Saturday, 5 June, 2010 - 12:00am
[01:06] CrazyEddy has joined #knownspace
[08:06] sean has joined #knownspace
[08:08] #knownspace> sean: dropped power last night for about 10 seconds. no idea why.
[08:29] unclenasty has joined #knownspace
[08:32] Xenovalent has joined #knownspace
[08:33] #knownspace> unclenasty: sean, I'll probably have to bounce the irc service a couple of times
[08:33] #knownspace> Xenovalent: Yeah, what's going on with the IRC server?
[08:33] #knownspace> Xenovalent: My IRC client was complaining that it couldn't find irc.larryniven.org
[08:34] #knownspace> unclenasty: nickserv appears to have alzheimers
[08:34] #knownspace> Xenovalent: But now I'm on using the Flash client, sooo....
[08:34] #knownspace> unclenasty: irc.larryniven.net
[08:40] andrew has joined #knownspace
[08:42] #knownspace> Xenovalent: Well it all seems to be working now...Thanks for pointing out that there was an alternate hostname to use.
[08:53] #knownspace> UncleNasty: ok sean all is good
[08:53] #knownspace> UncleNasty: it had forgottent the channel - they have a built in expiry date
[08:53] #knownspace> UncleNasty: exit
[08:53] #knownspace> UncleNasty: oops
[09:23] #knownspace> SeanS: yeah, Xeno, We had hosting issues with the website in the last couple of weeks so we switched.
[09:24] #knownspace> SeanS: the previous registrar is able to hold onto larryniven.org for 40 more days so we registered larryniven.net instead. slight pain in the butt.
[09:46] Republibot has joined #knownspace
[10:02] nedry has joined #knownspace
[10:07] #knownspace> SeanS: sup mark?
[11:31] senax has joined #knownspace
[11:32] #knownspace> senax: Hello.
[11:57] #knownspace> nedry: just mowing the lawn.
[11:57] #knownspace> nedry: not it's onward to making dinner
[11:57] #knownspace> nedry: then I'll be back
[12:32] #knownspace> SeanS: beerrun completed
[12:32] #knownspace> senax: Beer is important...what did you get?
[12:33] #knownspace> SeanS: miller lite
[12:35] #knownspace> senax: Drinking coffee myself. Slept in a bit, now doing homework for a class.
[12:42] #knownspace> SeanS: sipping on water and debating putting the boat in the water.
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[13:09] oldmill has joined #knownspace
[13:10] #knownspace> senax: Looks like someone's having trouble staying connected.
[13:12] oldmill has joined #knownspace
[13:12] #knownspace> oldmill: hi, what time is the chat?
[13:13] #knownspace> senax: This is it. Nobody's really talking at this point, though.
[13:17] #knownspace> oldmill: ok, and is larry niven coming today?
[13:23] #knownspace> senax: Don't know; there are a few people on the list who know him personally, but I'm not one of them.
[13:24] #knownspace> senax: If he does show, it's usually around 1pm Pacific time.
[13:25] #knownspace> senax: Some people connect hors early, for logging I presume, but don't show up to chat until later.
[13:25] #knownspace> senax: hours, that is.
[13:29] #knownspace> oldmill: thanx
[13:45] #knownspace> SeanS: 3pm eastern
[14:01] #knownspace> SeanS: knownspaceARM logs the chat. tis a log bot
[14:14] #knownspace> Lensman: Ho, I see Niven fen are already in the chat room!
[14:14] #knownspace> senax: Hi Lens
[14:24] #knownspace> Lensman: Hi senax
[14:25] #knownspace> SeanS: .weather 40601
[14:25] #knownspace> Outsider: Clear ¤, 86.0? (30?), 29.87in (1008mb), Gentle breeze 8kt (?) - KLOU 13:53, 1753Z
[14:28] #knownspace> senax: Sean, is that a script that runs on the IRC server?
[14:50] #knownspace> senax: .weather 68157
[14:50] #knownspace> Outsider: LFGA: no such ICAO code, or no NOAA data
[14:50] #knownspace> senax: Ah, so it doesn't use zip codes.
[14:50] #knownspace> senax: .weather KOFF
[14:50] #knownspace> Outsider: Scattered, 80.6? (27?), 29.67in (1001mb), Light breeze 5kt (?) - KOFF 12:55, 1755Z
[14:52] #knownspace> senax: .weather KMWN
[14:52] #knownspace> Outsider: Clear ¤, 39?, 1008mb, Gentle breeze 8kt (?) - ORBS 11:50, 0850Z
[15:00] #knownspace> Lensman: I'm surprised there isn't more discussion of the Falcon 9. Is this a game-changer, or just an incremental reduction in per-pound launch cost?
[15:02] #knownspace> Lensman: And just what would it take to get the Falcon 9 man-rated? Will a good launch success rate suffice, or would it have to go thru a process where NASA reviews the vehicle and requires changes to their specs?
[15:03] #knownspace> SeanS: yeah
[15:04] #knownspace> SeanS: wait one.
[15:04] #knownspace> Lensman: How much safety *should* we require? Are we willing to accept, say, a 1 in 50 rate of losing a vehicle and all the astronauts aboard?
[15:06] #knownspace> SeanS: the bot is called phenny
[15:06] #knownspace> Lensman: I understand the test pilots as shown in "The Right Stuff" had more than a 50% death rate (53%?) over their career. How many flights is that? I really don't know. Seems like the American public isn't prepared to accept that death rate for astronauts.
[15:06] #knownspace> SeanS: http://inamidst.com/phenny/
[15:09] #knownspace> Lensman: So, are we going to get larryniven.org back in another 40 days, or are we going to have to wait to see what happens after that? Does the current/former ISP have the physical ability to "squat" on the URL, or is there another authority which will return it to us after that time?
[15:09] Larry has joined #knownspace
[15:10] #knownspace> Lensman: Hi, Larry! And welcome.
[15:10] #knownspace> Larry: Hello all.
[15:10] #knownspace> Larry: Or maybe it's just "Hello Lensman." How are you?
[15:11] #knownspace> Lensman: A bit tired, we're doing spring cleaning in preparation for some guests this coming week. Just finished cleaning the gas grill on our deck, and am contemplating the energy required to take a shower.
[15:12] #knownspace> Larry: Then again, I see several names. Who is "knownspaceARM"?
[15:12] #knownspace> Lensman: Thorough cleaning out of the gas grill, and replacing the... whatever it is in the bottom that squirts the gas out thru tiny holes.
[15:12] #knownspace> Larry: My gril is used up and needs replacing. Marilyn is thinking "party" but we'll need to find a date.
[15:13] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, most listed are either not really here or are quote 'bots unquote.
[15:13] #knownspace> Lensman: Hopefully a few are multitasking and will join us when they see a real conversation is going on.
[15:14] #knownspace> Lensman: Anyway... I guess the answer to "How are you?" is "Filthy and tired, but that's not gonna keep me from the monthly Niven chat!
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[15:15] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry, have you been following SpaceX & Falcon 9?
[15:15] #knownspace> dmac44: Hi guys
[15:15] #knownspace> Lensman: Ho dmac
[15:17] #knownspace> Larry: I have not: neither one. Good?
[15:18] #knownspace> Lensman: They just did an orbital launch of Falcon 9 for the first time yesterday, success on the first try! This was after IIRC three failures of the Falcon 1 before success.
[15:18] #knownspace> Larry: Wait, now, SpaceX is a rocket ship, right? Yea, I've been keeping track. Falcon 9 too?
[15:19] #knownspace> Lensman: Some have been suggesting that Falcon 9 might be man-rated, and I was speculating on what that might take.
[15:19] #knownspace> Larry: Yay! Once you're in orbit...
[15:20] #knownspace> Lensman: SpaceX is the name of the company. So-called "private" launch company, theoretically not gov't sponsored. Altho they did get a substantial NASA grant to develop a system to supply IIRC consumables to the ISS space station.
[15:20] #knownspace> Lensman: ...halfway to anywhere!
[15:20] #knownspace> Lensman: To quote Heinlein.
[15:20] #knownspace> Larry: Man-rated: there's option for stories. I learned of a cheap rocket from a Space Access convention, and my first thought was, someone will try to ride it.
[15:21] #knownspace> Lensman: What's appropriate? It seems the American public isn't prepared to accept the death of astronauts. If we had, oh, 100 flights a year then would "we" accept the loss of one?
[15:21] #knownspace> Larry: (I meant that rockets that aren't man-rated will lure adventurers anyway.)
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[15:22] #knownspace> Larry: Let's see: the Shuttles killed one flight per 25 or so.
[15:23] #knownspace> Lensman: Seems to be some mixed signals from the astronauts, too. After the /Challenger/ and /Columbia/ disasters, they said "We still want to fly", but then after investigations had been going on for awhile they started saying "Well yeah, we knew that was dangerous and we want it fixed before we fly again." Or some of them... it's not appropriate to say all of them think what just one or two said.
[15:23] #knownspace> dmac44: How many pilots did we loose in the early days of airplanes?
[15:24] #knownspace> Lensman: dmac, my understanding is the Edwards Air Force test pilots had a 53% death rate over the course of their careers. But I don't know what the average number of flights was.
[15:24] #knownspace> Lensman: That is, back in the days of /The Right Stuff/. I presume the survival rate is higher now.
[15:25] #knownspace> dmac44: I was thinking back after the Wright Brothers.
[15:25] #knownspace> Lensman: That was back when we let kids ride down the highway in the back of a pickup with no seat belts. Our culture is much less tolerant of danger today.
[15:26] #knownspace> Lensman: Realistically, we're going to have to accept a higher death rate than flying on commercial airliners. Maybe someday we'll have spaceplanes with that good a safety record, but it's going to take a lot of time and development to get there.
[15:26] #knownspace> dmac44: How many pilots of private planes do we loose today? My point is that once a tchnology becomes widespread deaths are taken as more usual (re auto fatalities in the Us every year).
[15:27] #knownspace> Lensman: So, as Larry said, *some* will be willing to fly on rockets which are not "man-rated". Is that the only way we're going to get the experience we need to develop relatively safe orbital flight systems?
[15:29] #knownspace> Lensman: dmac: Yeah, the media makes a big deal out of the crash of every single airliner, which carry dozens or hundreds of passengers. Not so much the crash of small private planes which carry only 1-4 passengers. So is the right approach to launch only small vehicles to orbit, vehicles which carry only 1-4 astronauts?
[15:29] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, this subject doesn't seem to be going anywhere.
[15:30] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry, were you involved in the discussion we had within the last 2-3 months about the rise of the ARM and the UN as a sovereign power in Known Space?
[15:31] #knownspace> dmac44: Is NASA space technology in the public domain? OR do we have to reinvent the wheel to get up to at least where they're at?
[15:32] #knownspace> Lensman: dmac: Good question. I understand SpaceShipOne was able to use a lot of the tech developed by NASA. The gov't doesn't copyright its publications, and I presume that goes for patents too. But every piece of NASA equipment is made by a commercial company, and of course they *can* get patents.
[15:34] #knownspace> Larry: (Doorbell rang.) Letter, Saturday delivery. Guy is interested in known space. Problem is Mandell, of course. Maybe I can steer him to something else.
[15:34] #knownspace> Lensman: What is "Mandell" ?
[15:38] #knownspace> Larry: Mandell has held the movie and sub rights to Ringworld and known space for 26 years. I'm in negotiations to get the rights moving again. Can't discuss.
[15:39] #knownspace> Lensman: Ah.
[15:39] #knownspace> dmac44: Larry, have you and Jerry sold the movie rights to Mote?
[15:40] #knownspace> Larry: Rise of the ARM: I'm convinced that the UN and ARM--or someone--will be oppresive if we're going to stop the increase of Earth's population--without something worse, like famine or war.
[15:40] #knownspace> Lensman: Anyway... Larry, I'm interested in what caused the rise of the ARM and what led to Earth's various sovereign powers surrendering their sovereignty to the UN. Have we discussed that in a previous Niven chat? I can't remember, and I don't want to bore you if we've discussed it before.
[15:40] #knownspace> Larry: MOTE rights are currently available, I think.
[15:41] #knownspace> dmac44: With today's computer graphics I would think it'd make a great movie (or series of them).
[15:41] #knownspace> Lensman: Here's my guess: That overpopulation led to various problems (famine, wars, water shortages, wars over resources) that the nations of the world were willing to give up their sovereignty in exchange for the promise of stability from a world government.
[15:42] #knownspace> Larry: What I noticed first was this: computer tech makes it possible for one entity to rule the world. It might evolve from the UN (as a UN police force rose from an Amalgamation of Regional Militias).
[15:42] #knownspace> dmac44: Lens asks a good question. Look at Europe today and the Euro crisis. The nations there want a single currency but don't want to give up their sovernity.
[15:42] #knownspace> Lensman: But, Larry, do you have any "backstory" in mind regarding that? I don't really see much in the KS stories that support a "time of troubles". There's an indication of an atomic explosion in... IIRC Greater Los Angeles.
[15:43] #knownspace> Larry: Lensman's picture resembles mine. It strikes me that many religions would be banned if this works out.
[15:43] #knownspace> Lensman: Okay, and how does the ARM tie into that? Did the ARM become a sovereign police power before or after the UN became the world government? Or was it simultaneous, one supporting the other?
[15:44] #knownspace> Lensman: Ohhh! We were recently arguing about that on the discussion list! Some were saying that about the first thing the UN would do would be to ban some/many religions. I thought there would be fierce resistance to that. But if the author says it is so, then it is so!
[15:45] #knownspace> dmac44: Banning religons would cause a lot of wars I would think.
[15:45] #knownspace> Larry: I wouldn't doubt there was a coup of sorts. News of it might have been suppressed using present or future tech.
[15:47] #knownspace> Lensman: The Role-Playing Game talks about a worldwide convention to work out the... I dunno, I guess the equivalent of the U.S. Constitution for the world government. If it was a coup, then that scenario is out, right Larry? Not a gradual legislative process, but a coup.
[15:47] #knownspace> Lensman: And how did that coup work? Was there a simultaneous takeover of the U.S., Soviet Union and other nuclear powers? I presume a coup in just one nation wouldn't be sufficient to create a world gov't.
[15:48] #knownspace> Lensman: Or... are you suggesting a coup by the ARM?
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[15:49] #knownspace> Lensman: The ARM has always been said to be the police of the UN, but all we ever see of the UN's authority in the stories is the ARM. Larry, are you suggesting the ARM actually controls the UN, and not vice versa?
[15:49] Fred has joined #knownspace
[15:50] #knownspace> Fred: greets peeps
[15:50] #knownspace> Lensman: Welcome, Fred!
[15:50] #knownspace> Larry: Interesting thought. I should show more of the UN, or else nail it down that the ARM is in charge. I think the former.
[15:51] #knownspace> Fred: I had a moof panic when my bookmark didn't work, until I realized it was set for org and not net
[15:52] #knownspace> Lensman: The Fertility Board is obviously an important part of the UN. Glad to hear you say that you think the ARM is not in charge. Some Niven fans think Earth is a police state, but I think that's an exaggeration.
[15:52] #knownspace> Fred: yeesh. moof = moment of
[15:52] #knownspace> Larry: as for a coup, I don't have one in mind. I'm inclined to believe in a peaceful series of events, like the collapse of the Soviet Union: lots of negotiation and dicy dickering.
[15:54] #knownspace> Larry: World police state is an exaggeration, but a lot of freedom has been lost by 2100. Heck, a lot has been lost by 2010.
[15:54] #knownspace> Lensman: That is more in line with what I was thinking, yeah. That the "time of troubles" got so bad that the nations of the world would capitulate... basically throw up their collective hands and say "We hate to give up our sovereignty to the world gov't, but anything is better than *this*!"
[15:56] #knownspace> Lensman: Yeah. A lot of the restrictions on Constitutional freedoms under the Bush Jr. administration made me think of /It Can't Happen Here/. But in the past, we've had such restrictions in wartime... restrictions which have been removed after the war is over. Trouble is, this time I don't see that the "war on terrorism" is *ever* going to be over.
[15:57] #knownspace> Lensman: And the Obama administration doesn't seem to be moving very fast to remove the restrictions, either. I find that very troubling.
[15:58] #knownspace> Lensman: So, Larry, how do you see the suppression of religion progressing? In the past, religious wars have been perhaps the most fierce... how did the UN prevent a general uprising against the suppression of religion?
[15:59] #knownspace> Larry: We've still got the Supreme Court as a brake on these new laws. But Lensman's right, there have been draconiam laws, and many were overturned. Rooseveldt was a nightmare for libertarians.
[15:59] #knownspace> Lensman: Roosevelt = FDR and not Teddy, I presume?
[16:01] #knownspace> Larry: Suppression of religion...I need to think that through. If El Qaeda got sufficiently computerized, a mole might shut them down somehow...nope, I don't believe bullets are obsolete.
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[16:02] #knownspace> Lensman: Hi Ed!
[16:02] #knownspace> EML: Hi, all.
[16:02] #knownspace> SeanS: hi Larry, Ed, and all.
[16:02] #knownspace> SeanS: got company so I will be in and out.
[16:02] #knownspace> Lensman: I was thinking more along the line of Roman Catholics and Muslims... and Mormons... anyone whose religion encourages them to "be fruitful and multiply".
[16:03] #knownspace> Larry: Hi, Ed.
[16:03] #knownspace> Lensman: Al Queda (sp?) is a fringe group... I don't see them being significant in slowing the takeover of a world gov't.
[16:04] #knownspace> EML: I'm using a new I/F today. If there's a theme banner, I'm not seeing it. Do we have (however nominally) a theme?
[16:05] #knownspace> Larry: Lensman, do we have a theme or are we just rolling?
[16:05] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry, we noted recently that religion, or at least Human religion, just doesn't pop up in the KS stories. Going along with what you're saying here... are you saying that religions have pretty much died out as an important cultural influence?
[16:06] #knownspace> Larry: Islam isn't a fringe group. The Fertility Laws would attack Islam head on, wouldn't they? And the Catholics. Can you see the two uniting?
[16:06] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry, if you want to talk about something else that's fine. It seemed the conversation was lagging and I was casting around for something that might get some response. What do *you* or Ed want to talk about?
[16:07] #knownspace> Fred: I have a chat interface question
[16:07] #knownspace> Larry: Yes, Lensman, that's what I'm saying, and I'm trying to wrap a story around it now.
[16:07] #knownspace> EML: Pak adults (pre protector) have some degree of religion.
[16:07] #knownspace> Fred: Ed, Larry, and Sooby have green squares with a + next to their names; what's the significance?
[16:08] #knownspace> Larry: (I meant the dirth of religions in early known space.)
[16:08] #knownspace> EML: Fred: I dunno. In the I/F I'm using I have no control over how my input appears.
[16:08] #knownspace> Lensman: Yeah, the Fertility Laws are completely incompatible with Muslim and Catholic teachings. Now, we could suggest the religions were co-opted by the propaganda/ information control you suggested earlier, but I'm getting the impression it wasn't that the religions were co-opted... but rather they were STAMPED OUT. So... how did that happen? And is there a story there the author would like to...
[16:08] #knownspace> Lensman: ...tell? (Nudge, nudge...)
[16:09] #knownspace> Fred: Ed, I don't see a theme here either, just 'welcome'
[16:09] #knownspace> Larry: Sure, Pak breeders (and intelligent hominids descended from them) have religions in their brain circuitry. Worship the protectors, obey them unthinkingly, or die.
[16:09] #knownspace> EML: Fred: and I see your input in boded red.
[16:09] #knownspace> Lensman: I don't know what it means, Fred.
[16:09] #knownspace> Fred: apparently it's something sean set (reading back)
[16:10] #knownspace> EML: so can we say it's a Pak of lies?
[16:10] #knownspace> Lensman: Yeah, I noticed something about Lensman +1 or some such... maybe Sean gave me the power to change topic line.
[16:10] #knownspace> dmac44: So if we're wired for religon how are we going to make the peaceful transition. Some type of genetically engineered virus that removes it?
[16:10] #knownspace> Fred: Ed, I set my text to bold red, thinking it only affected my window, had no idea you see it as well
[16:10] #knownspace> Lensman: But I never can remember *how* to change the topic line.
[16:11] #knownspace> Lensman: Yeah, we all see red when Fred posts! Oh, wait... :)
[16:11] #knownspace> Fred: :P
[16:11] #knownspace> Fred: darn, no smiley for that
[16:12] #knownspace> Lensman: I see a smiley, in Chatzilla, Fred.
[16:12] #knownspace> Lensman: Obviously depends on your IRC client.
[16:12] #knownspace> Larry: Communism was an unnoticed religion. Such are possible. Maybe Brennan engineered a way of thought, in the time he had to work with. He was certainly playing with Earth.
[16:12] #knownspace> dmac44: it = removes the brain circuits for religon.
[16:12] #knownspace> Fred: hauh. I got smiley for your :) but not for my :P - I'm using java through the website
[16:13] #knownspace> Lensman: Ah, now that makes sense! Communism replace religion to a great extent in the Soviet Union and Red China. So, the UN uses propaganda to accomplish the same purpose.
[16:13] #knownspace> Larry: Yeah.
[16:14] #knownspace> EML: Since not everyone is religious, the genetic wiring can't be determinitive (sp?). Culture can change religious beliefs.
[16:14] #knownspace> Fred: don't we need a mechanism first to make the UN anti religion?
[16:14] #knownspace> Fred: maybe that's what Brennan does
[16:14] #knownspace> dmac44: I don't think religion every went away in the Soviet Union or China even though they were surpressed and used heavy propaganda.
[16:14] #knownspace> EML: We need a mechanism for the UN (in fiction only please!) to take over the world.
[16:15] #knownspace> Fred: trick or treat for unicef, ed
[16:15] #knownspace> Fred: it's back, and it's only the beginning
[16:15] #knownspace> EML: Fred: LOL
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[16:16] #knownspace> Fred: I got messages from Selena Gomez of Disney's Wizards this year, trying to get me to support Trick or Treat for Unicef. I was amazed; I thought that died out decades ago.
[16:16] #knownspace> Fred: I remember kids doing it in grade school, but they all kept (or claimed to have kept) the money for themselves
[16:17] #knownspace> Lensman: Ed: Yeah, sure, religion is a part of culture. For many, it's a very basic part of culture. That was my objection-- that religious wars in the past have been pretty fierce, and I couldn't imagine how religion could be suppressed without a general uprising against the nascent UN world gov't. But if it was like "communism" in the Soviet Union or Red China, then it make sense. Make a "religion"...
[16:17] #knownspace> Lensman: ...out of population control, and being "green"... heck, "Green" is pretty much a religion already for some! Just encourage that with propaganda and "psychistry" techniques. I think that's plausible.
[16:17] #knownspace> EML: Playing devil's advocate, does storyline consistency require an end to religion, or only an end to resisting family planning?
[16:17] #knownspace> Fred: Hey, will the JWs reject the use of Autodocs, and self select themselves out of the gene pool?
[16:18] #knownspace> Fred: If so, that's 1
[16:18] #knownspace> Lensman: dmac: No, religion never went away in the Soviet Union, but neither was it ever an important force. It was successfully suppressed to the point that it was pretty irrelevant.
[16:18] #knownspace> Lensman: Or at least, that's my impression.
[16:18] #knownspace> EML: "Be fruitful and multiply" comes from Genesis, but most Jewish denominations are fine with small families.
[16:20] #knownspace> Larry: We're all converging on a reasonable picture. The new religion doesn't call itself one, and it evolves from "green". It gets help from Brennan, but after Gil's time.
[16:21] #knownspace> Lensman: Ed: I think Larry just indicated (before you arrived today) that religious influence had pretty much died out in Known Space, or more specifically among Humans in Known Space, and I was suggesting that the UN rise to power was associated with religious influence waning. Doesn't have to be true, of course... I'm just trying to get a better idea of how the UN and the ARM rose to power in the...
[16:21] #knownspace> Lensman: ...history of Known Space.
[16:23] #knownspace> EML: Lens: thanks for the background.
[16:23] #knownspace> Lensman: After Gil's time? So religion is still a force in Gil's time? Does that mean that the UN has not really got a handle on population control in Gil's time? 'Cuz I thought it had. "Mother hunts" and all that.
[16:24] #knownspace> EML: The Mother Hunts in Juggler were amplified from mentions in Gil's stories.
[16:25] #knownspace> Larry: I'm trying to write of a Mother Hunt now. Not competing with you, Ed; this is earlier.
[16:26] #knownspace> EML: I always figured -- not having asked Larry's opinion -- some sort of UN coup in the KS alternate timeline.
[16:26] #knownspace> Lensman: Fred, I don't know enuff about the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses to have an informed opinion. Other than they proselytize pretty fiercely.
[16:26] #knownspace> EML: Larry: I didn't take it as competition.
[16:27] #knownspace> dmac44: But even today there are plenty of Roman Catholic families in the US with only a couple of children. Even though birth control is offically banned I think you'll find many who use it.
[16:27] #knownspace> Fred: yes, dmac, and I've never understood that
[16:27] #knownspace> Lensman: Ed, Larry earlier mentioned a coup. But then it sounded like I argued him out of that. I'm not sure. I'm not sure just how much Larry wants to nail it down, either. Maybe he wants to leave the question open in case he wants to set a story in the period sometime.
[16:27] #knownspace> Fred: people that stand by their religion while going against it's teachings
[16:28] #knownspace> Lensman: dmac: My impression is that American Catholics pretty much ignore the prohibition against birth control, but in many/most other nations they don't ignore it.
[16:28] #knownspace> Xenovalent: Fred: I think a lot of people uses churches as a social club as much as they use them as a religious temple.
[16:29] #knownspace> Fred: interesting
[16:29] #knownspace> Lensman: Keep in mind, the UN must rule not only over the first-world countries which are *already* controlling their population, but also over third-world countries where today the population is blooming or exploding.
[16:29] #knownspace> EML: Religions splinter. Occasionally splinters reunite. And both religions and splinters evolve.
[16:31] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry: One big unanswered question in my mind is how much John Hewitt consulted with you when writing the background for the /Ringworld Role-Playing Game/. Hewitt's own notes say he consulted you extensively, but I note that you've pretty much ignored what's specified in the game. For instance, your dates for the Man Kzin Wars don't match Hewitt's at all.
[16:32] #knownspace> dmac44: Lens: So why do American Roman Catholics pretty much ignore the ban on birth control? Is it the level of economic prosperity or something else? Answering this might give us a better idea of what needs to happen in the rest of the world for religions to loose their grip.
[16:33] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry: Contrariwise, you have an entire section on the Ringworld's Night People in... is it /Playgrounds of the Mind/? I don't know if that's something you wrote *for* the RPG, or whether that's something John Hewitt wrote which you reprinted in your collection.
[16:33] #knownspace> Larry: Hmm...the Chaosium Game? I took data from Hewitt's writeup. If it's veered, I don't know just how it happened. I no longer have his notes to give to contributers.
[16:34] bandersnatch has joined #knownspace
[16:34] #knownspace> Larry: to dmac44: my sources say that they got rich. Getting rich means you don't need so many children...to enslave, perhaps, or at least to work as soon as they're old enough.
[16:34] #knownspace> EML: Larry: have you a date or date range in mind for the UN takeover?
[16:35] #knownspace> Lensman: dmac: Some writers named Niven and Pournelle have noted that the rich tend to limit their number of children, even back before "the pill". It's a natural consequence of being rich, as I understand it. I'm not sure what the psychology is... if you're poor, life is uncertain and you "need" more children to ensure your genes survive, so it's instinctive? Or if you're rich and well educated, you...
[16:35] #knownspace> Lensman: ...are more likely to practice family planning, and you don't want a lot of kids around to split up the estate, so it's a conscious decision? Or is it some of both-- instinct *and* conscious decision?
[16:35] #knownspace> bandersnatch: plop, ... Good evening all around.
[16:36] #knownspace> dmac44: Larry: Getting rich suppoets a peaceful transition.
[16:36] #knownspace> dmac44: that's "supports"
[16:37] #knownspace> Lensman: As far as the American Roman Catholics... my understanding is that the local priest has more influence over Catholics than the pronouncements of the Pope. Many bishops in the USA have openly broken with the Vatican on the issue of birth control. So the Roman Catholic in the USA might well follow the advice of his/her priest in that regard. Now caveat: I am not a Catholic, this is my...
[16:37] #knownspace> Lensman: ...impression as an outsider.
[16:37] #knownspace> EML: has the Islamic world followed the same pattern? Do well-to-do Islamic families also limit their familes? I have no idea.
[16:37] #knownspace> Xenovalent: There's also kind of a chicken-and-egg problem with rich/fewer children issue: It's easier to gain wealth if you're feeding fewer mouths, so which one comes first?
[16:38] #knownspace> Larry: For a person or for a civilization, getting rich means you're good at planning. Maybe planned children are always less numerous.
[16:40] #knownspace> bandersnatch: number of kids: that varies. Look at Ferdinand Piaech, Porsche grandson, rich to no end, balls of steel and 12 kids with 4 different ladies/wives. Wonder if has read Lazazurs Long ;-).
[16:41] #knownspace> Lensman: Ed: Islam allows a husband to have up to four wives. For the Muslims, having many offspring is a visible sign of wealth. So in Muslim theocracies, there is a tendency for the rich to have large families. Now, this is not an area where I know a lot, but I *think* in more moderate Muslim countries, where it's not a theocracy, single wives are the norm. Not sure how the fertility rate compares...
[16:41] #knownspace> Lensman: ...between Muslims and non-Muslims in such countries.
[16:42] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry has a good point about "slave labor". For non-mechanized farm families, having lots of kids is helpful as they help with the chores. Moving from the farm to an urban area, the kids are not so much of a financial help. More of a burden.
[16:42] #knownspace> EML: My point being, a fictional end to religion (or major religious practices) has to address more than Catholicism.
[16:43] #knownspace> Lensman: Ed: A Soviet-style state philosophy replacing religion will suppress *all* religions, not just Catholicism.
[16:44] #knownspace> Larry: Population control needn't suppress ALL religions,b ut it comes mighty close.
[16:44] #knownspace> EML: And even in the USSR, suppression didn't necessarily work. Think Chechnya.
[16:44] #knownspace> dmac44: So if the world is getting richer, why? People are getting better educated and using technology to become more productive at a faster rate than population is increasing. But then technology is a two edged sword. The abuse of that technology might drive people toward a world government. This is consistent with Larry's past writings.
[16:45] #knownspace> Larry: Fare you well, all, and thanks for the input. It's lunchtime.
[16:45] #knownspace> EML: I popped into the chat today knowing it would be a short visit. I've got things going on this afternoon. TTFN.
[16:45] #knownspace> dmac44: Bye Larry, bye Ed.
[16:46] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry: Yes, population control needs to suppress religions in general. And I don't note that religion is any more a factor in the Gil the ARM stories than it is in a later era. Are you sure that religion wasn't suppressed until after Gil's time?
[16:46] #knownspace> Lensman: Bye, Larry... Oops, too late.
[16:46] #knownspace> Fred: and, just like that ...
[16:46] #knownspace> Fred: perhaps we got ... too close
[16:48] #knownspace> Fred: I have to get myself together to go down to the pharmacy and be ignored by my last great love, come to think of it
[16:49] #knownspace> bandersnatch: Fred, you could try the Malcolm gambit?
[16:49] #knownspace> Lensman: I don't know enuff about Chechnya to comment. Was that a Muslim majority area? Look at Poland. The Pope had a lot of influence in helping promote the Solidarity movement, which is one of the things which weakened the Soviet control over their satellite countries. I'm guessing that Chechnya (sp?) was, similarly, not an area which was under the firm control of the Soviet Union.
[16:50] #knownspace> Fred: the malcolm gambit?
[16:50] #knownspace> dmac44: There are a lot of cross currents required for the UN to take over. Religion being surpressed (or changed) is just one.
[16:51] #knownspace> Lensman: Vas ist das "Malcolm gambit" ?
[16:51] Republibot has joined #knownspace
[16:51] #knownspace> bandersnatch: initial scenes from http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091464/ malcolm fetches his shopping via RC car.
[16:51] #knownspace> Fred: hey, there, republibot
[16:51] Republibot has joined #knownspace
[16:51] #knownspace> Fred: are you on my tom swift group?
[16:51] #knownspace> Lensman: Are you "live" now, Republibot?
[16:52] #knownspace> Fred: lol, bandersnatch. sooner or later she won't be there any more. and she alternates being nice or mean to me like clockwork. today is a scheduled 'nice' day
[16:53] #knownspace> Fred: a couple of months ago it hurt, now it's more bemusing
[16:55] #knownspace> dmac44: I'm heading out too. I have gophers to slay. Sancheo, my armor, my sword ......
[16:58] #knownspace> Fred: I'll BBL if I survive this latest encounter
[16:59] #knownspace> bandersnatch: ?? BBL ??, lead me?
[17:00] #knownspace> Lensman: BBL = Be Back Later (I think)
[17:00] #knownspace> Lensman: And BBL for me, too... I need a shower!
[17:06] Republibot has joined #knownspace
[17:07] #knownspace> Xenovalent: Republibot: Are the quit/join messages telling me that you're in Tampa accurate?
[17:10] Republibot has joined #knownspace
[17:20] #knownspace> Fred: BBL = be back later
[17:41] Lensman2 has joined #knownspace
[18:00] #knownspace> Fred: lens
[18:00] #knownspace> Fred: got 'the big ignore'
[18:04] Republibot has joined #knownspace
[08:06] sean has joined #knownspace
[08:08] #knownspace> sean: dropped power last night for about 10 seconds. no idea why.
[08:29] unclenasty has joined #knownspace
[08:32] Xenovalent has joined #knownspace
[08:33] #knownspace> unclenasty: sean, I'll probably have to bounce the irc service a couple of times
[08:33] #knownspace> Xenovalent: Yeah, what's going on with the IRC server?
[08:33] #knownspace> Xenovalent: My IRC client was complaining that it couldn't find irc.larryniven.org
[08:34] #knownspace> unclenasty: nickserv appears to have alzheimers
[08:34] #knownspace> Xenovalent: But now I'm on using the Flash client, sooo....
[08:34] #knownspace> unclenasty: irc.larryniven.net
[08:40] andrew has joined #knownspace
[08:42] #knownspace> Xenovalent: Well it all seems to be working now...Thanks for pointing out that there was an alternate hostname to use.
[08:53] #knownspace> UncleNasty: ok sean all is good
[08:53] #knownspace> UncleNasty: it had forgottent the channel - they have a built in expiry date
[08:53] #knownspace> UncleNasty: exit
[08:53] #knownspace> UncleNasty: oops
[09:23] #knownspace> SeanS: yeah, Xeno, We had hosting issues with the website in the last couple of weeks so we switched.
[09:24] #knownspace> SeanS: the previous registrar is able to hold onto larryniven.org for 40 more days so we registered larryniven.net instead. slight pain in the butt.
[09:46] Republibot has joined #knownspace
[10:02] nedry has joined #knownspace
[10:07] #knownspace> SeanS: sup mark?
[11:31] senax has joined #knownspace
[11:32] #knownspace> senax: Hello.
[11:57] #knownspace> nedry: just mowing the lawn.
[11:57] #knownspace> nedry: not it's onward to making dinner
[11:57] #knownspace> nedry: then I'll be back
[12:32] #knownspace> SeanS: beerrun completed
[12:32] #knownspace> senax: Beer is important...what did you get?
[12:33] #knownspace> SeanS: miller lite
[12:35] #knownspace> senax: Drinking coffee myself. Slept in a bit, now doing homework for a class.
[12:42] #knownspace> SeanS: sipping on water and debating putting the boat in the water.
[13:08] oldmill has joined #knownspace
[13:09] oldmill has joined #knownspace
[13:10] #knownspace> senax: Looks like someone's having trouble staying connected.
[13:12] oldmill has joined #knownspace
[13:12] #knownspace> oldmill: hi, what time is the chat?
[13:13] #knownspace> senax: This is it. Nobody's really talking at this point, though.
[13:17] #knownspace> oldmill: ok, and is larry niven coming today?
[13:23] #knownspace> senax: Don't know; there are a few people on the list who know him personally, but I'm not one of them.
[13:24] #knownspace> senax: If he does show, it's usually around 1pm Pacific time.
[13:25] #knownspace> senax: Some people connect hors early, for logging I presume, but don't show up to chat until later.
[13:25] #knownspace> senax: hours, that is.
[13:29] #knownspace> oldmill: thanx
[13:45] #knownspace> SeanS: 3pm eastern
[14:01] #knownspace> SeanS: knownspaceARM logs the chat. tis a log bot
[14:14] #knownspace> Lensman: Ho, I see Niven fen are already in the chat room!
[14:14] #knownspace> senax: Hi Lens
[14:24] #knownspace> Lensman: Hi senax
[14:25] #knownspace> SeanS: .weather 40601
[14:25] #knownspace> Outsider: Clear ¤, 86.0? (30?), 29.87in (1008mb), Gentle breeze 8kt (?) - KLOU 13:53, 1753Z
[14:28] #knownspace> senax: Sean, is that a script that runs on the IRC server?
[14:50] #knownspace> senax: .weather 68157
[14:50] #knownspace> Outsider: LFGA: no such ICAO code, or no NOAA data
[14:50] #knownspace> senax: Ah, so it doesn't use zip codes.
[14:50] #knownspace> senax: .weather KOFF
[14:50] #knownspace> Outsider: Scattered, 80.6? (27?), 29.67in (1001mb), Light breeze 5kt (?) - KOFF 12:55, 1755Z
[14:52] #knownspace> senax: .weather KMWN
[14:52] #knownspace> Outsider: Clear ¤, 39?, 1008mb, Gentle breeze 8kt (?) - ORBS 11:50, 0850Z
[15:00] #knownspace> Lensman: I'm surprised there isn't more discussion of the Falcon 9. Is this a game-changer, or just an incremental reduction in per-pound launch cost?
[15:02] #knownspace> Lensman: And just what would it take to get the Falcon 9 man-rated? Will a good launch success rate suffice, or would it have to go thru a process where NASA reviews the vehicle and requires changes to their specs?
[15:03] #knownspace> SeanS: yeah
[15:04] #knownspace> SeanS: wait one.
[15:04] #knownspace> Lensman: How much safety *should* we require? Are we willing to accept, say, a 1 in 50 rate of losing a vehicle and all the astronauts aboard?
[15:06] #knownspace> SeanS: the bot is called phenny
[15:06] #knownspace> Lensman: I understand the test pilots as shown in "The Right Stuff" had more than a 50% death rate (53%?) over their career. How many flights is that? I really don't know. Seems like the American public isn't prepared to accept that death rate for astronauts.
[15:06] #knownspace> SeanS: http://inamidst.com/phenny/
[15:09] #knownspace> Lensman: So, are we going to get larryniven.org back in another 40 days, or are we going to have to wait to see what happens after that? Does the current/former ISP have the physical ability to "squat" on the URL, or is there another authority which will return it to us after that time?
[15:09] Larry has joined #knownspace
[15:10] #knownspace> Lensman: Hi, Larry! And welcome.
[15:10] #knownspace> Larry: Hello all.
[15:10] #knownspace> Larry: Or maybe it's just "Hello Lensman." How are you?
[15:11] #knownspace> Lensman: A bit tired, we're doing spring cleaning in preparation for some guests this coming week. Just finished cleaning the gas grill on our deck, and am contemplating the energy required to take a shower.
[15:12] #knownspace> Larry: Then again, I see several names. Who is "knownspaceARM"?
[15:12] #knownspace> Lensman: Thorough cleaning out of the gas grill, and replacing the... whatever it is in the bottom that squirts the gas out thru tiny holes.
[15:12] #knownspace> Larry: My gril is used up and needs replacing. Marilyn is thinking "party" but we'll need to find a date.
[15:13] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, most listed are either not really here or are quote 'bots unquote.
[15:13] #knownspace> Lensman: Hopefully a few are multitasking and will join us when they see a real conversation is going on.
[15:14] #knownspace> Lensman: Anyway... I guess the answer to "How are you?" is "Filthy and tired, but that's not gonna keep me from the monthly Niven chat!
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[15:15] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry, have you been following SpaceX & Falcon 9?
[15:15] #knownspace> dmac44: Hi guys
[15:15] #knownspace> Lensman: Ho dmac
[15:17] #knownspace> Larry: I have not: neither one. Good?
[15:18] #knownspace> Lensman: They just did an orbital launch of Falcon 9 for the first time yesterday, success on the first try! This was after IIRC three failures of the Falcon 1 before success.
[15:18] #knownspace> Larry: Wait, now, SpaceX is a rocket ship, right? Yea, I've been keeping track. Falcon 9 too?
[15:19] #knownspace> Lensman: Some have been suggesting that Falcon 9 might be man-rated, and I was speculating on what that might take.
[15:19] #knownspace> Larry: Yay! Once you're in orbit...
[15:20] #knownspace> Lensman: SpaceX is the name of the company. So-called "private" launch company, theoretically not gov't sponsored. Altho they did get a substantial NASA grant to develop a system to supply IIRC consumables to the ISS space station.
[15:20] #knownspace> Lensman: ...halfway to anywhere!
[15:20] #knownspace> Lensman: To quote Heinlein.
[15:20] #knownspace> Larry: Man-rated: there's option for stories. I learned of a cheap rocket from a Space Access convention, and my first thought was, someone will try to ride it.
[15:21] #knownspace> Lensman: What's appropriate? It seems the American public isn't prepared to accept the death of astronauts. If we had, oh, 100 flights a year then would "we" accept the loss of one?
[15:21] #knownspace> Larry: (I meant that rockets that aren't man-rated will lure adventurers anyway.)
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[15:22] #knownspace> Larry: Let's see: the Shuttles killed one flight per 25 or so.
[15:23] #knownspace> Lensman: Seems to be some mixed signals from the astronauts, too. After the /Challenger/ and /Columbia/ disasters, they said "We still want to fly", but then after investigations had been going on for awhile they started saying "Well yeah, we knew that was dangerous and we want it fixed before we fly again." Or some of them... it's not appropriate to say all of them think what just one or two said.
[15:23] #knownspace> dmac44: How many pilots did we loose in the early days of airplanes?
[15:24] #knownspace> Lensman: dmac, my understanding is the Edwards Air Force test pilots had a 53% death rate over the course of their careers. But I don't know what the average number of flights was.
[15:24] #knownspace> Lensman: That is, back in the days of /The Right Stuff/. I presume the survival rate is higher now.
[15:25] #knownspace> dmac44: I was thinking back after the Wright Brothers.
[15:25] #knownspace> Lensman: That was back when we let kids ride down the highway in the back of a pickup with no seat belts. Our culture is much less tolerant of danger today.
[15:26] #knownspace> Lensman: Realistically, we're going to have to accept a higher death rate than flying on commercial airliners. Maybe someday we'll have spaceplanes with that good a safety record, but it's going to take a lot of time and development to get there.
[15:26] #knownspace> dmac44: How many pilots of private planes do we loose today? My point is that once a tchnology becomes widespread deaths are taken as more usual (re auto fatalities in the Us every year).
[15:27] #knownspace> Lensman: So, as Larry said, *some* will be willing to fly on rockets which are not "man-rated". Is that the only way we're going to get the experience we need to develop relatively safe orbital flight systems?
[15:29] #knownspace> Lensman: dmac: Yeah, the media makes a big deal out of the crash of every single airliner, which carry dozens or hundreds of passengers. Not so much the crash of small private planes which carry only 1-4 passengers. So is the right approach to launch only small vehicles to orbit, vehicles which carry only 1-4 astronauts?
[15:29] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, this subject doesn't seem to be going anywhere.
[15:30] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry, were you involved in the discussion we had within the last 2-3 months about the rise of the ARM and the UN as a sovereign power in Known Space?
[15:31] #knownspace> dmac44: Is NASA space technology in the public domain? OR do we have to reinvent the wheel to get up to at least where they're at?
[15:32] #knownspace> Lensman: dmac: Good question. I understand SpaceShipOne was able to use a lot of the tech developed by NASA. The gov't doesn't copyright its publications, and I presume that goes for patents too. But every piece of NASA equipment is made by a commercial company, and of course they *can* get patents.
[15:34] #knownspace> Larry: (Doorbell rang.) Letter, Saturday delivery. Guy is interested in known space. Problem is Mandell, of course. Maybe I can steer him to something else.
[15:34] #knownspace> Lensman: What is "Mandell" ?
[15:38] #knownspace> Larry: Mandell has held the movie and sub rights to Ringworld and known space for 26 years. I'm in negotiations to get the rights moving again. Can't discuss.
[15:39] #knownspace> Lensman: Ah.
[15:39] #knownspace> dmac44: Larry, have you and Jerry sold the movie rights to Mote?
[15:40] #knownspace> Larry: Rise of the ARM: I'm convinced that the UN and ARM--or someone--will be oppresive if we're going to stop the increase of Earth's population--without something worse, like famine or war.
[15:40] #knownspace> Lensman: Anyway... Larry, I'm interested in what caused the rise of the ARM and what led to Earth's various sovereign powers surrendering their sovereignty to the UN. Have we discussed that in a previous Niven chat? I can't remember, and I don't want to bore you if we've discussed it before.
[15:40] #knownspace> Larry: MOTE rights are currently available, I think.
[15:41] #knownspace> dmac44: With today's computer graphics I would think it'd make a great movie (or series of them).
[15:41] #knownspace> Lensman: Here's my guess: That overpopulation led to various problems (famine, wars, water shortages, wars over resources) that the nations of the world were willing to give up their sovereignty in exchange for the promise of stability from a world government.
[15:42] #knownspace> Larry: What I noticed first was this: computer tech makes it possible for one entity to rule the world. It might evolve from the UN (as a UN police force rose from an Amalgamation of Regional Militias).
[15:42] #knownspace> dmac44: Lens asks a good question. Look at Europe today and the Euro crisis. The nations there want a single currency but don't want to give up their sovernity.
[15:42] #knownspace> Lensman: But, Larry, do you have any "backstory" in mind regarding that? I don't really see much in the KS stories that support a "time of troubles". There's an indication of an atomic explosion in... IIRC Greater Los Angeles.
[15:43] #knownspace> Larry: Lensman's picture resembles mine. It strikes me that many religions would be banned if this works out.
[15:43] #knownspace> Lensman: Okay, and how does the ARM tie into that? Did the ARM become a sovereign police power before or after the UN became the world government? Or was it simultaneous, one supporting the other?
[15:44] #knownspace> Lensman: Ohhh! We were recently arguing about that on the discussion list! Some were saying that about the first thing the UN would do would be to ban some/many religions. I thought there would be fierce resistance to that. But if the author says it is so, then it is so!
[15:45] #knownspace> dmac44: Banning religons would cause a lot of wars I would think.
[15:45] #knownspace> Larry: I wouldn't doubt there was a coup of sorts. News of it might have been suppressed using present or future tech.
[15:47] #knownspace> Lensman: The Role-Playing Game talks about a worldwide convention to work out the... I dunno, I guess the equivalent of the U.S. Constitution for the world government. If it was a coup, then that scenario is out, right Larry? Not a gradual legislative process, but a coup.
[15:47] #knownspace> Lensman: And how did that coup work? Was there a simultaneous takeover of the U.S., Soviet Union and other nuclear powers? I presume a coup in just one nation wouldn't be sufficient to create a world gov't.
[15:48] #knownspace> Lensman: Or... are you suggesting a coup by the ARM?
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[15:49] #knownspace> Lensman: The ARM has always been said to be the police of the UN, but all we ever see of the UN's authority in the stories is the ARM. Larry, are you suggesting the ARM actually controls the UN, and not vice versa?
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[15:50] #knownspace> Fred: greets peeps
[15:50] #knownspace> Lensman: Welcome, Fred!
[15:50] #knownspace> Larry: Interesting thought. I should show more of the UN, or else nail it down that the ARM is in charge. I think the former.
[15:51] #knownspace> Fred: I had a moof panic when my bookmark didn't work, until I realized it was set for org and not net
[15:52] #knownspace> Lensman: The Fertility Board is obviously an important part of the UN. Glad to hear you say that you think the ARM is not in charge. Some Niven fans think Earth is a police state, but I think that's an exaggeration.
[15:52] #knownspace> Fred: yeesh. moof = moment of
[15:52] #knownspace> Larry: as for a coup, I don't have one in mind. I'm inclined to believe in a peaceful series of events, like the collapse of the Soviet Union: lots of negotiation and dicy dickering.
[15:54] #knownspace> Larry: World police state is an exaggeration, but a lot of freedom has been lost by 2100. Heck, a lot has been lost by 2010.
[15:54] #knownspace> Lensman: That is more in line with what I was thinking, yeah. That the "time of troubles" got so bad that the nations of the world would capitulate... basically throw up their collective hands and say "We hate to give up our sovereignty to the world gov't, but anything is better than *this*!"
[15:56] #knownspace> Lensman: Yeah. A lot of the restrictions on Constitutional freedoms under the Bush Jr. administration made me think of /It Can't Happen Here/. But in the past, we've had such restrictions in wartime... restrictions which have been removed after the war is over. Trouble is, this time I don't see that the "war on terrorism" is *ever* going to be over.
[15:57] #knownspace> Lensman: And the Obama administration doesn't seem to be moving very fast to remove the restrictions, either. I find that very troubling.
[15:58] #knownspace> Lensman: So, Larry, how do you see the suppression of religion progressing? In the past, religious wars have been perhaps the most fierce... how did the UN prevent a general uprising against the suppression of religion?
[15:59] #knownspace> Larry: We've still got the Supreme Court as a brake on these new laws. But Lensman's right, there have been draconiam laws, and many were overturned. Rooseveldt was a nightmare for libertarians.
[15:59] #knownspace> Lensman: Roosevelt = FDR and not Teddy, I presume?
[16:01] #knownspace> Larry: Suppression of religion...I need to think that through. If El Qaeda got sufficiently computerized, a mole might shut them down somehow...nope, I don't believe bullets are obsolete.
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[16:02] #knownspace> Lensman: Hi Ed!
[16:02] #knownspace> EML: Hi, all.
[16:02] #knownspace> SeanS: hi Larry, Ed, and all.
[16:02] #knownspace> SeanS: got company so I will be in and out.
[16:02] #knownspace> Lensman: I was thinking more along the line of Roman Catholics and Muslims... and Mormons... anyone whose religion encourages them to "be fruitful and multiply".
[16:03] #knownspace> Larry: Hi, Ed.
[16:03] #knownspace> Lensman: Al Queda (sp?) is a fringe group... I don't see them being significant in slowing the takeover of a world gov't.
[16:04] #knownspace> EML: I'm using a new I/F today. If there's a theme banner, I'm not seeing it. Do we have (however nominally) a theme?
[16:05] #knownspace> Larry: Lensman, do we have a theme or are we just rolling?
[16:05] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry, we noted recently that religion, or at least Human religion, just doesn't pop up in the KS stories. Going along with what you're saying here... are you saying that religions have pretty much died out as an important cultural influence?
[16:06] #knownspace> Larry: Islam isn't a fringe group. The Fertility Laws would attack Islam head on, wouldn't they? And the Catholics. Can you see the two uniting?
[16:06] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry, if you want to talk about something else that's fine. It seemed the conversation was lagging and I was casting around for something that might get some response. What do *you* or Ed want to talk about?
[16:07] #knownspace> Fred: I have a chat interface question
[16:07] #knownspace> Larry: Yes, Lensman, that's what I'm saying, and I'm trying to wrap a story around it now.
[16:07] #knownspace> EML: Pak adults (pre protector) have some degree of religion.
[16:07] #knownspace> Fred: Ed, Larry, and Sooby have green squares with a + next to their names; what's the significance?
[16:08] #knownspace> Larry: (I meant the dirth of religions in early known space.)
[16:08] #knownspace> EML: Fred: I dunno. In the I/F I'm using I have no control over how my input appears.
[16:08] #knownspace> Lensman: Yeah, the Fertility Laws are completely incompatible with Muslim and Catholic teachings. Now, we could suggest the religions were co-opted by the propaganda/ information control you suggested earlier, but I'm getting the impression it wasn't that the religions were co-opted... but rather they were STAMPED OUT. So... how did that happen? And is there a story there the author would like to...
[16:08] #knownspace> Lensman: ...tell? (Nudge, nudge...)
[16:09] #knownspace> Fred: Ed, I don't see a theme here either, just 'welcome'
[16:09] #knownspace> Larry: Sure, Pak breeders (and intelligent hominids descended from them) have religions in their brain circuitry. Worship the protectors, obey them unthinkingly, or die.
[16:09] #knownspace> EML: Fred: and I see your input in boded red.
[16:09] #knownspace> Lensman: I don't know what it means, Fred.
[16:09] #knownspace> Fred: apparently it's something sean set (reading back)
[16:10] #knownspace> EML: so can we say it's a Pak of lies?
[16:10] #knownspace> Lensman: Yeah, I noticed something about Lensman +1 or some such... maybe Sean gave me the power to change topic line.
[16:10] #knownspace> dmac44: So if we're wired for religon how are we going to make the peaceful transition. Some type of genetically engineered virus that removes it?
[16:10] #knownspace> Fred: Ed, I set my text to bold red, thinking it only affected my window, had no idea you see it as well
[16:10] #knownspace> Lensman: But I never can remember *how* to change the topic line.
[16:11] #knownspace> Lensman: Yeah, we all see red when Fred posts! Oh, wait... :)
[16:11] #knownspace> Fred: :P
[16:11] #knownspace> Fred: darn, no smiley for that
[16:12] #knownspace> Lensman: I see a smiley, in Chatzilla, Fred.
[16:12] #knownspace> Lensman: Obviously depends on your IRC client.
[16:12] #knownspace> Larry: Communism was an unnoticed religion. Such are possible. Maybe Brennan engineered a way of thought, in the time he had to work with. He was certainly playing with Earth.
[16:12] #knownspace> dmac44: it = removes the brain circuits for religon.
[16:12] #knownspace> Fred: hauh. I got smiley for your :) but not for my :P - I'm using java through the website
[16:13] #knownspace> Lensman: Ah, now that makes sense! Communism replace religion to a great extent in the Soviet Union and Red China. So, the UN uses propaganda to accomplish the same purpose.
[16:13] #knownspace> Larry: Yeah.
[16:14] #knownspace> EML: Since not everyone is religious, the genetic wiring can't be determinitive (sp?). Culture can change religious beliefs.
[16:14] #knownspace> Fred: don't we need a mechanism first to make the UN anti religion?
[16:14] #knownspace> Fred: maybe that's what Brennan does
[16:14] #knownspace> dmac44: I don't think religion every went away in the Soviet Union or China even though they were surpressed and used heavy propaganda.
[16:14] #knownspace> EML: We need a mechanism for the UN (in fiction only please!) to take over the world.
[16:15] #knownspace> Fred: trick or treat for unicef, ed
[16:15] #knownspace> Fred: it's back, and it's only the beginning
[16:15] #knownspace> EML: Fred: LOL
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[16:16] #knownspace> Fred: I got messages from Selena Gomez of Disney's Wizards this year, trying to get me to support Trick or Treat for Unicef. I was amazed; I thought that died out decades ago.
[16:16] #knownspace> Fred: I remember kids doing it in grade school, but they all kept (or claimed to have kept) the money for themselves
[16:17] #knownspace> Lensman: Ed: Yeah, sure, religion is a part of culture. For many, it's a very basic part of culture. That was my objection-- that religious wars in the past have been pretty fierce, and I couldn't imagine how religion could be suppressed without a general uprising against the nascent UN world gov't. But if it was like "communism" in the Soviet Union or Red China, then it make sense. Make a "religion"...
[16:17] #knownspace> Lensman: ...out of population control, and being "green"... heck, "Green" is pretty much a religion already for some! Just encourage that with propaganda and "psychistry" techniques. I think that's plausible.
[16:17] #knownspace> EML: Playing devil's advocate, does storyline consistency require an end to religion, or only an end to resisting family planning?
[16:17] #knownspace> Fred: Hey, will the JWs reject the use of Autodocs, and self select themselves out of the gene pool?
[16:18] #knownspace> Fred: If so, that's 1
[16:18] #knownspace> Lensman: dmac: No, religion never went away in the Soviet Union, but neither was it ever an important force. It was successfully suppressed to the point that it was pretty irrelevant.
[16:18] #knownspace> Lensman: Or at least, that's my impression.
[16:18] #knownspace> EML: "Be fruitful and multiply" comes from Genesis, but most Jewish denominations are fine with small families.
[16:20] #knownspace> Larry: We're all converging on a reasonable picture. The new religion doesn't call itself one, and it evolves from "green". It gets help from Brennan, but after Gil's time.
[16:21] #knownspace> Lensman: Ed: I think Larry just indicated (before you arrived today) that religious influence had pretty much died out in Known Space, or more specifically among Humans in Known Space, and I was suggesting that the UN rise to power was associated with religious influence waning. Doesn't have to be true, of course... I'm just trying to get a better idea of how the UN and the ARM rose to power in the...
[16:21] #knownspace> Lensman: ...history of Known Space.
[16:23] #knownspace> EML: Lens: thanks for the background.
[16:23] #knownspace> Lensman: After Gil's time? So religion is still a force in Gil's time? Does that mean that the UN has not really got a handle on population control in Gil's time? 'Cuz I thought it had. "Mother hunts" and all that.
[16:24] #knownspace> EML: The Mother Hunts in Juggler were amplified from mentions in Gil's stories.
[16:25] #knownspace> Larry: I'm trying to write of a Mother Hunt now. Not competing with you, Ed; this is earlier.
[16:26] #knownspace> EML: I always figured -- not having asked Larry's opinion -- some sort of UN coup in the KS alternate timeline.
[16:26] #knownspace> Lensman: Fred, I don't know enuff about the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses to have an informed opinion. Other than they proselytize pretty fiercely.
[16:26] #knownspace> EML: Larry: I didn't take it as competition.
[16:27] #knownspace> dmac44: But even today there are plenty of Roman Catholic families in the US with only a couple of children. Even though birth control is offically banned I think you'll find many who use it.
[16:27] #knownspace> Fred: yes, dmac, and I've never understood that
[16:27] #knownspace> Lensman: Ed, Larry earlier mentioned a coup. But then it sounded like I argued him out of that. I'm not sure. I'm not sure just how much Larry wants to nail it down, either. Maybe he wants to leave the question open in case he wants to set a story in the period sometime.
[16:27] #knownspace> Fred: people that stand by their religion while going against it's teachings
[16:28] #knownspace> Lensman: dmac: My impression is that American Catholics pretty much ignore the prohibition against birth control, but in many/most other nations they don't ignore it.
[16:28] #knownspace> Xenovalent: Fred: I think a lot of people uses churches as a social club as much as they use them as a religious temple.
[16:29] #knownspace> Fred: interesting
[16:29] #knownspace> Lensman: Keep in mind, the UN must rule not only over the first-world countries which are *already* controlling their population, but also over third-world countries where today the population is blooming or exploding.
[16:29] #knownspace> EML: Religions splinter. Occasionally splinters reunite. And both religions and splinters evolve.
[16:31] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry: One big unanswered question in my mind is how much John Hewitt consulted with you when writing the background for the /Ringworld Role-Playing Game/. Hewitt's own notes say he consulted you extensively, but I note that you've pretty much ignored what's specified in the game. For instance, your dates for the Man Kzin Wars don't match Hewitt's at all.
[16:32] #knownspace> dmac44: Lens: So why do American Roman Catholics pretty much ignore the ban on birth control? Is it the level of economic prosperity or something else? Answering this might give us a better idea of what needs to happen in the rest of the world for religions to loose their grip.
[16:33] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry: Contrariwise, you have an entire section on the Ringworld's Night People in... is it /Playgrounds of the Mind/? I don't know if that's something you wrote *for* the RPG, or whether that's something John Hewitt wrote which you reprinted in your collection.
[16:33] #knownspace> Larry: Hmm...the Chaosium Game? I took data from Hewitt's writeup. If it's veered, I don't know just how it happened. I no longer have his notes to give to contributers.
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[16:34] #knownspace> Larry: to dmac44: my sources say that they got rich. Getting rich means you don't need so many children...to enslave, perhaps, or at least to work as soon as they're old enough.
[16:34] #knownspace> EML: Larry: have you a date or date range in mind for the UN takeover?
[16:35] #knownspace> Lensman: dmac: Some writers named Niven and Pournelle have noted that the rich tend to limit their number of children, even back before "the pill". It's a natural consequence of being rich, as I understand it. I'm not sure what the psychology is... if you're poor, life is uncertain and you "need" more children to ensure your genes survive, so it's instinctive? Or if you're rich and well educated, you...
[16:35] #knownspace> Lensman: ...are more likely to practice family planning, and you don't want a lot of kids around to split up the estate, so it's a conscious decision? Or is it some of both-- instinct *and* conscious decision?
[16:35] #knownspace> bandersnatch: plop, ... Good evening all around.
[16:36] #knownspace> dmac44: Larry: Getting rich suppoets a peaceful transition.
[16:36] #knownspace> dmac44: that's "supports"
[16:37] #knownspace> Lensman: As far as the American Roman Catholics... my understanding is that the local priest has more influence over Catholics than the pronouncements of the Pope. Many bishops in the USA have openly broken with the Vatican on the issue of birth control. So the Roman Catholic in the USA might well follow the advice of his/her priest in that regard. Now caveat: I am not a Catholic, this is my...
[16:37] #knownspace> Lensman: ...impression as an outsider.
[16:37] #knownspace> EML: has the Islamic world followed the same pattern? Do well-to-do Islamic families also limit their familes? I have no idea.
[16:37] #knownspace> Xenovalent: There's also kind of a chicken-and-egg problem with rich/fewer children issue: It's easier to gain wealth if you're feeding fewer mouths, so which one comes first?
[16:38] #knownspace> Larry: For a person or for a civilization, getting rich means you're good at planning. Maybe planned children are always less numerous.
[16:40] #knownspace> bandersnatch: number of kids: that varies. Look at Ferdinand Piaech, Porsche grandson, rich to no end, balls of steel and 12 kids with 4 different ladies/wives. Wonder if has read Lazazurs Long ;-).
[16:41] #knownspace> Lensman: Ed: Islam allows a husband to have up to four wives. For the Muslims, having many offspring is a visible sign of wealth. So in Muslim theocracies, there is a tendency for the rich to have large families. Now, this is not an area where I know a lot, but I *think* in more moderate Muslim countries, where it's not a theocracy, single wives are the norm. Not sure how the fertility rate compares...
[16:41] #knownspace> Lensman: ...between Muslims and non-Muslims in such countries.
[16:42] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry has a good point about "slave labor". For non-mechanized farm families, having lots of kids is helpful as they help with the chores. Moving from the farm to an urban area, the kids are not so much of a financial help. More of a burden.
[16:42] #knownspace> EML: My point being, a fictional end to religion (or major religious practices) has to address more than Catholicism.
[16:43] #knownspace> Lensman: Ed: A Soviet-style state philosophy replacing religion will suppress *all* religions, not just Catholicism.
[16:44] #knownspace> Larry: Population control needn't suppress ALL religions,b ut it comes mighty close.
[16:44] #knownspace> EML: And even in the USSR, suppression didn't necessarily work. Think Chechnya.
[16:44] #knownspace> dmac44: So if the world is getting richer, why? People are getting better educated and using technology to become more productive at a faster rate than population is increasing. But then technology is a two edged sword. The abuse of that technology might drive people toward a world government. This is consistent with Larry's past writings.
[16:45] #knownspace> Larry: Fare you well, all, and thanks for the input. It's lunchtime.
[16:45] #knownspace> EML: I popped into the chat today knowing it would be a short visit. I've got things going on this afternoon. TTFN.
[16:45] #knownspace> dmac44: Bye Larry, bye Ed.
[16:46] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry: Yes, population control needs to suppress religions in general. And I don't note that religion is any more a factor in the Gil the ARM stories than it is in a later era. Are you sure that religion wasn't suppressed until after Gil's time?
[16:46] #knownspace> Lensman: Bye, Larry... Oops, too late.
[16:46] #knownspace> Fred: and, just like that ...
[16:46] #knownspace> Fred: perhaps we got ... too close
[16:48] #knownspace> Fred: I have to get myself together to go down to the pharmacy and be ignored by my last great love, come to think of it
[16:49] #knownspace> bandersnatch: Fred, you could try the Malcolm gambit?
[16:49] #knownspace> Lensman: I don't know enuff about Chechnya to comment. Was that a Muslim majority area? Look at Poland. The Pope had a lot of influence in helping promote the Solidarity movement, which is one of the things which weakened the Soviet control over their satellite countries. I'm guessing that Chechnya (sp?) was, similarly, not an area which was under the firm control of the Soviet Union.
[16:50] #knownspace> Fred: the malcolm gambit?
[16:50] #knownspace> dmac44: There are a lot of cross currents required for the UN to take over. Religion being surpressed (or changed) is just one.
[16:51] #knownspace> Lensman: Vas ist das "Malcolm gambit" ?
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[16:51] #knownspace> bandersnatch: initial scenes from http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091464/ malcolm fetches his shopping via RC car.
[16:51] #knownspace> Fred: hey, there, republibot
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[16:51] #knownspace> Fred: are you on my tom swift group?
[16:51] #knownspace> Lensman: Are you "live" now, Republibot?
[16:52] #knownspace> Fred: lol, bandersnatch. sooner or later she won't be there any more. and she alternates being nice or mean to me like clockwork. today is a scheduled 'nice' day
[16:53] #knownspace> Fred: a couple of months ago it hurt, now it's more bemusing
[16:55] #knownspace> dmac44: I'm heading out too. I have gophers to slay. Sancheo, my armor, my sword ......
[16:58] #knownspace> Fred: I'll BBL if I survive this latest encounter
[16:59] #knownspace> bandersnatch: ?? BBL ??, lead me?
[17:00] #knownspace> Lensman: BBL = Be Back Later (I think)
[17:00] #knownspace> Lensman: And BBL for me, too... I need a shower!
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[17:07] #knownspace> Xenovalent: Republibot: Are the quit/join messages telling me that you're in Tampa accurate?
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[17:20] #knownspace> Fred: BBL = be back later
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[18:00] #knownspace> Fred: lens
[18:00] #knownspace> Fred: got 'the big ignore'
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