52] #knownspace> Dan: And I can't set off any fireworks until tomorrow night! LOL!
[16:54] #knownspace> Dan: I inherited a huge assortment of fireworks from my ex-son-in-law. I went through a fistfull of them on New Years, and need to go through the rest before they draw damp & fizzle out.
[16:55] #knownspace> oldmill: is it the independence day?
[16:56] #knownspace> Xenovalent: Tomorrow is Independence Day
[16:56] #knownspace> Dan: Yes. Tomorrow night is the traditional time for fireworks displays.
[16:56] #knownspace> Xenovalent: Oh, and Hi, I decided to pay attention to my computer again. :)
[16:56] #knownspace> Dan: Xeno! I hope we haven't bored you to tears.
[16:56] #knownspace> oldmill: happy independence then
[16:57] #knownspace> Xenovalent: Nope...Would be nice if there more people here, though
[16:57] #knownspace> Dan: I'm torn as to ZJuly 4th. I'm American, but Cherokee, and my wife is British.
[16:58] #knownspace> Dan: But I love setting off fireworks!
[16:59] #knownspace> Dan: But I'd dearly love to declare *financial* independence and retire from the factory where I've been working for the last 34 years.
[16:59] #knownspace> Dan: :)
[17:00] #knownspace> Xenovalent: That's a long time to work in a factory
[17:00] #knownspace> Xenovalent: I think I would have have gone crazy by now
[17:01] #knownspace> Dan: Who say that I haven't? LOL!
[17:01] #knownspace> Xenovalent: For all I know, you might have started that way!
[17:01] #knownspace> Xenovalent: "You don't have to be crazy to work here...but it certainly helps"
[17:02] #knownspace> Dan: But I was crazy before I started working there, so that's a moot point. :)
[17:04] #knownspace> Dan: Well, no... I wasn't crazy when I started working there, but I was on drugs. I gave up drugs decades ago, so now I *must* be crazy to stay there! LOL!
[17:05] #knownspace> Dan: Actually, except for the mindless tedium, it isn't bad. And the factory does give me boring peroids to think of stories to write.
[17:06] #knownspace> Dan: 12 hours a day, 4 days a week. But there are the 4 day weekends that I enjoy, also.
[17:07] #knownspace> Xenovalent: so that idea you were talking about earlier, about a meta-universe that represented different energy states...
[17:07] #knownspace> Dan: It's like getting a vacation every week!
[17:07] #knownspace> Dan: Yes?
[17:07] #knownspace> Xenovalent: I had a similar idea that I was trying to find some story concepts that would fit into
[17:08] #knownspace> Dan: Hard to do, it is a complex theory that few writers choose to explore in depth.
[17:08] #knownspace> Xenovalent: except mine was Heaven/Hell are really "planes" of existence, and the beings there have have their own "Heaven" ("higher" plane) and "Hell" ("lower" plane)
[17:08] #knownspace> Xenovalent: Never really went anywhere with it...feel free to use it if you can get something out of it.
[17:09] #knownspace> Dan: Generally speaking, they get stalled out on the fact that if anything is possible, then everythin is compulsory.
[17:10] #knownspace> Xenovalent: I was having problems with this: If you went to Hell, what would the demons there consider to be Hell? How much worse than Hell can you get?
[17:10] #knownspace> Dan: Well, I never have been able to write anything like "Inferno" that treats Hell like a real place.
[17:11] #knownspace> Dan: But it seems as if people's popular conception of deamons would all be into BDSM and think that Hell itself was quite boring.
[17:13] #knownspace> Dan: I mean, how much pain and suffering can you think of that has some sort of meaning without knowing the concept of pleasure & joy?
[17:15] #knownspace> Dan: It's like the ultimate BDSM wet dream. Wherein one craves "beat me, beat me" and the ultimate answer to that is always "No, suffer from not being beaten."
[17:16] #knownspace> Xenovalent: ::blink::
[17:16] #knownspace> Xenovalent: Umm...hadn't thought of that one...interesting.
[17:16] #knownspace> Dan: LOL! One of my neighbors is a pshrink for the BDSM community.
[17:16] #knownspace> Xenovalent: (sorry, am also looking at pictures of cats on fark.com)
[17:17] #knownspace> Dan: So I have a bit of insight- Well, as much as one can have as a vanilla.
[17:22] #knownspace> Dan: LOL! I'm too straight for my own good, it seems.
[17:22] #knownspace> dmac44: I've got to go guys, see you next month.
[17:23] #knownspace> Xenovalent: see you then, dmac44!
[17:23] #knownspace> Dan: Goodbye, dmac!
[17:30] #knownspace> Dan: And now, for my next trick, I'll crash the internet and bring about WWIII...
[17:30] #knownspace> Dan: :)
[17:30] #knownspace> Xenovalent: Oh really?
[17:30] #knownspace> Xenovalent: I thought only Level 3 Communications could crash the internet.
[17:31] #knownspace> Dan: Well, no. I'd rather drink beer, write stories, and have fun.
[17:31] #knownspace> Xenovalent: (Far too much internet traffic routes through them, with no backup route)
[17:33] #knownspace> Dan: If Level 3 communications can crash the internet, then nothing I do could possibly rank higher than Level -2, even if I'm downloading every Doctor Who episode since 1963.
[17:34] #knownspace> Xenovalent: A) Level 3 Communications is the name of a company (which sometimes has problems with high-level routers going down that they take hours to fix), and B) you can't download all of Doctor Who, I tried once and it turns out that they lost the films of some of them.
[17:34] #knownspace> Dan: Actually, the only Dr Who eps I need are the last 4 for the current season & the entire season's worth of DW Confidentials. But that's only because I had a hard drive crash Thursday night.
[17:35] #knownspace> oldmill: I'm off to bed, good night
[17:36] #knownspace> Dan: Actually I have every ep of Who that still exists, plus the photosnap reconstructions of the missing eps- up until the last ep I backed up in May.
[17:36] #knownspace> Dan: Goodnight, Oldmill!
[17:38] #knownspace> Dan: I've been a Who fan since the '70s.
[17:39] #knownspace> Xenovalent: I've only been alive since very very late 1977 so I've got a lot of catching up to do!
[17:39] #knownspace> Dan: early as long as I've been a fan of the band Hawkwind.
[17:40] #knownspace> Dan: Nearly as long...
[17:40] #knownspace> Xenovalent: How do you feel about the band Motorhead?
[17:40] #knownspace> Dan: Ah, I was born at roughly the same instant as the Russians launched Sputnick II.
[17:41] #knownspace> Dan: Motorhead is quite good, but I enjoy the synths that Hawkwind uses.
[17:42] #knownspace> Xenovalent: I only heard of Hawkwind because Lemmy was briefly a member and recorded a couple of things with them.
[17:43] #knownspace> Dan: Lemmy was a Hawkwind member for roughly 20 years, as I recall. But I'd be glad to be corrected if I have the timeframe wrong.
[17:44] #knownspace> Xenovalent: 1971-1975 according to Wikipedia
[17:44] #knownspace> Xenovalent: So not as briefly as I thought
[17:44] #knownspace> Xenovalent: But far from 20 years, too!
[17:45] #knownspace> Dan: Hawkwind's 1st album was released in 1969, and Lemmy was fired after being mugged in a parking lot in... Oh, you're right! He formed Motorhead in 1976.
[17:46] #knownspace> Dan: I thought he was axed far later than the event accually occured.
[17:47] #knownspace> Xenovalent: Err..that's completely different from the story on Wikipedia (which has Lemmy fired over getting arrested for drugs at Canadian customs), so can I ask what your source is?
[17:48] #knownspace> Dan: Someone concked him on the head in a parking lot while Hawkwind was on tour in the US, and he got fired because the rest of the band thought he was on drugs (and not sharing) according to an interview with him in a video bio of the band.
[17:49] #knownspace> Dan: Well, in the video, it was Lemmy telling the story of being mugged and his camera stolen at a gas station while the band was on tour. He implied that the band members used it as an excuse to do what they wanted to do beforehand.
[17:50] #knownspace> Dan: Whatever the truth of the matter was, Lemmy does tell the story well.
[17:53] #knownspace> Dan: I wish I could share the torrent link where I got the Hawkwing bio, but it was on the hard drive that crashed Thursday night. Luckily I still have the video backed up.
[17:54] #knownspace> Xenovalent: I'd rather have the music than the bio, TBH
[17:55] #knownspace> Dan: Well, the bio does contain lots of performances of the band, including Stacia dancing. Sometimes she actually wore clothes!
[17:56] #knownspace> Xenovalent: Well, I'm going to wander off in search of dinner. I may be back later on...
[17:56] #knownspace> Xenovalent: It's been nice talking to you
[17:56] #knownspace> Dan: Let's see... I have 56 Hawkwind albums in the music directory on one hard drive in my computer.
[17:58] #knownspace> Dan: I shall await your return. If I'm not here as soon as you reconnect, assume it's because my wife drug me off to bed for immoral purposes. :)
[18:31] #knownspace> Dan: "Lives of great men are reminders/We could make our lives sublime/and in parting leave behind us/Footprints in the sands of time..."
[19:04] ronn has joined #knownspace
[19:05] #knownspace> ronn: testing . . .
[19:05] #knownspace> Dan: Testing suspended due to budget cuts....
[19:05] #knownspace> ronn: Okay, the new address works.
[19:05] #knownspace> Dan: Good!
[19:06] #knownspace> Dan: Glad to see you.
[19:07] #knownspace> Dan: Too bad we solved the world's problems before you got here.
[19:11] #knownspace> ronn: I figured as much. I wanted to check and see if the change from irc.larryniven.org to .net had broken anything.
[19:11] #knownspace> Dan: Not a thing. It seems to be working fine.
[19:11] #knownspace> ronn: (I know it shouldn't, but with computers one can never be sure . . .)
[19:12] #knownspace> Dan: I understand completely.
[19:12] #knownspace> ronn: So, anything exciting happen here earlier?
[19:13] #knownspace> Dan: Using a computer enables one to screw up an unbelieveable speeds.
[19:13] #knownspace> Dan: an=at
[19:13] #knownspace> Dan: Not a lot happened.
[19:14] #knownspace> Dan: We had a discussion on ships speeds in hyperspace, and why "hyperspace" is the fashionable term rather than the more accurate "hypospace" or "subspace."
[19:15] #knownspace> Dan: Some fannish squee on the "...Of Worlds" books.
[19:16] #knownspace> Dan: And my confessing to being a traveler between timelines and the logic, if one could call it that, that supports my crazy claims.
[19:16] #knownspace> Dan: Just an average day.
[19:18] #knownspace> Dan: Neither Larry nor Ed showed up, so we played in the playground and tried not to break the equipment.
[19:19] #knownspace> ronn: Okay. Well, I guess I'll go and try to do something else . . .
[19:19] #knownspace> Dan: OK.
[20:09] Dan has joined #knownspace
[12:47] NickE has joined #knownspace
[12:49] #knownspace> NickE: afk for now
[13:34] oldmill has joined #knownspace
[13:40] #knownspace> oldmill: hi, guys. I finished rereading Neutron star after i read Juggler of worlds and I like different viewpoints of the stories. I wonder about some of the ship's names: Why was Elephant's ship called Slower than infinity?
[13:44] #knownspace> oldmill: Does anyone have any ideas? I also wonder about Achilles's ship Remembrance and Gamboler, who belonged to Nessus, I think.
[14:33] oldmill has joined #knownspace
[14:37] Dan has joined #knownspace
[14:38] #knownspace> Dan: OK, at least I remembered that the is Chat Saturday!
[14:41] oldmill has joined #knownspace
[14:47] oldmill has joined #knownspace
[14:47] #knownspace> Dan: Hello!
[14:48] #knownspace> oldmill: hi
[14:49] #knownspace> Dan: Nice to see another early bird.
[14:49] #knownspace> oldmill: not very early here
[14:50] #knownspace> Dan: Well, we're both here well before the official start of the chat time.
[14:50] #knownspace> Dan: :)
[14:51] #knownspace> oldmill: yes, I get it. It's 9 pm here
[14:51] charel has joined #knownspace
[14:51] #knownspace> charel: hi, everybody
[14:51] #knownspace> Dan: We may well be the only people to show up. Ah! Another vistim!
[14:51] #knownspace> Dan: Hello, charel.
[14:52] #knownspace> charel: hello, dan
[14:52] #knownspace> Dan: I'd better get out the duct tape, LOL!
[15:03] dmac44 has joined #knownspace
[15:03] #knownspace> Dan: Hello, dmac.
[15:03] #knownspace> dmac44: Happy 4th!
[15:04] #knownspace> Dan: LOL! It's only the 3rd here.
[15:04] #knownspace> oldmill: how many people are usually here?
[15:04] #knownspace> Dan: Usually?
[15:04] #knownspace> dmac44: well it's the 3rd here too but I was drawing upon a writer's poetic license.
[15:05] #knownspace> Dan: From 5 to 30, depending on who has the time to spare.
[15:05] #knownspace> dmac44: not that I'm a writer
[15:05] #knownspace> Dan: Don't worry, dmac. I am, & I'll grant your liscense. :)
[15:06] #knownspace> Dan: Writer, but obviously a poor speller. LOL!
[15:06] #knownspace> dmac44: A really poor speller. :) is there a topic yet?
[15:06] #knownspace> Dan: Thank goodness for word processors with spellcheck!
[15:07] #knownspace> Dan: Not really a topic, but pick one and we'll try to run with it!
[15:07] #knownspace> dmac44: unfortunately these java clients don't have them
[15:07] #knownspace> Dan: I us mIRC for chat, and it doesn't have a spellcheck either.
[15:07] #knownspace> Dan: use
[15:08] #knownspace> oldmill: I have some questions about ships' names - I finished reading Neutron star. Why was Elephant's ship called Slower than infinitz? Any ideas?
[15:08] #knownspace> Dan: OK, I'm officially blaming my typos on the beer. Maybe I ought to open one just to stay honest. :)
[15:08] #knownspace> Dan: Good question.
[15:09] #knownspace> oldmill: do you have a good answer?
[15:09] #knownspace> Dan: Maybe that was a comment on Type 1 hyperdrive speeds of 3 light years per day as a maximum speed.
[15:10] #knownspace> dmac44: which brings up the question of why there are no micro brews in KS?
[15:10] #knownspace> Dan: The Type 2 hyperdrive did a light year in 5/4ths of a minute, no one has ever defined what a type 3 hyperdrive could do, since Larry hasn't invented a T3 drive yet.
[15:11] #knownspace> oldmill: Type 2 was the Lond Shot?
[15:11] #knownspace> Dan: Indeed! You'd think that every inhabited planet would have a vast array of local beers.
[15:11] #knownspace> Dan: Yep, the Long Shot is the only T2 drive that I recall.
[15:12] #knownspace> dmac44: hyperspace is strange. I've been trying to compile the various references. If you take his first story The World of Patvvs as part of KS then there is another one
[15:12] #knownspace> dmac44: but you've got to be going close to the speed of light and the jump is instantenous
[15:13] #knownspace> dmac44: sorta like hyperwave
[15:13] #knownspace> Dan: Yeah, that's the Slaver hyperdrive. I think Larry is on record as saying that it uses a different principle of physics to work.
[15:14] #knownspace> dmac44: so there are two different methods of hyperdrive in KS (assuming I & II are variations of each other)?
[15:14] #knownspace> Dan: It reminds me of the "tunnel diode effect" that Star Trek *didn't* use for it's transporter tech.
[15:15] #knownspace> oldmill: So Slower than Infinity kind of means that it's slow?
[15:15] #knownspace> Dan: 1 & 2 are the same principle, but different energy levels.
[15:16] #knownspace> dmac44: I recall that Carlos Wu speculated that there were higher levels of hyperspace above I (in The Borderland of Sol)
[15:16] #knownspace> Dan: I *think* that in this case it means that "anything less than instantly being where you want to go" is slow.
[15:16] #knownspace> Dan: Yeah, I remember that, too. I think you're onto something.
[15:18] #knownspace> oldmill: ok, thanx
[15:18] #knownspace> Dan: In "Borderland..." Carlos muses that the vanished hyperdrive shunt took off at a higher level of drive speed than the motor could manade under normal circumstances.
[15:18] #knownspace> Dan: manage
[15:19] #knownspace> Dan: I wonder what speed a T3 hyperdrive could manage? T1 is 3 LY per day, T2 is 1 LY in 5 4ths of a minute...
[15:20] #knownspace> dmac44: only good for intergalactic travel
[15:21] #knownspace> Dan: I'm thinking that T3 might be in the "multiple LY per second" range.
[15:21] #knownspace> dmac44: probably not too many of those hyperspace beasties between the galaxies
[15:21] #knownspace> oldmill: yes, too many singularities within a galaxy
[15:22] #knownspace> dmac44: so why would a hyperspace pulse bounce off a singularity but hyperwave ships can travel into them (if they don't mind the risk of being eaten)?
[15:22] #knownspace> Dan: Singularities make me nervous, LOL!
[15:24] #knownspace> Dan: I think it has to do with a theoretical "boundry layer" of gravitational attraction. Sort of like the refrraction index between air and water.
[15:24] #knownspace> dmac44: that's reasonable
[15:26] #knownspace> oldmill: I like to find hidden meanings in ships' names. What about Remembrance and Gamboler??? What do you think about those?
[15:26] #knownspace> Dan: There seems to be a point where gravity is strong enough to reflect a hyperwave pulse as well as kick a ship out of hyperdrive. (Whether the ship is shredded or not depends on the story needs.)
[15:26] #knownspace> Dan: Gamboler means Dancer, loosely translated from the French.
[15:26] NickE has joined #knownspace
[15:27] #knownspace> Dan: Hiya, Nick!
[15:27] #knownspace> NickE: yo Danster!
[15:27] #knownspace> NickE: Hi Sean
[15:27] #knownspace> NickE: and everyone
[15:27] #knownspace> dmac44: Hi Nick
[15:27] #knownspace> Dan: Remembrance is a harder fan-reference than I can manage.
[15:27] #knownspace> dmac44: which story did rememberance come from?
[15:29] #knownspace> oldmill: Remembrance was Achilles's ship in FOW
[15:29] #knownspace> oldmill: I read it befor Neutron star
[15:29] #knownspace> oldmill: Gamboler was Nessus's I think
[15:30] #knownspace> dmac44: good question, I don't have any idea
[15:31] #knownspace> Dan: Maybe Larry & Ed will visit and give an answer.
[15:32] #knownspace> oldmill: Does Achilles want to remember (for example Hearth) or does he want to be remembered?
[15:33] #knownspace> Dan: Good question. I haven't the foggiest idea. I haven't read the "of Worlds" books often enough to be able to judge.
[15:34] #knownspace> Dan: Yet, anyway! I'll re-read them more often in the future.
[15:35] #knownspace> oldmill: sorry, it comes from JOW. I liked the different viewpoint of the stories.
[15:35] #knownspace> Dan: I've been re-reading "Ringworld" several times a year since 1976, but that's just because that's the year I discovered Larry's work.
[15:36] #knownspace> oldmill: do you read anything else? :-)
[15:36] #knownspace> Dan: That was my first year of college and the college bookstore had a sizable selection of Niven paperbacks.
[15:37] #knownspace> Dan: Well, I read a lot less than I used to, but before I started writing I was able to read "Dune" between breakfast and bedtime.
[15:38] #knownspace> dmac44: I read Ringworld 39 years ago just after it came out. I was junior in college and blew off classes for a whole day to read it.
[15:38] #knownspace> Dan: '74?
[15:38] #knownspace> dmac44: '71
[15:38] #knownspace> Dan: No, '70.
[15:38] #knownspace> Dan: I sit corrected, LOL!
[15:39] #knownspace> dmac44: it came out in oct. 70, I read it in the spring of '71
[15:39] #knownspace> Dan: 1970 I was in my last year of Junior High School.
[15:40] #knownspace> NickE: didn't find Niven until the late 70s (was 6 in 1970)
[15:40] #knownspace> dmac44: I had read Neutron Star and A Gift From Earth before Ringworld. I was excited to find another book set in the same universe.
[15:40] #knownspace> Dan: College for me was Jan. '76 until I ran out of money in the Summer of '78.
[15:41] #knownspace> dmac44: long ago and far away :)
[15:41] #knownspace> NickE: Took me ages to find out that it was Niven who wrote these stories that I'd read in books from teh library while on holiday :-)
[15:41] #knownspace> NickE: Rammer was teh first one that really stuck with me
[15:42] #knownspace> NickE: Then found AWOOT the fllowing year or year after and it was like Shit! this is the same dude!
[15:43] #knownspace> NickE: (sorry bout typing, bit as the newt on Pimms :-)
[15:43] #knownspace> oldmill: I like Sigmund very much. Is he a fully developed character only in JOW or in other stories as well? In Neutron star and so on, he is just a cop making trouble, isn't he?
[15:43] #knownspace> NickE: Hmm. 76, yeah that would be about when I first read Rammer
[15:45] #knownspace> Dan: Oddly enough, it was "All the Myriad Ways" & "For A Foggy Night" that shaped my view of the multiverse that I use so much in my own stories.
[15:45] #knownspace> dmac44: so you don't live near fog?
[15:46] #knownspace> Dan: I'm a firm believer in multiple time lines being easy to cross without machines, yes. :)
[15:46] #knownspace> dmac44: watch those beers then :)
[15:46] #knownspace> Dan: LOL!
[15:48] #knownspace> Dan: "Altered States" is just not the same sort of thing. Although I've given up controlled substances because I happen to enjoy the timeline I live in now. :)
[15:48] #knownspace> dmac44: LOL
[15:50] #knownspace> NickE: heh
[15:50] #knownspace> Dan: One day I'll write an autobiography, to be published after I shuffle off this mortal coil, and explain just why everyone ought to consider me a crackpot nutcase. LOL!
[15:51] #knownspace> NickE: :-)
[15:51] #knownspace> Dan: But sufice it to say that my life has proved, to me at least, that multiple timelines are real, and easy to cross.
[15:52] #knownspace> Dan: Ever lose somthing that turned up again in a place that you know you'd already searched?
[15:54] #knownspace> NickE: yep
[15:54] #knownspace> NickE: hes got a point
[15:55] #knownspace> dmac44: how will someone know you've shuffled off this mortal coil and not just transversed into a parallel world?
[15:56] #knownspace> Dan: I wish I could explain the physics involved, but I believe that each of us crosses timelines every moment of our lives. The thing that no one considers is that one timeline might differ from another by only the spin of a single subatomic particle in one universe being reversed from that of another you just walked out of.
[15:57] #knownspace> dmac44: I recall one of the quantum theories says something like that.
[15:59] #knownspace> Dan: They won't. That's the thing. I should have died uncountable times already, from trivial to quite serious circumstances. Somehow I continue, but in better circumstances that I did before. I admit that believing this makes me sound like a raving lunatic. So be it!
[15:59] #knownspace> dmac44: we all have our quirks. :)
[15:59] #knownspace> Dan: that=than
[16:00] #knownspace> Dan: "We all have our own little quarks" as L. Neil Smith quipped in one of his novels. LOL!
[16:02] #knownspace> Dan: Anyway, I've revealed my deepest, darkest secret. Now you'll think I'm a whackjob. Oh well, can't dance so I might as well enjoy the music.
[16:04] #knownspace> dmac44: anything more to say about hyperspace?
[16:05] #knownspace> Dan: Hyperspace would be a neat place to build a library!
[16:05] #knownspace> dmac44: why is that?
[16:06] #knownspace> oldmill: Is there a hypospace?
[16:06] #knownspace> Dan: Much more room to build bookcases!
[16:07] #knownspace> dmac44: so build them out of dark matter?
[16:07] #knownspace> Dan: Actyally, FTL travel should occur in hypospace/subspace. "Hyper"space implies that it is *larger& than normal space.
[16:07] #knownspace> dmac44: Good point.
[16:08] #knownspace> dmac44: I think Tunesmith said in Ringworld's Children that there a one-to-one correspondence between hyperspace and normal space but that distances were shorter in hyperspace.
[16:09] #knownspace> Dan: So *hyper*space travel should take longer than travel in normal space, while going through *hypo*space shouls be faster.
[16:10] #knownspace> Dan: I think that calling subspace by the label of "hyperspace" is a convention that we inherited from writers of yore.
[16:10] #knownspace> dmac44: sounds right
[16:11] #knownspace> dmac44: from JOW it the amount of energy it takes to keep something in hyperspace is a function of mass and volume (to keep a bit of normal space around the ship)
[16:13] #knownspace> oldmill: quite a confusion of terms then
[16:13] #knownspace> Dan: Probably there is a one-to-one corespondence between subspace, normal space, and hyperspace. Subspace should be smaller, and hyperspace should be larger than normal space. But we've gotten used to writers using "sub" & "hyper" to mean the same thing.
[16:14] #knownspace> Dan: I think that's caused by "hyper" also meaning "more grand & impressive" like "super" does.
[16:17] #knownspace> Dan: As a side-effect of being a Dr. Who fan I long ago explored the ideas of "how do you get there from here" using what physics & quantam theory that I can understand without being able to comprehend advanced maths.
[16:18] #knownspace> Dan: Or spelling, obviously, LOL!
[16:18] #knownspace> dmac44: DAn: and what have you concluded?
[16:18] #knownspace> Dan: Well, take the cardboard cylinder from a roll of paper towels.
[16:19] #knownspace> dmac44: and then?
[16:19] #knownspace> Dan: The surface of the cylinder represents normal space, curved by gravitationall attraction of the mass of the universe.
[16:20] #knownspace> Dan: The empty core of the cylinder represents subspace.
[16:20] #knownspace> dmac44: and the distance between two points is shorter if you can go through the middle of the cylinder
[16:20] #knownspace> Dan: Exactly!
[16:22] #knownspace> Dan: So hyperspace. or more accurately "superspace" is everything outside the surface of the cylinder. Bigger than what we perceive as normal space.
[16:23] #knownspace> Dan: So you can have hyperspace used for ginormous archecture, while hypospace is great for traveling somewhere really fast.
[16:24] #knownspace> dmac44: reasonable
[16:25] #knownspace> oldmill: Does subspace have subspace?
[16:25] #knownspace> Dan: Word of warning, I'm just a SF writer, not a physicist. What I understand of the real universe is tempered by my inability to comprehend maths.
[16:26] #knownspace> oldmill: maths is art too, not really science :-)
[16:26] #knownspace> Dan: Oldmill, I have no idea, but it wouldn't surprise me to discover that realith is like a pearl or an onion, with infinite layers inside as well as outside what we percieve as normal space.
[16:27] #knownspace> Dan: reality
[16:28] #knownspace> Dan: It wouldn't surprize me to find out that the different "layers" are only seperated by different energy states.
[16:28] #knownspace> Dan: Sort of like the way an electron can jump energy shells in an atom by gaining or losing energy.
[16:30] #knownspace> oldmill: anyway, are ther any other stories about Sigmund as a fully developed character (apart from JOW)?
[16:31] #knownspace> Dan: No, Siggy was always a supporting character in Larry's solo stories.
[16:31] #knownspace> Dan: I was glad to see him get more development in the "Juggler..."
[16:32] #knownspace> oldmill: yes, I loved it. is he in the Destroyer too? I haven't read that yet
[16:33] #knownspace> Dan: I haven't seen "Destroyer..." yet. But then I can only afford to buy them once they are released in paperback.
[16:35] #knownspace> oldmill: What about Feather? Did she date Sigmund in Ghost or was it developed only in Juggler?
[16:35] #knownspace> Dan: Only in "Juggler..."
[16:36] #knownspace> Dan: Feather was only a supporting character before that, and then only in the "Crashlander" collection of Bey Shaffer stories. Never saw her before that.
[16:37] #knownspace> oldmill: Why is her nickname Feather? Is there a story behind it?
[16:38] #knownspace> Dan: That one I don't know.
[16:39] #knownspace> Dan: Maybe Larry & Ed will say why in an upcoming story.
[16:41] #knownspace> Dan: So, what's been your favorite Niven story so far?
[16:44] #knownspace> oldmill: I started with Ringworld and I liked it and once I got to know the universe I liked all stories because they develop all the ideas, characters storylines
[16:45] #knownspace> oldmill: I guess Bey's short stories are the best, however
[16:45] #knownspace> oldmill: I also liked FOW because of the new view of puppeteers
[16:45] #knownspace> oldmill: wchich one do you like the best?
[16:45] #knownspace> Dan: Anything with Louis!
[16:45] #knownspace> Dan: LOL!
[16:46] #knownspace> Dan: Which is why I didn't enjoy the Ringworld sequils that focused on other characters as much as I did the original.
[16:47] #knownspace> Dan: But then, "Ringworld" was my first Niven story. So that reveals a bit more of my psychology. :)
[16:48] #knownspace> oldmill: the sequels are rarely as good as the first book
[16:49] #knownspace> Dan: There are very few Niven novels I didn't enjoy, but there are a few I won't re-read any time soon.
[16:50] #knownspace> oldmill: it's kind of getting late here, what was the official chat time, I guess the official chat is just us?
[16:51] #knownspace> Dan: Chat was supposed to start two hours ago, but since it is a holiday here in the US I suppose that it's just us.
[16:52] #knownspace> Dan: And I can't set off any fireworks until tomorrow night! LOL!
[16:54] #knownspace> Dan: I inherited a huge assortment of fireworks from my ex-son-in-law. I went through a fistfull of them on New Years, and need to go through the rest before they draw damp & fizzle out.
[16:55] #knownspace> oldmill: is it the independence day?
[16:56] #knownspace> Xenovalent: Tomorrow is Independence Day
[16:56] #knownspace> Dan: Yes. Tomorrow night is the traditional time for fireworks displays.
[16:56] #knownspace> Xenovalent: Oh, and Hi, I decided to pay attention to my computer again. :)
[16:56] #knownspace> Dan: Xeno! I hope we haven't bored you to tears.
[16:56] #knownspace> oldmill: happy independence then
[16:57] #knownspace> Xenovalent: Nope...Would be nice if there more people here, though
[16:57] #knownspace> Dan: I'm torn as to ZJuly 4th. I'm American, but Cherokee, and my wife is British.
[16:58] #knownspace> Dan: But I love setting off fireworks!
[16:59] #knownspace> Dan: But I'd dearly love to declare *financial* independence and retire from the factory where I've been working for the last 34 years.
[16:59] #knownspace> Dan: :)
[17:00] #knownspace> Xenovalent: That's a long time to work in a factory
[17:00] #knownspace> Xenovalent: I think I would have have gone crazy by now
[17:01] #knownspace> Dan: Who say that I haven't? LOL!
[17:01] #knownspace> Xenovalent: For all I know, you might have started that way!
[17:01] #knownspace> Xenovalent: "You don't have to be crazy to work here...but it certainly helps"
[17:02] #knownspace> Dan: But I was crazy before I started working there, so that's a moot point. :)
[17:04] #knownspace> Dan: Well, no... I wasn't crazy when I started working there, but I was on drugs. I gave up drugs decades ago, so now I *must* be crazy to stay there! LOL!
[17:05] #knownspace> Dan: Actually, except for the mindless tedium, it isn't bad. And the factory does give me boring peroids to think of stories to write.
[17:06] #knownspace> Dan: 12 hours a day, 4 days a week. But there are the 4 day weekends that I enjoy, also.
[17:07] #knownspace> Xenovalent: so that idea you were talking about earlier, about a meta-universe that represented different energy states...
[17:07] #knownspace> Dan: It's like getting a vacation every week!
[17:07] #knownspace> Dan: Yes?
[17:07] #knownspace> Xenovalent: I had a similar idea that I was trying to find some story concepts that would fit into
[17:08] #knownspace> Dan: Hard to do, it is a complex theory that few writers choose to explore in depth.
[17:08] #knownspace> Xenovalent: except mine was Heaven/Hell are really "planes" of existence, and the beings there have have their own "Heaven" ("higher" plane) and "Hell" ("lower" plane)
[17:08] #knownspace> Xenovalent: Never really went anywhere with it...feel free to use it if you can get something out of it.
[17:09] #knownspace> Dan: Generally speaking, they get stalled out on the fact that if anything is possible, then everythin is compulsory.
[17:10] #knownspace> Xenovalent: I was having problems with this: If you went to Hell, what would the demons there consider to be Hell? How much worse than Hell can you get?
[17:10] #knownspace> Dan: Well, I never have been able to write anything like "Inferno" that treats Hell like a real place.
[17:11] #knownspace> Dan: But it seems as if people's popular conception of deamons would all be into BDSM and think that Hell itself was quite boring.
[17:13] #knownspace> Dan: I mean, how much pain and suffering can you think of that has some sort of meaning without knowing the concept of pleasure & joy?
[17:15] #knownspace> Dan: It's like the ultimate BDSM wet dream. Wherein one craves "beat me, beat me" and the ultimate answer to that is always "No, suffer from not being beaten."
[17:16] #knownspace> Xenovalent: ::blink::
[17:16] #knownspace> Xenovalent: Umm...hadn't thought of that one...interesting.
[17:16] #knownspace> Dan: LOL! One of my neighbors is a pshrink for the BDSM community.
[17:16] #knownspace> Xenovalent: (sorry, am also looking at pictures of cats on fark.com)
[17:17] #knownspace> Dan: So I have a bit of insight- Well, as much as one can have as a vanilla.
[17:22] #knownspace> Dan: LOL! I'm too straight for my own good, it seems.
[17:22] #knownspace> dmac44: I've got to go guys, see you next month.
[17:23] #knownspace> Xenovalent: see you then, dmac44!
[17:23] #knownspace> Dan: Goodbye, dmac!
[17:30] #knownspace> Dan: And now, for my next trick, I'll crash the internet and bring about WWIII...
[17:30] #knownspace> Dan: :)
[17:30] #knownspace> Xenovalent: Oh really?
[17:30] #knownspace> Xenovalent: I thought only Level 3 Communications could crash the internet.
[17:31] #knownspace> Dan: Well, no. I'd rather drink beer, write stories, and have fun.
[17:31] #knownspace> Xenovalent: (Far too much internet traffic routes through them, with no backup route)
[17:33] #knownspace> Dan: If Level 3 communications can crash the internet, then nothing I do could possibly rank higher than Level -2, even if I'm downloading every Doctor Who episode since 1963.
[17:34] #knownspace> Xenovalent: A) Level 3 Communications is the name of a company (which sometimes has problems with high-level routers going down that they take hours to fix), and B) you can't download all of Doctor Who, I tried once and it turns out that they lost the films of some of them.
[17:34] #knownspace> Dan: Actually, the only Dr Who eps I need are the last 4 for the current season & the entire season's worth of DW Confidentials. But that's only because I had a hard drive crash Thursday night.
[17:35] #knownspace> oldmill: I'm off to bed, good night
[17:36] #knownspace> Dan: Actually I have every ep of Who that still exists, plus the photosnap reconstructions of the missing eps- up until the last ep I backed up in May.
[17:36] #knownspace> Dan: Goodnight, Oldmill!
[17:38] #knownspace> Dan: I've been a Who fan since the '70s.
[17:39] #knownspace> Xenovalent: I've only been alive since very very late 1977 so I've got a lot of catching up to do!
[17:39] #knownspace> Dan: early as long as I've been a fan of the band Hawkwind.
[17:40] #knownspace> Dan: Nearly as long...
[17:40] #knownspace> Xenovalent: How do you feel about the band Motorhead?
[17:40] #knownspace> Dan: Ah, I was born at roughly the same instant as the Russians launched Sputnick II.
[17:41] #knownspace> Dan: Motorhead is quite good, but I enjoy the synths that Hawkwind uses.
[17:42] #knownspace> Xenovalent: I only heard of Hawkwind because Lemmy was briefly a member and recorded a couple of things with them.
[17:43] #knownspace> Dan: Lemmy was a Hawkwind member for roughly 20 years, as I recall. But I'd be glad to be corrected if I have the timeframe wrong.
[17:44] #knownspace> Xenovalent: 1971-1975 according to Wikipedia
[17:44] #knownspace> Xenovalent: So not as briefly as I thought
[17:44] #knownspace> Xenovalent: But far from 20 years, too!
[17:45] #knownspace> Dan: Hawkwind's 1st album was released in 1969, and Lemmy was fired after being mugged in a parking lot in... Oh, you're right! He formed Motorhead in 1976.
[17:46] #knownspace> Dan: I thought he was axed far later than the event accually occured.
[17:47] #knownspace> Xenovalent: Err..that's completely different from the story on Wikipedia (which has Lemmy fired over getting arrested for drugs at Canadian customs), so can I ask what your source is?
[17:48] #knownspace> Dan: Someone concked him on the head in a parking lot while Hawkwind was on tour in the US, and he got fired because the rest of the band thought he was on drugs (and not sharing) according to an interview with him in a video bio of the band.
[17:49] #knownspace> Dan: Well, in the video, it was Lemmy telling the story of being mugged and his camera stolen at a gas station while the band was on tour. He implied that the band members used it as an excuse to do what they wanted to do beforehand.
[17:50] #knownspace> Dan: Whatever the truth of the matter was, Lemmy does tell the story well.
[17:53] #knownspace> Dan: I wish I could share the torrent link where I got the Hawkwing bio, but it was on the hard drive that crashed Thursday night. Luckily I still have the video backed up.
[17:54] #knownspace> Xenovalent: I'd rather have the music than the bio, TBH
[17:55] #knownspace> Dan: Well, the bio does contain lots of performances of the band, including Stacia dancing. Sometimes she actually wore clothes!
[17:56] #knownspace> Xenovalent: Well, I'm going to wander off in search of dinner. I may be back later on...
[17:56] #knownspace> Xenovalent: It's been nice talking to you
[17:56] #knownspace> Dan: Let's see... I have 56 Hawkwind albums in the music directory on one hard drive in my computer.
[17:58] #knownspace> Dan: I shall await your return. If I'm not here as soon as you reconnect, assume it's because my wife drug me off to bed for immoral purposes. :)
[18:31] #knownspace> Dan: "Lives of great men are reminders/We could make our lives sublime/and in parting leave behind us/Footprints in the sands of time..."
[19:04] ronn has joined #knownspace
[19:05] #knownspace> ronn: testing . . .
[19:05] #knownspace> Dan: Testing suspended due to budget cuts....
[19:05] #knownspace> ronn: Okay, the new address works.
[19:05] #knownspace> Dan: Good!
[19:06] #knownspace> Dan: Glad to see you.
[19:07] #knownspace> Dan: Too bad we solved the world's problems before you got here.
[19:11] #knownspace> ronn: I figured as much. I wanted to check and see if the change from irc.larryniven.org to .net had broken anything.
[19:11] #knownspace> Dan: Not a thing. It seems to be working fine.
[19:11] #knownspace> ronn: (I know it shouldn't, but with computers one can never be sure . . .)
[19:12] #knownspace> Dan: I understand completely.
[19:12] #knownspace> ronn: So, anything exciting happen here earlier?
[19:13] #knownspace> Dan: Using a computer enables one to screw up an unbelieveable speeds.
[19:13] #knownspace> Dan: an=at
[19:13] #knownspace> Dan: Not a lot happened.
[19:14] #knownspace> Dan: We had a discussion on ships speeds in hyperspace, and why "hyperspace" is the fashionable term rather than the more accurate "hypospace" or "subspace."
[19:15] #knownspace> Dan: Some fannish squee on the "...Of Worlds" books.
[19:16] #knownspace> Dan: And my confessing to being a traveler between timelines and the logic, if one could call it that, that supports my crazy claims.
[19:16] #knownspace> Dan: Just an average day.
[19:18] #knownspace> Dan: Neither Larry nor Ed showed up, so we played in the playground and tried not to break the equipment.
[19:19] #knownspace> ronn: Okay. Well, I guess I'll go and try to do something else . . .
[19:19] #knownspace> Dan: OK.
[20:09] Dan has joined #knownspace