June

Chat Log: June 6th 2009 /p>

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[05:10] #knownspace> AlexA: Hi all

[05:11] #knownspace> AlexA: When does the 1st Sat chat really kick off?

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[09:53] #knownspace> UncleNasty: mornin

[10:08] AlexA has joined #knownspace

[10:08] #knownspace> UncleNasty: Hi AlexA

[10:08] #knownspace> AlexA: Hi

[10:09] #knownspace> UncleNasty: Connecting early for the chat? ;)

[10:09] #knownspace> AlexA: Just passing. When does 1st sat chat officially start?

[10:09] #knownspace> UncleNasty: i think 3pm

[10:09] #knownspace> UncleNasty: let me check

[10:09] #knownspace> UncleNasty: i'm just in making sure all the bots are running

[10:10] #knownspace> AlexA: It's 15.09 local here

[10:10] #knownspace> AlexA: Uk

[10:10] #knownspace> UncleNasty: ahh right 3pm EST i think, unless it's central

[10:10] #knownspace> AlexA: Another 5 hrs to go?

[10:10] #knownspace> UncleNasty: fraid so

[10:11] #knownspace> AlexA: Ah

[10:11] #knownspace> UncleNasty: the ARM bot is logging, so we're not dependent on anyone connecting to get a full log

[10:11] #knownspace> UncleNasty: if the server's up, the arm bot is logging

[10:11] #knownspace> UncleNasty: whereabouts in the UK are you?

[10:12] #knownspace> AlexA: Wiltshire (near StoneHenge)

[10:13] #knownspace> UncleNasty: heh - I have done the hippy road trips down there :)

[10:13] #knownspace> UncleNasty: used to live near buxton

[10:13] #knownspace> AlexA: Ah

[10:14] #knownspace> UncleNasty: well, leek, which is staffs, not derbyshire, but right on the edge

[10:15] #knownspace> AlexA: Not somewhere I know well. Spent all my life in the South

[10:16] #knownspace> UncleNasty: just checking the town center webcam and.... it's pissing down

[10:36] #knownspace> SeanS: awwwwww

[10:37] #knownspace> UncleNasty: morning Sean

[10:39] #knownspace> UncleNasty: WOW!!!

[10:39] #knownspace> UncleNasty: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aAKluP7yIwJY

[10:39] #knownspace> UncleNasty: COOL!

[10:39] #knownspace> UncleNasty: MS is trying to pressure the US government

[10:39] #knownspace> UncleNasty: I hope they get slapped down hard

[10:49] #knownspace> SeanS: doesnt matter to me as i dont buy microsoft products

[10:50] #knownspace> SeanS: or software period for that matter

[10:50] #knownspace> UncleNasty: lol

[10:50] #knownspace> UncleNasty: i'm just thinking it would be nice to see the evil troll unthroned

[10:50] #knownspace> UncleNasty: ms ruined the computer market

[10:50] #knownspace> SeanS: any tax on any business is just another tax on the consumer

[10:51] #knownspace> UncleNasty: they dumbed it down and took it into a mess of short-cycle updates/upgrades

[10:51] #knownspace> SeanS: most people are too fucking stupid to realize it.

[10:51] #knownspace> UncleNasty: true

[10:51] #knownspace> UncleNasty: money is a fantasy anyway

[10:51] #knownspace> UncleNasty: in and of itself it is worthless

[10:51] #knownspace> UncleNasty: it's just an IOU for debt

[10:51] #knownspace> SeanS: tax those evil oil companies!!!! hey how come my money market account lost a ton of money?

[10:52] #knownspace> UncleNasty: i can see a point in time where the markets have to get rid of some of the middlemen

[10:52] #knownspace> SeanS: i didnt want to be on this tangent today ;)

[10:52] #knownspace> UncleNasty: LOL

[10:52] #knownspace> UncleNasty: you started it :P

[10:53] #knownspace> SeanS: i got led into it buy the microsoft tax thing

[10:53] #knownspace> UncleNasty: i has to take the boy out shortly - he's going flying with cadets

[10:53] #knownspace> UncleNasty: i should be back for the chat (i hope)

[10:54] #knownspace> UncleNasty: did I send you the list of commands for brennan?

[10:54] #knownspace> SeanS: airplane flying?

[10:54] #knownspace> UncleNasty: yup

[10:54] #knownspace> SeanS: yeah

[10:54] #knownspace> SeanS: fun

[10:54] #knownspace> UncleNasty: it'll either be going up in a light aircraft or gliders depending on how the high altitude weather is doing

[10:54] #knownspace> UncleNasty: they get to take the controls in the gliders, which is kinda cool

[10:55] #knownspace> SeanS: neato

[10:55] #knownspace> UncleNasty: at 13 I would have sold my soul for a chance to do this

[10:55] #knownspace> SeanS: absolutely

[10:55] #knownspace> UncleNasty: then again I probably did sell it for something, which explains a lot :-\

[10:55] #knownspace> SeanS: true

[10:56] #knownspace> UncleNasty: back in a bit

[10:56] #knownspace> SeanS: k

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[11:28] #knownspace> LawrenceStJohnMc: Hello

[11:28] #knownspace> LawrenceStJohnMc: Bleh, the name didn't work.

[11:28] #knownspace> Truesdale: Hah.

[11:31] #knownspace> Truesdale: So how is everyone?

[11:42] #knownspace> Inex: Well, it's certainly quiet

[11:57] #knownspace> Inex: *twiddles thumbs*

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[12:28] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: allo

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[12:42] #knownspace> rimworlder: howdy!

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[12:55] #knownspace> Lensman: Hi Rim! Hello everyone!

[12:55] #knownspace> Lensman: So Rim, how far along in /Escape from Hell/ are you?

[13:01] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: I have a question, Lens.

[13:02] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: I have many books to go before I've read all of known space, so I'm sort of sticking to that for the time being. In your opinion how does the overall story of Niven's books like /Escape from Hell/ compare to his known space works?

[13:12] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Known Space evolved over the decades, some of the earily works of Known Space almost seem to be in another universe. The other works seem more internally consistant as they were written nearer in time to eachother.

[13:18] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Makes sense

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[13:27] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: welcome back o_0

[13:27] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Wanted to try ChatZilla for once.

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[13:33] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: o_0

[13:38] CubesForsythe has joined #knownspace

[13:38] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Ah, that's better

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[14:01] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: hi

[14:01] #knownspace> NickE: lo

[14:02] #knownspace> NickE: :-)

[14:02] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: :)

[14:03] #knownspace> NickE: may lurk for a bit, just about to eat Looks good and busy.

[14:03] #knownspace> Lensman: Cubes: Well of course, I could offer my opinion, but I think a better judge is the Hugo and Nebula awards Niven has won. Lessee... /Ringworld/ won the Hugo *and* the Nebula; "Borderland of Sol" won the Hugo, /Ringworld Engineers/ was a Hugo nominee.

[14:03] #knownspace> Lensman: Let me do a bit of research here...

[14:04] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: sure

[14:07] #knownspace> Lensman: Okay, of 19 stories Niven had at least nominated for a Hugo (five winners), seven are Known Space stories.

[14:08] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Were the five winners known space as well?

[14:08] #knownspace> Lensman: So that would suggest that KS doesn't comprise the bulk of his best work. One thing to remember regaring Niven is that, at least early in his career, he was a much stronger short story author than novelist.

[14:09] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: And yet... a hugo award isn't everything

[14:10] #knownspace> Lensman: Winners: "Neutron Star", /Ringworld/, "Borderland of Sol" are KS stories. "The Hole Man" and "Inconstant Moon" are not.

[14:11] #knownspace> Lensman: Details here: http://www.locusmag.com/SFAwards/Db/HugoNomList.html

[14:12] #knownspace> Lensman: KS is Niven's best developed and most acclaimed series. His other series are generally not as well developed.

[14:13] #knownspace> Lensman: Most of his other award winners aren't part of any series. But if you want to know more about his other series, see here:

[14:13] #knownspace> Lensman: http://www.larryniven.org/reviews/universe.shtml

[14:13] #knownspace> Lensman: And that's another web page written by someone who goes by "Lensman". :)

[14:14] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Hehe, I will have to take a look at it

[14:16] #knownspace> Lensman: Seriously, you should also pick up Niven's /All the Myriad Ways/ and /The Hole Man/. Those two collections have some of his best non-KS stories, and there are Hugo winners there. "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex" is also a fan favorite, altho not a Hugo winner. It's in the former collection.

[14:17] #knownspace> Lensman: Or you can read "Steel/Kleenex" online at the <larryniven.org> "Exclusives" section. (Shameless plug!)

[14:19] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Actually, I have those volumes and have read them

[14:20] #knownspace> Lensman: Well yes, a Hugo award isn't everything. But offering you my opinion may not be in your best interests... it's doubtful we have exactly the same tastes.

[14:20] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Of course I am aware of this, it was just an innocent question

[14:20] #knownspace> Lensman: Okay. So just what is it you're trying to find out?

[14:20] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: I just wanted to know what you thought, lol

[14:21] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: to rephrase, I was basically asking if, in your opinion, his newer, non KS books are worth taking a break from KS to read.

[14:22] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, obviously my *interest* in Known Space exceeds my interest in other Niven writings... That is, if you've looked at my Incompleat Known Space Concordance it's obvious. But that doesn't mean I think frex "The Borderland of Sol" is better than "Inconstant Moon", which BTW is Larry's personal favorite.

[14:22] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Inconstant Moon was pretty amazing.

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[14:24] #knownspace> Lensman: IMO it's Niven's earlier stories which are best. Note his Hugo and Nebula nominations and awards are for his earlier work. Niven's more recent works are certainly more polished, but-- as with most writers-- he had more "new ideas" when younger. Exception for /Ringworld's Chidren/-- that has enuff new ideas for at least 3 or 4 books written by just about anyone else!

[14:25] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: I would have to agree. I am more a fan of his earlier short stories

[14:25] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: however, Juggler of Worlds was awesome.

[14:26] #knownspace> Lensman: Niven seems to be happy with the changes in his writing style since he started collaborating with Jerry Pournelle. Admittedly his first collaboration, /The Mote in God's Eye/, is IMO one of his very best... perhaps his best novel, period. (/Ringworld/ is still my *favorite*, but I won't claim it's subjectively his *best* as far as writing goes.) But in general, I haven't cared all that much for most of Niven's other collaborations, exc

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[14:27] #knownspace> Lensman: Hi Loowee!

[14:27] #knownspace> Louis_Wu: Greetings!

[14:27] #knownspace> Lensman: Cubes: See, there's why I hesitate to recommend something, because I found JOW to be disappointing.

[14:27] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Really? I've enjoyed the products of Niven and EML. Oh, why so?

[14:28] #knownspace> Lensman: I'm glad *you* liked it so much!

[14:28] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Don't worry, you aren't going to get my upset or something. I just want to know why :)

[14:28] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: me*

[14:29] #knownspace> Lensman: I enjoyed FOW a lot. But JOW... well, the bulk of the book re-hashed older stories. I'm also irked that for newer readers who haven't read the originals, it's terribly spoiler-riffic. Who'd want to read an abridged version of "Neutron Star", possibly the most perfect SF "puzzle story" ever published?

[14:30] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: But it leaves the actual exploration out

[14:30] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Have you tried reading them at the same time?

[14:30] #knownspace> Lensman: I also didn't like Siggy being turned from the dapper, slightly comic gentleman he is in "Neutron Star" and "The Borderland of Sol" into a raving paranoid lunatic. :(

[14:30] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: I wouldn't call it a rehash so much as supplement

[14:31] #knownspace> Louis_Wu: I enjoyed Neutron Star so much that I might hunt someone down if they'd spoiled it for me :)

[14:31] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Ah, I think he had an "Ethics of Madness" flare that was very enjoyable

[14:31] #knownspace> Lensman: "Reading them at the same time?" You mean "Neutron Star"? Well heck, I've practically got that memorized I've read it so often.

[14:32] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Well, I found it interesting to have a copy of Crashlander and JoW open at the same time, going back and forth

[14:33] #knownspace> Louis_Wu: "Juggler of Books"

[14:33] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: : )

[14:34] #knownspace> Lensman: Yeah, well, please understand that in researching the stories for my IKSC, I've read all the stories in the "Neutron Star" collection so many times that I remember them in excruciating detail. That would be true for very few people.

[14:34] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Also, I love learning more about the overall universe. JoW's revelations were very important, in my opinion.

[14:35] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: That would be a lot of Neutron Star..

[14:36] #knownspace> Lensman: The "Secret History of KS" stuff was certainly enjoyable. I just didn't think it needed all that re-hashing. In FOW, Niven & Lerner re-visited "The Borderland of Sol", yet did it in a way that didn't spoil the story for someone who'd never read it. I like that a *lot*! But in JOW, a new reader will get the gist of "Neutron Star", including the denoument, yet will be cheated out of the most exciting parts of the story! And if they do g

[14:37] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Very true.

[14:37] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: For best effect, I would certainly recommend that Crashlander at least be read before FoW and JoW

[14:38] #knownspace> Louis_Wu: Has anyone seen this? ---------> UniverseSandbox.com

[14:38] #knownspace> Lensman: Mind you I didn't *hate* JOW, I've read it twice already. But as compared to FOW, I found JOW disappointing.

[14:38] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: That's nuts Louis

[14:39] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Too bad I'm on an apple, and cannot try it

[14:39] #knownspace> Louis_Wu: Cubes: Its my new favorite toy :)

[14:39] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, on my KS site I strongly recommend starting with the /Neutron Star/ collection, and recommend *against* starting with /Crashlander/ because it has so many spoilers! I say first /Neutron Star/, then /Ringworld/, then /Protector/, then pretty much anything after that.

[14:39] #knownspace> Louis_Wu: Making galaxies collide is quite interesting....

[14:40] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Must have quite a physics engine!

[14:40] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Lens, I have to agree with you.

[14:40] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: In fact, I would say that the books should be read in the order that they were published.

[14:40] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: For the sake of safety

[14:41] #knownspace> Louis_Wu: Lensman: I agree with you, but might add "Tales of Known Space" to begin....

[14:41] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Speaking of which... I wonder if the neutronium blob Louis found in "There is a Tide" was a remnant from Achille's traps

[14:41] #knownspace> Lensman: Publishing order is safest, yes. Certainly you wouldn't want to read JOW before FOW! Oh, that's another objection I have to JOW, that it actually re-hashes part of FOW! Totally unnecessary IMHO.

[14:41] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: hmmm

[14:42] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: As long as it's from a different point of view, I wouldn't call it "rehashing"

[14:43] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: If Niven published another account of the original RW expedition, but from Nessus' point of view, I'd buy it.

[14:43] #knownspace> Louis_Wu: Cubes: Would be boring for all the time Nessus spent with his head up his arse :)

[14:44] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Maybe, maybe not. Plenty of the introspection that we see in FoW and JoW took place when Nessus was in such a state

[14:44] #knownspace> UncleNasty: holy cow - it's packed

[14:45] #knownspace> Louis_Wu: "holy cow" ? Who talks like that? :)

[14:45] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: *raises hand*

[14:45] #knownspace> Louis_Wu: Uncle: Greetings! :)

[14:45] #knownspace> NickE: hi NEIL

[14:45] #knownspace> UncleNasty: How we all doing?

[14:45] #knownspace> NickE: K. Watching Primeval

[14:46] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Good, I would say.

[14:46] #knownspace> Lensman: TOKS has "The Borderland of Sol", and you should definitely read the earlier Beowulf Shaeffer stories before that.

[14:46] #knownspace> UncleNasty: just taken my boy to go flying with cadets - I have to tone down the profanity several notches & it takes a while to get back to default settings

[14:46] #knownspace> Lensman: Sorry for the late response... gf on phone.

[14:46] #knownspace> UncleNasty: has Sean made an appearance yet?

[14:47] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Not in a few hours (at least,) I don't think

[14:47] #knownspace> UncleNasty: ok - well, welcome one and all to the new irc server!

[14:48] #knownspace> UncleNasty: we retired phssthpok over the last few weeks

[14:48] #knownspace> Lensman: Nessus spent most of "The Soft Weapon" tucked into a fetal position, yet the new material re that episode in JOW was certainly interesting! I thought we'd never find out just why Nessus contacted the Outsiders in that story, yet we were finally given the answer.

[14:48] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: at least he died thinking he'd succeeded though

[14:48] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: See? "rehashing" can be interesting

[14:48] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: I loved that part of JoW

[14:49] #knownspace> Louis_Wu: Phssthpok stopped eating?? :)

[14:49] #knownspace> UncleNasty: there's a couple of new toys, too... knownspaceARM is a bot that logs the channel - no worries about skipping logs if someone disconnects

[14:49] #knownspace> Lensman: I need to check out Chatzilla, I guess. Accessing via the Java site at the moment.

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[14:49] #knownspace> UncleNasty: and Brennan is a bot who can answer a few questions if needed

[14:49] #knownspace> rimworlder: sorry lens - stepped away for a bit. to answer the earlier question, I'm in the 8th circle

[14:49] #knownspace> UncleNasty: Hi Dan

[14:49] #knownspace> Dan: Hiya!

[14:50] #knownspace> Louis_Wu: Brennan: Why is the universe so futzy lumpy ?

[14:50] #knownspace> UncleNasty: Lensman: xchat is good - worth checking out

[14:50] #knownspace> UncleNasty: lol

[14:50] #knownspace> Lensman: Rim: Fairly late in the book, then.

[14:50] #knownspace> Dan: Nice to have the day off so that I can attend the chat for a change.

[14:50] #knownspace> UncleNasty: not quite, Louis_Wu

[14:50] #knownspace> UncleNasty: .biblio characters louis

[14:50] #knownspace> Louis_Wu: Tanj...it was worth a try :)

[14:50] #knownspace> UncleNasty: unless he's hung tanjit

[14:50] #knownspace> UncleNasty: hi Brennan

[14:50] #knownspace> Brennan: Hey UncleNasty!

[14:51] #knownspace> UncleNasty: .wik larry niven

[14:51] #knownspace> Brennan: "Laurence van Cott Niven (born April 30, 1938 Los Angeles, California) is a US science fiction author." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_niven

[14:51] #knownspace> UncleNasty: .wik searches wikipedia

[14:51] #knownspace> UncleNasty: .biblio searches the bibliography on larryniven.org, or it should

[14:51] #knownspace> Lensman: Why is the universe so fuzty lumpy? I'm reminded of when Richard Dreyfuss asked Marsha Mason, in "The Goodbye Girl", "What is it that you have that makes me want you so bad I can't make a fist?" She answers "I don't know, but I thank God for it!"

[14:51] #knownspace> Louis_Wu: Unc: Very cool :)

[14:52] #knownspace> Lensman: If it weren't for that lumpiness, we wouldn't be here to ask "Why?"

[14:52] #knownspace> UncleNasty: he'll also do weather reports & some other funkiness

[14:52] #knownspace> UncleNasty: i'm giving him a restart - let's see if that works

[14:53] #knownspace> Lensman: What, no 'bot search of the Incompleat Known Space Concordance? :(

[14:53] #knownspace> Dan: We used to have a bartending bot in the chatroom for my e-zine, but my Web Guru got tired of recompiling him every time he crashed.

[14:53] #knownspace> Lensman: Seriously, that's a great function, I'll have to try to remember it!

[14:53] #knownspace> UncleNasty: if there's a way I can extract the information, I can make him search it

[14:54] #knownspace> UncleNasty: i worked with Mark Firestone to get the biblio interface running

[14:54] Brennan has joined #knownspace

[14:54] #knownspace> Lensman: .biblio borderland

[14:54] #knownspace> Lensman: So how do you use those search functions?

[14:54] #knownspace> UncleNasty: sec, I'll dig out the link with the instructions

[14:55] #knownspace> UncleNasty: hrm http://news.larryniven.org/biblio/main.asp is down which is why the biblio search is failing

[14:55] #knownspace> rimworlder: lens - no - just beginning the descent back into hell - past the winds. but I fell in love with the book the minute I read that poets had to be bleeding in order to talk - ROTFLMAO!

[14:55] #knownspace> UncleNasty: Brennan is a modified version of the phenny bot - he runs most of the same commands, plus the modules I'm adding

[14:56] #knownspace> UncleNasty: http://inamidst.com/phenny/

[14:56] #knownspace> Lensman: I dunno, I found /Escape/ to be a rather slight effort. More polished than /Inferno/, but it seemed to me the authors didn't really have much to say. I hope you like it better!

[14:56] #knownspace> UncleNasty: .translate "C'est magnifiq!"?

[14:57] #knownspace> UncleNasty: gods damnit, he's got stagefright

[14:57] #knownspace> UncleNasty: .t EST

[14:57] #knownspace> Brennan: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 13:57:13 EST

[14:57] #knownspace> Louis_Wu: Ah! ---A Battlestar fan! :)

[14:57] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: haha

[14:57] #knownspace> Lensman: SO SAY WE ALL!

[14:57] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: so say we all

[14:57] #knownspace> rimworlder: lens - it seems a bit slower - but that little bit I mentioned makes it worth the cost. Just ran into Lester - and I was fortunate enough to meet him on several occasions and it was good to see him again, lol

[14:58] #knownspace> Lensman: I dunno, maybe I'm turning into a curmudgeon in my old age. Haven

[14:58] #knownspace> UncleNasty: Brennan: "C'est magnifiq!"?

[14:58] #knownspace> Brennan: UncleNasty: "It is magnificent!" (fr to en, translate.google.com)

[14:58] #knownspace> UncleNasty: w00t

[14:58] #knownspace> Lensman: Haven't cared much for the last 2 Niven novels I've read.

[14:59] #knownspace> rimworlder: which were?

[14:59] #knownspace> UncleNasty: .ety novel

[14:59] #knownspace> Lensman: .wiki <Niven>

[14:59] #knownspace> Brennan: "'new, strange, unusual,' c.1420, but little used before 1600, from M.Fr. novel 'new, fresh, recent' (Fr. nouveau, fem. nouvelle), from O.Fr., from L. novellus 'new, young, recent,' dim. of novus 'new' (see new)." - http://etymonline.com/?term=novel

[14:59] #knownspace> UncleNasty: .wik not .wiki

[14:59] #knownspace> UncleNasty: .wik Niven

[14:59] #knownspace> Brennan: "Archibald C. Niven, US politician" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niven

[14:59] #knownspace> UncleNasty: .wik Larry Niven

[14:59] #knownspace> Lensman: Last two? JOW and /Escape from Hell/.

[14:59] #knownspace> Brennan: "Laurence van Cott Niven (born April 30, 1938 Los Angeles, California) is a US science fiction author." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Niven

[14:59] #knownspace> rimworlder: well, JOW was not as good as FOW

[15:00] #knownspace> rimworlder: jury is still out on EFH

[15:00] #knownspace> UncleNasty: I think JoW stretched a bit too much to tie loose ends together

[15:00] #knownspace> UncleNasty: it was a good read, none the less

[15:00] #knownspace> UncleNasty: .weather CYYZ

[15:00] #knownspace> Brennan: Cloudy, 69.8℉ (21℃), 29.95in (1011mb), Light air 3kt (↑) - CYYZ 14:00, 1800Z

[15:00] #knownspace> Lensman: I'd like to discuss what fannish/SF author references there are in EFH, but I guess it's too early for that. Maybe in another couple of months.

[15:01] #knownspace> Lensman: Oh, "Brennan" is the 'bot response.

[15:01] #knownspace> UncleNasty: Yup

[15:01] #knownspace> Lensman: .wik Borderland of Sol

[15:01] #knownspace> Brennan: "The Borderland of Sol is an English language science fiction novelette written in 1975 by Larry Niven." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Borderland_of_Sol

[15:02] #knownspace> Lensman: .biblio Borderland of Sol

[15:02] #knownspace> UncleNasty: handy toy, no?

[15:02] #knownspace> Lensman: Yup!

[15:02] #knownspace> UncleNasty: Lensman: the biblio page is not working on larryniven.org so he can't get anything from there

[15:02] #knownspace> rimworlder: Lens - that would be fun - after I've seen them all. I want to know how Jerry & Larry decided who they'd stick there this time around - they had a LOT of time to think about it

[15:02] #knownspace> Lensman: Oh, okay.

[15:03] #knownspace> Louis_Wu: Brennan seems to have a labyrinthian mind, but I've never seen him as obedient :)

[15:03] #knownspace> rimworlder: anyone here the parent of a paintballer? (or a paintballer themselves?)

[15:03] #knownspace> UncleNasty: the arm subdued him O:-)

[15:03] #knownspace> Louis_Wu: Unc: lol

[15:04] #knownspace> Louis_Wu: Uncle: Have you seen this? ----> UniverseSandbox.com

[15:04] #knownspace> UncleNasty: and be careful what's said... they record _everything_ ;)

[15:04] #knownspace> Louis_Wu: I cant stop playing with that damn proggy

[15:04] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, actually this is after the end of /Protector/. He's been killed, but they put his head in cryo storage and are running electricity thru his head so he'll answer questions, ala "Dark Star".

[15:04] #knownspace> UncleNasty: Louis_Wu: looking...

[15:04] #knownspace> UncleNasty: .wik phenomenology

[15:04] #knownspace> Brennan: "Phenomenology (philosophy), a philosophical method and school of philosophy founded by Edmund Husserl (1859 – 1938)" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenomenology

[15:05] #knownspace> Louis_Wu: I've loaded the solar system; its pretty cool

[15:05] #knownspace> Dan: Not I, but the "School Bus Stop Ahead" sign across the road from my driveway has become a frequent targer for some drive-by paintballers. :)

[15:05] #knownspace> UncleNasty: Louis_Wu: oh crap -there goes my productivity

[15:05] #knownspace> Louis_Wu: Uncle: I know!!

[15:05] #knownspace> Louis_Wu: Uncle: Colliding galaxies is very inspiring though :)

[15:06] #knownspace> UncleNasty: there's a really cool linux screensaver which is colliding galaxies :)

[15:06] #knownspace> rimworlder: dan - yeah misuse has become a big problem over the years

[15:06] #knownspace> Lensman: Hmph, Wiki's "Phenomenology (psychology)" article doesn't mention "Dark Star"! How incomplete.

[15:06] #knownspace> UncleNasty: lol

[15:07] #knownspace> UncleNasty: ooh! any steampunk fans online?

[15:07] #knownspace> Lensman: Thread convergence: "Dark Star" and colliding galaxies. "And then there was light..."

[15:07] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Uncle: Sorta, why?

[15:07] #knownspace> Lensman: I'm a steampunk fan!

[15:07] #knownspace> UncleNasty: http://brassgoggles.co.uk/blog/200906/9-a-sneak-peek

[15:08] #knownspace> Dan: Well, better to shoot the sign with paintballs than the .44 magnums & .22s that were used when I was a kid myself. I never understood that. If you want to target shoot, why not go someplace that's safe for target shooting?

[15:08] #knownspace> Dan: Steampunker, I.

[15:08] #knownspace> Lensman: For steampunk fans: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKQDqCvGjhM

[15:08] #knownspace> UncleNasty: http://www.filminfocus.com/focusfeatures/film/9

[15:09] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Uncle: Very interesting

[15:09] #knownspace> rimworlder: uncle - I like me some steampunk now and then

[15:09] #knownspace> Dan: Brass Goggles has been having loads of problems, lately. The site is down a lot.

[15:09] #knownspace> UncleNasty: yeah - I have their rss feed, so I just go check when they're up & send me updates

[15:09] #knownspace> rimworlder: dan - they need a park with spy eyes

[15:10] #knownspace> rimworlder: are the steampunk fans familiar with tales of moreauvia?

[15:10] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: hehe

[15:10] #knownspace> Dan: I'm trying to nerve myself up enough to enter one of my steampunk costumes in the LibertyCon costume contest next month.

[15:10] #knownspace> Lensman: For steampunk fans: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2ylO7GoMMw

[15:10] #knownspace> UncleNasty: heh - I bought the HD version off itunes

[15:11] #knownspace> UncleNasty: nice to watch in dvd quality

[15:11] #knownspace> Lensman: Moreauvia? No, I'm not really a rabid steampunk fan. But I easily *could* be, given my love for the Victorian era, and Victorian SF.

[15:11] #knownspace> Dan: I haven't been able to use my steampunk Zorro outfit in any photoshoots yet.

[15:11] #knownspace> rimworlder: steampunk zoro - love it

[15:11] NickE has joined #knownspace

[15:12] #knownspace> UncleNasty: wb NickE

[15:12] #knownspace> Lensman: Steampunk Zorro I'm guessing does *not* ride a horse?

[15:12] #knownspace> NickE: mind reposting that link?

[15:12] #knownspace> Dan: I've been thinking about a steampunk Iron Man outfit, but made from painted & waxed leather rather than metal.

[15:12] #knownspace> NickE: clicking threw me off!

[15:12] #knownspace> Lensman: Nick: Who are you asking to repost a link?

[15:13] #knownspace> NickE: the youtube one just now

[15:13] #knownspace> rimworlder: www.moreauvia.com - mag

[15:13] #knownspace> Dan: Nope, no horse. Although I myself have ridden a few when I was younger.

[15:13] #knownspace> Lensman: Yah, that's one thing I do *not* like about mIRC and links.

[15:13] #knownspace> UncleNasty: Tales of Moreauvia : cooooool

[15:13] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, I posted two YouTube links.

[15:13] #knownspace> UncleNasty: mirc users should try xchat - it's nice

[15:13] #knownspace> NickE: I'm Java-ing

[15:13] #knownspace> rimworlder: my friend Pete Allen edits it - first issue was a reader all the way through

[15:13] #knownspace> rimworlder: its a shared world kind of thing

[15:13] #knownspace> NickE: the steampunk one

[15:14] #knownspace> Dan: Lens, have you tried right-clicking on the link and then "Open in new window" ???

[15:14] #knownspace> Lensman: Aether Oscillators: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKQDqCvGjhM

[15:14] #knownspace> UncleNasty: NickE: go to youtube.com and search "A Gentlemen's Duel"

[15:14] #knownspace> UncleNasty: if you're having link trouble

[15:14] #knownspace> Lensman: "A Gentlemen's Duel": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2ylO7GoMMw

[15:14] #knownspace> Dan: That's a good one, Uncle. I like the animation in that one.

[15:15] #knownspace> UncleNasty: and for anyone who needs an IRC client: http://www.silverex.org/news/

[15:15] #knownspace> rimworlder: so what non-niven things have people been reading?

[15:15] #knownspace> Lensman: In the Java chat, right-clicking does nothing. At least not in WindozXP using FireFox.

[15:15] #knownspace> UncleNasty: rimworlder: i just raided my local second hand bookstore

[15:15] #knownspace> rimworlder: and...?

[15:16] #knownspace> NickE: ads over AFK

[15:16] allyngibson has joined #knownspace

[15:16] #knownspace> Dan: I read my first David Webber book a couple of weeks ago. Not bad, but I got tired of all the sailing-ship combat details towards the end of the book.

[15:16] #knownspace> rimworlder: dan - have you read any Chandler?

[15:16] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, I'm currently trying to slog thru /1634: The Bavarian Crisis/, but after 200 pages of blah blah re local European politics and Catholics-versus-Lutheran religious conflict, I think I'm going to give it up. I have Scalzi's /Old Man's War/ on my to-read pile.

[15:17] #knownspace> rimworlder: Lens, I think you'll like OMW

[15:17] #knownspace> UncleNasty: just digging out the bag... Verne's Journey to the Center of the Earth and 3 old hardbacks of political, social & science philiosophy

[15:17] #knownspace> rimworlder: I tried Webber and its John Grimes in drag...

[15:18] #knownspace> Dan: Which Chandler? A. Bertram or Raymond? I've read some of both.

[15:18] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, I've never read any Scalzi, and he was GOH at our recent ConQuesT, so I thought I should try at least one book. Good friend of mine recommended OMW.

[15:18] #knownspace> rimworlder: uncle - all. I raided the local library - about 50 books for 4 bucks

[15:18] #knownspace> rimworlder: dan A. B.

[15:18] #knownspace> rimworlder: the nick comes from BertraM Chandlers's stuff

[15:18] #knownspace> Dan: Ah, then I've read about six of his, buit only own one.

[15:19] #knownspace> UncleNasty: rimworlder: http://www.librarything.com/work/2802210 I have all but the spirit one

[15:19] #knownspace> rimworlder: opinion vs webber's honorvers?

[15:19] #knownspace> Lensman: Various people on the Niven list also highly recommended the Miles Vorkosigan series, so I picked up /Shards of Honor/. Not sure that's the best book to start the series with-- any advice would be welcome.

[15:19] #knownspace> rimworlder: uncle - spirit?

[15:19] #knownspace> UncleNasty: yeah - it's a set of 4 books, I could only find three of them

[15:20] #knownspace> allyngibson: I tried reading the Vorkosigan books chronologically, and got bored out of my skull

[15:20] #knownspace> rimworlder: ahhh

[15:20] #knownspace> UncleNasty: #4 is in there somewhere

[15:20] #knownspace> rimworlder: well I just snagged a copy of atounding, may 1944 with A.B. Chandler's first story in it - looking forward to the read

[15:20] #knownspace> UncleNasty: nice - I grabbed a few electrical engineering textbooks from before 1940 - they're wonderful

[15:21] #knownspace> Lensman: I absolutely loved the first few "Honor Harrington" books, but then I also like Hornblower et al, so it wasn't as offputting for me. Unfortunatlely every HH book seems to add about 50 more pages of political talk, and after several volumes the series got really bogged down in bloated novels.

[15:21] #knownspace> rimworlder: I know what you mean - books you can smell before you open them!

[15:21] #knownspace> Dan: From what other writers have said about working with Webber, he writes story outlines that make "Dune" look like Flash Fiction. :)

[15:21] #knownspace> rimworlder: dan - lol

[15:22] #knownspace> Lensman: LOL and I've never hear the term "Flash Fiction"-- but I can guess!

[15:22] #knownspace> rimworlder: honorverse and the few others I read were ok - and I don't mind political intrigue so much, but they left me cold after three or four

[15:22] #knownspace> allyngibson: fiction under 600 words

[15:22] #knownspace> Lensman: So, no recommendations for where to start the Vorkosigan saga?

[15:22] #knownspace> Dan: John Ringo said that Webber gave him a 120,000 word outline for a 50,000 word novel.

[15:22] #knownspace> UncleNasty: Lensman: http://www.365tomorrows.com/

[15:22] #knownspace> UncleNasty: new story every day

[15:22] #knownspace> rimworlder: uncle - I have a story over there!

[15:22] #knownspace> Lensman: I'd recommend the first five HH books, but no more than that.

[15:22] #knownspace> rimworlder: lens - good call

[15:22] #knownspace> UncleNasty: rimworlder: cool - which one?

[15:23] #knownspace> rimworlder: its called 'home for sale' - wrote it on a lark and its publication surprised me

[15:23] #knownspace> Dan: Usually, Flash is limited to 1000 words. A good excersise for a writer. Teaches one how to trim excess verbiage.

[15:23] #knownspace> rimworlder: sorry - "house for sale"

[15:23] #knownspace> UncleNasty: .wik flash fiction

[15:23] #knownspace> Brennan: "Flash fiction is fiction of extreme brevity." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_fiction

[15:23] #knownspace> rimworlder: dan - yeah right - I did it in one pass

[15:23] #knownspace> UncleNasty: hehehehe

[15:23] #knownspace> rimworlder: fat lot of good writing that thing did me as a learning exercise

[15:24] #knownspace> Lensman: Humph, Flash is for pikers. Now drabbles-- THAT requires discipline!

[15:24] #knownspace> rimworlder: drabbles? what - 50 words?

[15:24] #knownspace> Lensman: 100 words.

[15:24] #knownspace> rimworlder: ahh - therey're doing twit fiction - not referring to monty python either

[15:25] #knownspace> Dan: The last flash I wrote was for one of my e-zine's editors to use as an example of a steampunk story in his next flash fiction contest.

[15:25] #knownspace> Lensman: Basically your average postcard story, or even shorter. I thought Niven's "Wisdom" was a drabble, but I counted... 102 words IIRC. Probably a postcard story from a con.

[15:26] #knownspace> rimworlder: lol. Here's a short: "There once was a man that absolutely nothing ever happened to."

[15:26] #knownspace> allyngibson: I've written a couple of drabbles, even tried to sell a few to an open anthology a few years ago

[15:26] #knownspace> allyngibson: drabbles take some serious discipline

[15:26] #knownspace> Dan: Once he runs the contest, I'll re-format the story and put on my persoanl biblio page.

[15:26] #knownspace> Lensman: Actually, I don't think drabbles are long enuff to be interesting. Niven's shortest shorts are at least 1 1/2 pages, so around 750-1000 words.

[15:27] #knownspace> rimworlder: I understand the need for word length discipline (did a lot of non-fiction) and for pubbing, but otherwise its a contrived thing: story length is whatever the right length for the story is

[15:27] #knownspace> Dan: I agree, rimworlder.

[15:27] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: agreed Rim

[15:27] #knownspace> Louis_Wu: WTF?? ------> http://prillalar.com/drabbles/

[15:28] #knownspace> rimworlder: I hear that in China, publishers of fiction are literally charging their customers by the word: first chunk for x, then every 6,000 words or so they get charged for

[15:28] #knownspace> UncleNasty: ROFLMAO

[15:28] #knownspace> Lensman: Rim: Yes. Unfortunately, authors often don't seem to know what the right length is. Frex /Building Harlequin's Moon/ should have been a short story of moderate length, less than a novlet.

[15:29] AlexA has joined #knownspace

[15:29] #knownspace> rimworlder: lens - oh sure - but with novels becoming tomes these days, no one really seems to care about chopping for tautness

[15:30] #knownspace> rimworlder: bbiab - have to walk the dog

[15:30] #knownspace> Louis_Wu: "walk the dog" (never heard it called THAT before) :)

[15:30] #knownspace> NickE: Hi XAnder

[15:30] #knownspace> Dan: Actually, I've found that chatrooms are good writing excersises.

[15:30] #knownspace> Louis_Wu: *dives for cover*

[15:30] #knownspace> rimworlder: seriously - Bo the wonder dog - he'll rip your arm off

[15:31] Lensman has joined #knownspace

[15:31] #knownspace> AlexA: Hi all

[15:31] #knownspace> Louis_Wu: "You scream and you leap. great."

[15:31] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, that was rude! I decided to install Chatzilla, it said I had to restart FireFox, and it terminated *all* my FF windows!

[15:32] #knownspace> UncleNasty: Lensman: try xchat - seriously - it's good

[15:32] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: when I picked it up earlier, Lens, it brought all of mine back o_0

[15:32] #knownspace> AlexA: I'm using colloquy on iPod touch

[15:33] #knownspace> Lensman: Okay, now that I've installed ChatZilla, how do I access this chat room via that?

[15:33] #knownspace> AlexA: Ok but still suffer from iPods lack of multitasking

[15:33] #knownspace> UncleNasty: Lensman: tools menu - should show up as one of your addons

[15:33] #knownspace> Dan: I updated my copy of mIRC a few weeks ago - first time in years that I updated it. I wonder if I can re-install that script that made the old version crash?

[15:33] #knownspace> AlexA: If I do anything else I exit chat :(

[15:34] #knownspace> Lensman: Well yes, it brought all my FF windows back, and even re-started the "A Gentlemen's Duel" video, but that didn't stop me from being kicked out of this Java chat room!

[15:34] #knownspace> Lensman: Nobody now here knows how to use ChatZilla?

[15:35] #knownspace> AlexA: Any idea if we're expecting any "names"?

[15:35] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: I use an apple

[15:35] #knownspace> Dan: The java chat applet needs a browser window to work inside, I guess.

[15:35] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: I don't know if mine's the same

[15:35] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: For me it was in Firefox tools

[15:36] #knownspace> UncleNasty: Lensman: go to irc://irc.larryniven.org in firefox

[15:36] #knownspace> Dan: Lens, I used Chatzilla a few years ago, just testing it out. As I recall, it's a lot like mIRC or PIRCH.

[15:36] tempNasty_ has joined #knownspace

[15:36] #knownspace> tempNasty_: like this

[15:37] #knownspace> Lensman: I didn't get any response from Larry or Ed, so hopefully they'll show up.

[15:37] #knownspace> UncleNasty: .wik ed lerner

[15:37] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry never responds that he *is* coming, but sometimes responds he isn't. If he's out of town, he doesn't respond.

[15:37] #knownspace> Brennan: "Edward M. Lerner (born 1949) is a US author of science fiction and techno-thrillers." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_M._Lerner

[15:38] #knownspace> Lensman: Ed generally responds if he's not coming, which he didn't.

[15:38] #knownspace> AlexA: So no news is good news in this case

[15:38] #knownspace> Dan: Unfortunately, I switched from the Mozilla Suite that had Chatzilla as an applet to Firefox and Thunderbird. Since I'm so used to mIRC, I never installed Chatzilla as a Firefox add-on.

[15:38] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: I was starting to wonder if this was the right day, Lens >.<

[15:38] #knownspace> Lensman: I'm sure ChatZilla is a lot like mIRC. I just don't know how to access the channel in ChatZilla.

[15:39] #knownspace> UncleNasty: type /join #knownspace

[15:39] #knownspace> Lensman: I used to use mIRC on my old 'puter, but have been told ChatZilla is better.

[15:40] #knownspace> AlexA: You'll need to enter irc.larryniven.org as the channel and #knownspace as the room

[15:40] #knownspace> Lensman: "[ERROR] Command 201cjoin201d must be run in the context of an attached server."

[15:41] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: /attach irc.larryniven.org

[15:41] #knownspace> UncleNasty: /server irc.larryniven.org

[15:41] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: /join #knownspace

[15:41] #knownspace> Dan: UncleNasty seems to have the best grasp of the commands. As he said, once you connect to the server, all you need is the /join and the channel name.

[15:41] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: that's what worked for me Lens

[15:41] #knownspace> AlexA: ^that's how colloquy does it

[15:42] #knownspace> UncleNasty: this is why I keep recommending xchat - it's _just_ an irc client - it allows you to specify auto-join servers and channels and it's pretty stable

[15:42] #knownspace> Dan: I see that Cubes also has the know-how. :)

[15:43] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Well, there is a link to webpage full of the commands. This is the first time I've used an IRC thing... whatever this is

[15:43] #knownspace> AlexA: Based on recent stuff on LNL, a few of us are keen to know more about Home colony

[15:43] #knownspace> Dan: I've been using scripted /connect & /join commands for so long I doubt that I'd be able to remember half of the stuff I've got pre-scripted for mIRC to do.

[15:44] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: absolutely!

[15:44] Merlin_McCarley has joined #knownspace

[15:44] #knownspace> UncleNasty: what's the big questions wrt home colony?

[15:44] #knownspace> UncleNasty: hi Merlin_McCarley

[15:44] #knownspace> AlexA: Maybe we should nudge Organlegger and Ed if they turn up :)

[15:44] #knownspace> Dan: When was Home re-colonized, for one question.

[15:45] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: last we knew, Bey was there, Carlos was there, Nessus and his kids were there, AND Louis and Nike were on their way there

[15:45] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: That's what I want to know, Dan.

[15:45] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Should be a WB but I'll take it UncleNasty.

[15:45] #knownspace> AlexA: Home was wiped out in Protector but is ok later (what CubesForsythe said)

[15:46] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Right, it seems strange to me

[15:46] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Well, if you take some of the MKW work as cannon. It was repopulated after Peace Corbin rendered the Protector virus inert.

[15:46] #knownspace> UncleNasty: yeah - was re-established afterwards - it may be in the timeline in n-space

[15:46] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: why send everyone that we care about to a formerly dead world which is a confirmed target of the oncoming Pak fleet

[15:46] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: (assuming their scouts reported back)

[15:46] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: They did not know about the oncoming Pak.

[15:47] #knownspace> UncleNasty: CubesForsythe: because brennan's message was never received in known space

[15:47] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: I mean, why would Niven do it

[15:47] #knownspace> AlexA: I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants LNs own take

[15:47] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Exactly, AlexA

[15:47] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, the reference in "Fly-By-Night" suggests it was re-colonized a century before that story.

[15:48] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Well, I live in hope that DoW will cover some of those things.

[15:48] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Merlin: Same here, same here.

[15:48] #knownspace> UncleNasty: I'm pretty sure that we get Brennan 's message in a bottle vie the omniscient narrator, rather than as something that is widely known

[15:48] #knownspace> UncleNasty: via*

[15:48] #knownspace> Dan: Larry might not do write-ups of a timeline for his own reference. I mean, *I* do, but not all writers think that way.

[15:49] #knownspace> UncleNasty: unless it's something held in an ARM data vault and not in general circulation

[15:49] #knownspace> Lensman: Right, I don't think knowledge of the Pak invasion fleet was common knowledge. Apparently we'll find out in the forthcoming /Destroyer of Worlds/!

[15:49] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: here's a question:

[15:49] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: "Apparently" from one of the writers ;) hehe

[15:49] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Louis speculated on it: Is a protector running the ARM?

[15:49] #knownspace> Lensman: UN may be right. The ARM may know about Pak invasion fleet. We must presume the text of /Protector/ was sent via message laser back to Sol system.

[15:50] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Lens: A laser that the Belt didn't see?

[15:50] #knownspace> Dan: Wouldn't the beam have spread so much that it would be difficult to restrict access to it?

[15:50] #knownspace> AlexA: Hmm how tight is a message laser beam?

[15:51] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Well the message would have been sent from a protector. And could have been sent off the orbital plane directly to theARM.

[15:51] #knownspace> UncleNasty: okay _ found a date for home recolonization

[15:51] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Even if a laser isn't pointed directly at you, you can still see it flash

[15:51] #knownspace> Lensman: Cubes: I don't have a good answer for you. But we know it's not common knowledge. Maybe it was encrypted so only the ARM could decipher it?

[15:51] #knownspace> AlexA: Where was the message sent from? Home?

[15:51] #knownspace> UncleNasty: 2589

[15:51] #knownspace> Lensman: Alex: No way is a laser beam "tight" over interstellar distances. It spreads.

[15:52] #knownspace> UncleNasty: and home failed in 2351

[15:52] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: My guess is that we have Truesdale's account via the narrator

[15:52] #knownspace> AlexA: I realize that - diffraction limit

[15:52] #knownspace> UncleNasty: but that's from "The guide to Larry Niven's Ringworld" which is probably not canon

[15:52] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Sent from either from a Home protector or Brennan's decendant. Did not have to originate from Home itself. It just chronicals the events.

[15:52] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: and that Truesdale, in the story, has not yet been defeated by the fleet

[15:52] #knownspace> Lensman: Message was sent from hear Home, or on the way to intercept the Pak invasion fleet. The Pak *did* attack Home, according to Truesdale's story.

[15:53] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Lens: they did

[15:53] #knownspace> Dan: Hmmm... Excersise for the brainiacs among us; Plot the location of Home, then plot the angle that a message laser beam sent from there would intersect the Solar System.

[15:53] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Truesdala and his army set up mock cities and such to defeat the scouts

[15:53] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: My galactic motion math's isn't up to it.

[15:53] #knownspace> Lensman: Date of failure of Home colony is in dispute. I have it at 2361.

[15:54] #knownspace> AlexA: How far is home from Earth Dan ?

[15:54] #knownspace> UncleNasty: Lensman: yeah like I say the timeline in this guide is probably not canon

[15:54] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Well, Lens and UN - all we have is Truesdale's skewed dating

[15:54] #knownspace> Dan: Oh, I can define the problem, but I haven't the wit to solve it. LOL!

[15:54] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: they were moving at relativistic speeds

[15:54] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: he said that he would go by ships time and fix the calender when he reached home

[15:54] senax has joined #knownspace

[15:55] #knownspace> UncleNasty: hi senax

[15:55] #knownspace> senax: Howdy all

[15:55] #knownspace> AlexA: I can do the math, but need numbers to work with

[15:55] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Is there an expected Publish date for DoW yet?

[15:55] #knownspace> UncleNasty: hey that's another trick Brennan can do

[15:55] #knownspace> Lensman: At the risk of hubris, my Timeline is better researched than anyone else's.

[15:55] #knownspace> UncleNasty: .calc 2+2

[15:55] #knownspace> Brennan: 2+2 = 4

[15:56] #knownspace> Dan: Lens, that ain't hubris. Just fact.

[15:56] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: .calc 4*2

[15:56] #knownspace> Brennan: 4*2 = 8

[15:56] #knownspace> Lensman: Well no, we know the distance to Home, and we know how fast Pssthpok's ship traveled, and that Brennan's was at least that fast.

[15:56] #knownspace> AlexA: Ha ha. I meant distance from Home to Earth

[15:57] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: The point is that a laser would have been seen by the belt, I think.

[15:57] #knownspace> UncleNasty: AlexA: 11.4 light years (not verified)

[15:57] #knownspace> Lensman: Home to Sol System is 11.8 light years.

[15:57] #knownspace> Dan: Need not only the distance, but the latitude & longitude above or below the plain of the ecliptic, wouldn't you?

[15:57] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: But what is the angle from the orbital disc? That determines the visibility.

[15:57] dmac44 has joined #knownspace

[15:57] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: If, somehow, the ARM and only the ARM got it, I doubt that it would become *public* knowledge.

[15:58] #knownspace> UncleNasty: hi dmac44

[15:58] #knownspace> dmac44: hi guys

[15:58] #knownspace> Lensman: The angle is only important if the laser wouldn't spread to the Belt if it were sent at a 90 degree angle.

[15:58] #knownspace> Dan: I'm dislexic, and my math skills are crap.

[15:59] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: The belt is a network of telescopes, I doubt it would be missed anywhere, and it would probably be repeating

[15:59] #knownspace> UncleNasty: Lensman: only off by 3.7 * 10^12 km, so no biggy ;)

[16:00] #knownspace> Lensman: If you can demonstrate that a message laser from a distance of 11.8 light years won't spread far enuff to hit the inner edge of the populated Belt if aimed directly at Sol at a right angle, then the angle is important. But I think the spread would be too much.

[16:00] #knownspace> Lensman: We need to look at "Madness Has Its Place" for discussion of message lasers and interception by the Belt.

[16:01] #knownspace> Dan: I would theorize that unless the message beam were directed either above or below the Solar system towards a known ATM satillite, the whole system ould have been able to recieve the message.

[16:01] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: but Truesdale isn't involved in the ARM

[16:01] #knownspace> AlexA: I can work out spread, but will have to quit chat to look stuff up

[16:01] #knownspace> Dan: Given, yes Cubes.

[16:02] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: These are Human Pak we are talking about. They could have sent a reflector/relay up in advance of sending. Or sent the relay with instructions to send the message when it arived at cordinates they set.

[16:02] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, the 11.8 is from the /Ringworld Role-playing Game/. I won't claim a great degree of accuracy. A better question is, what was the distance estimated at when /Protector/ was written?

[16:02] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: He would have sent the message so that it had every chance of getting seen

[16:02] #knownspace> Lensman: So 11.4 might be a better figure, I dunno.

[16:02] #knownspace> AlexA: Brb

[16:02] Hippy has joined #knownspace

[16:02] #knownspace> UncleNasty: hi Hippy

[16:03] #knownspace> Lensman: So, who would Truesdale or the Home protectors send their message to? The ARM or the entire Sol System?

[16:03] #knownspace> Hippy: Hi, UncleN.

[16:03] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: I say the whole system

[16:03] #knownspace> Hippy: How's it going, everyone?

[16:03] #knownspace> UncleNasty: Lensman: I'm using numbers from http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/n/larry-niven/guide-to-larry-nivens-ri...

[16:03] #knownspace> Lensman: Hi Hippy! I personally am fine, how is your vision?

[16:03] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: If just the ARM gets it they could sit on it for a while, who knows - but they'd have a choice

[16:03] #knownspace> Dan: Unless you want to postulate that Truedale could keep a laser focused tightly enough to have only hit Earth and not the rest of the system... And that would be one impressive bit of targeting!

[16:04] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: If the whole system gets all of Truesdale's report, where's their free will?

[16:04] #knownspace> Dan: Where is the free will of *any* Protector?

[16:04] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Right, Home didn't get a choice - why would Earth?

[16:04] #knownspace> UncleNasty: Dan: he could fire two lasers that intersected on sol and only at the intersection point would the message be readable - frequency modulation using light interference

[16:04] #knownspace> Lensman: UN: Not to say you shouldn't, but Larry himself warned me not to rely on what's in that. John Hewitt consulted directly with Larry at length over the material in the /Ringworld RPG/, so I consider that semi-canonical.

[16:05] #knownspace> Hippy: We've got a good turnout today

[16:05] #knownspace> Dan: BRB, the beer pixies have emptied my drink while I wasn't looking. :)

[16:05] #knownspace> UncleNasty: Lensman: yeah - that's why i said probably not canon - istr it was said it was only assumtions

[16:05] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: I see a possibility of something remaining of Kobold or other of Brennan's works remaining that could have been set up to receive data from outsystem.

[16:06] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, I would assume, as Dan does, that the message laser hit much of Sol System, Earth *and* the Belt. Unless someone can prove mathematically that it's possible to hit the Earth but not the Belt.

[16:06] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: And the Belt and ARM would be watching for anything that looked like Brennan made it.

[16:07] #knownspace> Hippy: Are we talking about the 'maser' that alerted the Outsiders to our presence?

[16:07] #knownspace> UncleNasty: Hippy: whether or not the tale in protector is common knowledge or not

[16:08] #knownspace> UncleNasty: one too many 'or not's there methinks

[16:08] #knownspace> Dan: Back... I like Uncle's theory of two intersecting beams, but it does seem like a lot of effort for a message that was meant for everyone in the system- As I assumed that Truesdale's message was meant to reach us all rather than just the ARMs.

[16:08] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: That was a starseed that was lured into human habitation by the Puppetters, not a maser correct?

[16:08] #knownspace> Lensman: I think /Protector/ specifies that Kobold was destroyed, but certainly Brennan could have left other things behind. In fact, I find it hard to believe he did *not* leave a "package" in stasis to ensure another protector would be "born" if he didn't return. Some poor sap asleep in a chamber full of tree-of-life, and the stasis field will go off if Brennan didn't return in X number of years.

[16:08] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah. . .I would say 'not common knowledge'

[16:09] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: the duplicate stonehenge

[16:09] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Yes, Brennan thought far ahead. I can't see him not setting up contigencies.

[16:09] #knownspace> Lensman: But the thing is, no I can NOT believe the ARM was run by a Protector later on. It's impossible to believe that protector-run ARM wouldn't have pursued the Man-Kzin War to the extermination of the Kzinti.

[16:09] senax has joined #knownspace

[16:09] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: a package orbiting a blob of neutronium out past persephone

[16:09] #knownspace> NickE: wb

[16:09] #knownspace> UncleNasty: wb senax

[16:09] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Truesdaly already guessed these things

[16:10] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Dan: why would Truesdale say "I love you" to the ARM?

[16:10] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: he meant his message for humanity

[16:10] #knownspace> Lensman: No, we're not talking about attracting the Outsiders to We Made It. We're talking about the message sent by Truesdale-monster to Sol System at the end of /Protector/, warning of the Pak invasion fleet.

[16:10] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah, yes

[16:11] #knownspace> Hippy: I'd forgotten he'd done that

[16:11] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Lensman: very good point about the man Kzin wars.

[16:11] #knownspace> Hippy: The one I'm talking about might be in 'World of Ptavvs' anyway

[16:11] #knownspace> Dan: Exactly, Cubes. That's what made me believe that he would have allowed the beam to spread far enough to hit the who solar system rather than play funky tricks in order to reach the ARMs alone.

[16:11] #knownspace> Hippy: It's very early here. . .

[16:11] #knownspace> Dan: who=whole

[16:12] EML has joined #knownspace

[16:12] #knownspace> Lensman: Oh, to answer an earlier point: Yes, absolutely the neutronium "moon" in "There Is a Tide" *must* be a Puppeteer trap. It's impossible for a 10 foot sphere of neutronium to exist naturally, it has to be stabilized inside a stasis field.

[16:12] #knownspace> UncleNasty: Dan: this is why i'm assuming we know it via the ON rather than it being common knowlwdge

[16:12] #knownspace> NickE: Hi Ed

[16:12] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: welcome EML!

[16:12] #knownspace> UncleNasty: Hi Ed!

[16:12] #knownspace> Hippy: Mornig, Ed

[16:12] #knownspace> EML: 12Hi, all.

[16:12] #knownspace> dmac44: If he was worried that a stron enough Pak fleet had killed him and his colleagues I think he would have sent it back to the whole of Sol system

[16:12] #knownspace> UncleNasty: welcome to the all-new irc server

[16:12] #knownspace> Lensman: Good point, the "I love you" indicates the message was for humanity.

[16:12] #knownspace> Lensman: HI ED!!

[16:12] #knownspace> Dan: Hiya, Ed. How's tricks?

[16:12] #knownspace> dmac44: Hey Ed

[16:13] #knownspace> EML: 12Juggler directly addresses the origins of the neutronium sphere(s).

[16:13] #knownspace> Dan: Unfortunately, I can see both sides to the arguement.

[16:13] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Ah, perfect

[16:13] #knownspace> Lensman: To repeat the point so Ed can read it: Yes, absolutely the neutronium "moon" in "There Is a Tide" *must* be a Puppeteer trap. It's impossible for a 10 foot sphere of neutronium to exist naturally, it has to be stabilized inside a stasis field.

[16:13] #knownspace> Dan: And I can't seperate my opinion as a reader from the possibilities presented by either theory.

[16:14] #knownspace> EML: 12Lens: that was the first message I saw after logging in -- that's why I wrote as i did.

[16:14] #knownspace> Lensman: Yet somehow the knowledge of the Pak invasion was suppressed. Clearly in /Ringworld/, knowledge of the Pak invasion fleet isn't common knowledge.

[16:14] #knownspace> Lensman: Or in "Madness Has Its Place" either.

[16:14] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Humm, from the ending paragraph it sounds like the message was contigent on the Human Proctors loosing enough resourses that Earth or other Human populations would become the last hope.

[16:15] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Then what do you think of this: Did Truesdale's message about the Pak invasion really get transmitted, or just given to us via narration?

[16:15] #knownspace> EML: 12The Pak invasion ... that'll be addressed in Destroyer of Worlds.

[16:15] #knownspace> NickE: cool

[16:15] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: About time!

[16:15] #knownspace> UncleNasty: EML: release date? O:-)

[16:15] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: To us, only as a narative.

[16:15] #knownspace> Dan: LOL! Dislexia strikes again! I read Ed's "Juggler directly addresses..." as *Jupiter* directly addresses...

[16:16] #knownspace> EML: 12DOW is tentaively scheduled for November 10. Larry and I have the typeset page proofs in hand.

[16:16] #knownspace> UncleNasty: sweet

[16:16] #knownspace> Dan: Who says that this particular handicap can't be entertaining? :)

[16:16] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: So, Ed, to make the most out of the Destroyer of Worlds experience, what books should we have already read, and what in what order would you say? It sounds very exciting.

[16:16] #knownspace> UncleNasty: Dan: you ever lay awake at night pondering if there's a dog?

[16:17] #knownspace> UncleNasty: ;)

[16:17] #knownspace> Lensman: Hmmm... that's a point. *Was* it transmitted? It was recorded for a contingency, if it looked to the Home protectors like they were going to lose. So maybe they never felt threatened enuff to trasmit it? Maybe, but is that really how a Protector thinks? Wouldn't it be better to transmit it early, to make sure it *can* be transmitted?

[16:17] #knownspace> Dan: Nah, I know there's a dog. I have to take him walkies. :)

[16:17] #knownspace> EML: 12Cubes: first the manadatory disclaimer -- we mean every book to readokay standalone ...

[16:17] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Seems to me that JoW was a primer for most of KS.

[16:17] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Of course, but I want all of the information that I can possibly get my hands on!

[16:17] #knownspace> EML: 12That said, Destroyer is directly a sequel to Juggler and Protector.

[16:17] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: As I said, the book ends with that being a congient "If you get this message" thing.

[16:18] #knownspace> EML: 12Merlin: a prefer "secret history" to "primer."

[16:18] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: hehe

[16:18] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Will it touch on others though? For example, for Juggler all of Crashlander and some others like the Soft Weapon were included as well.

[16:19] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Poor wording on my part. Bad Geek!

[16:19] #knownspace> Lensman: Okay, re-reading the end of /Protector/, they are *not* gonna send the message early, but say if they lose a battle some survivor will beam the info back.

[16:19] #knownspace> EML: 12Ah ... "if you get this message ..." Protector, eh? Nothing says that message WAS sent. Think about the narrative possibilities under which it wasn't :-)

[16:20] #knownspace> Lensman: So I guess Occam's Razor says they never lost a major battle.

[16:20] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: I have been. That is what intrigues me.

[16:20] #knownspace> Lensman: JOW does indeed comprise a "Secret History of Known Space".

[16:21] #knownspace> Dan: Hmmm... cognitive dissonance! We possess the knowledge, so why would we think the message was never sent? OUCH! It hurts to stretch my brain that far! LOL!

[16:21] #knownspace> EML: 12I'm just gonna say Destroyer builds on Protector (and does not contradict it). I'm NOT gonna say how. It'd spoil some of the fun.

[16:21] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: hehe

[16:21] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Get the branding irons, we will weasel more out of ye Ed.

[16:21] #knownspace> rimworlder: Hi EML

[16:21] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: ;)

[16:22] #knownspace> Lensman: That is, Occam's Razor says the message was recorded but never transmitted. That seems to be a simpler explanation than to explain why, if it *was* sent, that info isn't common knowledge in Human Space.

[16:22] #knownspace> senax: sorry, gotta run. Bye.

[16:22] #knownspace> UncleNasty: much easier to say we know of it because of the omniscient narrator

[16:22] #knownspace> Lensman: No cognitive dissonance here! We know plenty of stuff about KS that the average Human citizen does not.

[16:23] #knownspace> EML: 12Or the omniscient reader :-)

[16:23] #knownspace> UncleNasty: far fewer loose ends to clear up

[16:23] #knownspace> UncleNasty: heh

[16:23] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: So it's a sequel to Juggler and Protector. What does that imply? New Terra runs into the Home-Protector fleet or what? o_0

[16:23] #knownspace> Dan: Ed, no offence, but I'll stick to writing straightforward multiverse/time travel/alternate universe stories and leave the complicated stuff to you and Larry and Jerry.

[16:23] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Indeed, like much of Puppeteer history.

[16:24] AlexA has joined #knownspace

[16:24] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Dan, what do you write? If Time Travel does not warp your brain I am having trouble seeing how Larry and Ed's work does.

[16:24] #knownspace> UncleNasty: wb AlexA

[16:24] #knownspace> EML: 12It's for the best that I not say how proeectors enter into Destroyer. trust me.

[16:24] #knownspace> UncleNasty: O_o

[16:24] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Or more accurate query what name do you write under Dan?

[16:24] #knownspace> Lensman: It implies that the Puppeteers detect one or more Pak ships, perhaps remnents of the Pak invasion fleet, and they get the New Terrans to investigate and/or intercept the Pak invaders.

[16:24] #knownspace> UncleNasty: EML: are you trying to get the pre-order numbers up? ;)

[16:25] #knownspace> AlexA: Ooh EML in da house! :)

[16:25] #knownspace> EML: 12Nasty: I'm emoticon-impaired, I guess. What is O_o

[16:25] #knownspace> NickE: guaranteed sales here :-)

[16:25] #knownspace> UncleNasty: EML: O_o == lookin at you funny

[16:25] #knownspace> EML: 12Ah, a squint eye. Got it.

[16:25] #knownspace> Dan: Merlin, I'm strictly an amateur writer. All my stuff except for works-in-progress is available for free online over at Aphelion Webzine.

[16:26] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: No worries from most in this room I gather. I will get it week 1.

[16:26] #knownspace> Lensman: I thought --> O_o <-- meant "Huh??" or "WTF?"

[16:26] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Here's a question about the Pak: The fleet obviously knew about Phssthpok and his rescue mission, and (we suppose) followed him to earth. Did the library on Pak have records of the expedition that built the Ringworld?

[16:26] #knownspace> dmac44: Ed, I know you won't tell us anything that's in Destroyer but can you tell us everything that isn't in it? :)

[16:26] #knownspace> UncleNasty: Lensman: could do - there's a whole host of horizontal smilies

[16:26] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Thanks Dan, will have a look.

[16:26] #knownspace> AlexA: Fwiw I make spread of message laser from Home at Earth as ~0.5 AU

[16:26] #knownspace> rimworlder: dmac44 - that's what those guys get paid for - lol

[16:27] #knownspace> Lensman: The Great Library had records of the Ringworld expedition, yes. Those records are what prompted Pssthpok to undertake his mission.

[16:27] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Ed already told us (pretty much) that the message was not sent, anyway AlexA - thanks for the numbers though o_o

[16:27] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: So if aimed at midpoint between the sun and earth it would be seen by a Large population of Belters still.

[16:27] #knownspace> AlexA: So it wouldn't hit belt unless the sender retargetted

[16:27] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: If it were sent.

[16:27] #knownspace> Dan: To make it easy on you, I'm Aphelion's senior editor and publisher; Dan L. Hollifield.

[16:27] #knownspace> EML: 12Okay here's one thing NOT in Destroyer: You won't learn much more about the Library. For that you'll have to wait for Betrayer of Worlds :-)

[16:28] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: o_o

[16:28] #knownspace> Dan: Half an AU? that is one tight beam!

[16:28] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: :s

[16:28] #knownspace> AlexA: Ah Eml has the inside track

[16:28] #knownspace> NickE: Well writing it helps

[16:28] #knownspace> rimworlder: FOW, JOW, DOW, BOW - what's next - WOW?

[16:28] #knownspace> dmac44: Ed: Nice tease

[16:28] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Betrayer... the Library?

[16:29] #knownspace> AlexA: Dan: I could be wrong but it looks that way

[16:29] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: You've just unlocked a whole new wing to the playground, Ed!

[16:29] #knownspace> Lensman: Well... thinking about the gravity lens telescope in /Protector/, maybe they *could* focus a message beam that tightly. But I don't think they did.

[16:29] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: *goes for the swingset*

[16:29] #knownspace> rimworlder: Cubes - I think he does that every month

[16:29] #knownspace> EML: 12WOW would be cool, but (if there is a #5) it'll besomething else.

[16:29] #knownspace> Dan: At half an AU, then secrets are indeed possible!

[16:30] #knownspace> rimworlder: EML - I was going for the pun dangit

[16:30] #knownspace> AlexA: I assumed a 1m diameter telescope

[16:30] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Pak library found in Pak fleet remains.... Film at 2300.

[16:30] #knownspace> AlexA: The beam would scale propotionately

[16:30] #knownspace> dmac44: Sounds like maybe the Pak took their Library with them and lost it to the New Terrans/Gwo'th

[16:30] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: "<EML> Ah ... "if you get this message ..." Protector, eh? Nothing says that message WAS sent. Think about the narrative possibilities under which it wasn't :-)"

[16:30] #knownspace> EML: 12Speaking as a CS guy here, not as an author, no matter HOW wide the beam is, you can keep secrets if you use proper encryption.

[16:31] #knownspace> rimworlder: oh if that isn't a hint...

[16:31] #knownspace> AlexA: So 10m = 0.05 AU

[16:31] #knownspace> dmac44: Ed: But who has the key on the other end?

[16:31] #knownspace> Lensman: Ed didn't say it wasn't sent, but he strongly implied that it *might* not have been sent! But reading the end of /Protector/, it's strongly implied there anyway.

[16:31] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Burried at the dup stonehinge?

[16:31] #knownspace> AlexA: Brennan wanted his warning to be heard

[16:31] #knownspace> AlexA: Iirc

[16:32] #knownspace> rimworlder: maybe the key is in the map room...

[16:32] #knownspace> EML: 12I could drive you guys crazy with disinformation here ... that'd be mean.

[16:32] #knownspace> rimworlder: ed - no, no it wouldn't - it would be justice

[16:32] #knownspace> UncleNasty: but oh, so funny :P

[16:32] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Again, why would Truesdale A) give the ARM a free choice to make the wrong choice and B) tell the ARM that he loves them? I makes much more sense that he would send the message to everyone to force the world into action and that he meant the "i love you" for humanity

[16:32] #knownspace> Lensman: Truesdale recorded that message, not Brennan. So if he encoded it, it would have to be decoded by the ARM or by something left behind by Brennan... not left by Truesdale, who wasn't a protector when he left Sol System.

[16:32] #knownspace> Dan: Or hidden in the measurements of the dupe Stonehenge, perhaps. Ah! I knew that reading all those conspiracy theory web pages for run would come in handy one day! LOL!

[16:33] #knownspace> AlexA: Anyway I'll check my maths and post something on LNL next week

[16:33] #knownspace> rimworlder: Cubes - there could be multiple layers to the message

[16:33] #knownspace> AlexA: Oops I'm mixing up my Protectors

[16:34] #knownspace> Lensman: "I love you" certainly *sounds* like Truesdale meant it for the entire Sol System, not just the ARM or just for the Belt politicians.

[16:34] #knownspace> Dan: Ack! Beer pixies again! LOL! Why do I drink so fast when someone makes me think so hard? :)

[16:34] #knownspace> EML: 12Just so it doesn't get lost in the shuffle ... FYI, Juggler came out in MM PB this week.

[16:34] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: It's possible, but if we assume that the message was not sent (just that we read it because we're the narrator's audience) then there's more to work with. Remember, he only would have sent it if he was killed and the fight lost

[16:34] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: "I Love You" sent to my relataves and variations of my genome.

[16:35] #knownspace> Lensman: Ed: Any changes to the text for the PB edition, as there was for FOW?

[16:35] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Changes to the text?

[16:35] #knownspace> rimworlder: eml - lol - I saw it a few days ago and almost bought it - (thinking delusionally that it was #3) - ended up getting Escape From Hell instgead

[16:35] #knownspace> AlexA: Anyway my recall is that the sender wanted it to be heard. So sent in "clear" to Earth/moon

[16:35] #knownspace> EML: 12Um, guys ... why worry about whether the message was sent when Alice is last seen returning to the inner solar system with much of the story?

[16:35] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: .....

[16:36] #knownspace> Lensman: As I said, I'm assuming the message was *not* transmitted. And I agree, that assumption leaves more "working room" for the authors.

[16:36] #knownspace> EML: 12(Mind you, *I* have an answer to that.)

[16:36] #knownspace> Dan: Thanks, Ed. *Some* of us are forced by financial reasons to always wait for the paperback editions.

[16:36] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: I forgot about her.

[16:36] #knownspace> AlexA: I haven't read Juggler yet -waiting for PB

[16:36] #knownspace> rimworlder: EML - you sound like a Washington insider trying very hard NOT to leak something to the press - wink wink nudge nudge

[16:37] #knownspace> EML: 12can't have too much buzz, right?

[16:37] #knownspace> UncleNasty: hrm

[16:37] #knownspace> Lensman: Changes to text: The first page of the PB edition of FOW has an added sentence or two, clarifying that the /Long Pass/ was an experimental "safe ramscoop" vessel, altho launched centuries before "The Ethics of Madness".

[16:37] #knownspace> rimworlder: oh no - I'll be doing my bit later tonite or tomorrow

[16:37] #knownspace> Dan: i wish I could afford to buy (& shelve) hardbacks so that I could pay you guys for your work faster than I do, but there's only so much cash in my budget.

[16:37] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Ah, okay, thanks Lensman

[16:38] #knownspace> AlexA: Has EML said anything about the "coincidence" of everyone important heading for Home?

[16:38] #knownspace> rimworlder: dan - you're part of the long tail - that's what counts in the long run

[16:38] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: No, we haven't brought it up until now AlexA

[16:38] Jim has joined #knownspace

[16:38] #knownspace> UncleNasty: hi Jim

[16:38] #knownspace> Lensman: Cubes: I know that because I e-mailed Ed about the discrepancy, and he said one or two other fans had raised the same point, so he and Larry decided to add a bit to the PB edition to clarify the point. I dunno if there are any other text changes.

[16:38] #knownspace> EML: 12AlexA: who is everyone?

[16:38] #knownspace> Hippy: G'day, Jim

[16:38] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Bey, Carlos, Nessus, his kids, all on Hom

[16:39] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Home* not to mention that Louis and the Hindmost are on their way there

[16:39] #knownspace> Jim: hi, all

[16:39] #knownspace> EML: 12Bey and Carlos went together, and because Home is Earthlike (Sharrol being a flatphobe).

[16:39] #knownspace> Lensman: I must have missed the discussion about everyone important heading for Home.

[16:39] #knownspace> AlexA: CubesForsythe: Has it

[16:39] #knownspace> rimworlder: lens - "everyone important is heading for home"

[16:39] #knownspace> Dan: Lens, wasn't a discussion, more of an observation and a question.

[16:40] #knownspace> EML: 12As for Nessus, centuries later (after RW), I'm unconvinced that information is credible. Hindmosts lie.

[16:40] #knownspace> AlexA: LOL rimworlder

[16:40] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Right, and Nessus took his and the Hindmost's children there because it was safe - now Louis and Hindmost are en route as well, in the Long Shot

[16:40] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, but Bey, Sharrol & kids went to Home centuries before Louis & Hindmost.

[16:40] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: But he and Louis are going there in Long Shot

[16:40] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Why would the Hidmost have Louis fly him to Home in the most wanted ship in known space for nothing?

[16:41] #knownspace> AlexA: Different time periods yes Lensman , but still odd

[16:41] #knownspace> Lensman: Sure, Hindmost might have lied about Nessus and his kids being there in stasis. And anything could happen before they get there... look at what happened to Bey on the way to Home from Fafnir!

[16:41] #knownspace> EML: 12Hindmost has been stuck on RW, presumed lost, for years. Lots may have changed in that time.

[16:41] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Who says they are dead though? Medicine is good, and Carlos is an autodoc expert by now

[16:42] #knownspace> Lensman: Cubes: Well, if you want Bey and loved ones to survive till the Ringworld era, it's easy: Just stick 'em all in a stasis field.

[16:42] #knownspace> AlexA: I really want to know how Home colony was refounded and what was found

[16:42] #knownspace> EML: 12AlexA -- Home refounded will be addressed in destroyer of Worlds.

[16:42] #knownspace> UncleNasty: what relation is louis wu to truesdale? (if any)

[16:42] #knownspace> Dan: Call me a sad fanboy if you will, but I'd so love to see a scene written wherein Bey and Louis have a father & son talk. Silly of me, I know, but I'd love to read Bey's explanation to Louis of why Carlos is his biological father and Bey his formative father.

[16:43] #knownspace> AlexA: Thanks EML

[16:43] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: We know that Truesdale goes as far as Alice... I don't know where Carlos came from

[16:43] #knownspace> rimworlder: ...Gil woke with a shudder. He was soaked with sweat, beads of it floated in the air around him. "Wow. What a hellaciously detailed nightmare that was..."

[16:43] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: They could easily bridge that gap

[16:44] #knownspace> EML: 12Betrayer gets into the family dynamics.

[16:44] #knownspace> Lensman: It would indeed be interesting to find out what the new colonists on Home found. Evidence of the Pak invasion fleet's attack? Or did the Home protectors "sanitize" the colony and remove traces of the battle? And what happened to all the Home protectors, anyway? Did they all commit suicide to allow Humankind to have free will? Seems highly unlikely.

[16:44] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Family dynamics and the Library

[16:45] #knownspace> AlexA: Knowing beys ability to find trouble I think he may well find something on Home - the Pak war is one candidate

[16:45] #knownspace> EML: 12Answers at 11 (11th month, that is :-) )

[16:45] #knownspace> rimworlder: now that I've wrapped everything up in a flat, stereotypical ending - EML: was writing this one as fun, more fun, less fun...? than the previous two?

[16:45] #knownspace> dmac44: Sounds like the Hindmost and Louis Wu heading for Home could be addressed in Triumph of Worlds, it sounds like that timeframe

[16:45] #knownspace> Dan: Lens, if the Home Protectors saw that suicide was the best solution, then they would. But how the hell could they trust each other to all go through with it?

[16:45] #knownspace> rimworlder: dan - they'd device some foolproof deadman's switch

[16:45] #knownspace> EML: 12Triumph of Worlds? Boy, that's getting really speculative.

[16:46] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: I thought that in protector the Home Protectors left home to travel into the core, so that they could destroy the invasion as it came at them

[16:46] #knownspace> Dan: Cubes, I thoought we were talking "ifs" here. LOL!

[16:46] #knownspace> UncleNasty: CubesForsythe: they left to intercept the fleet - the inference is that they were successful

[16:46] #knownspace> Lensman: Hmmm, I get the impression that all the "...of Worlds" stories are set in the Beowulf Shaeffer era, as they seem to form a continuing story line. But I could be wrong, of course...

[16:46] #knownspace> AlexA: Did the virus used at Home die off?

[16:47] #knownspace> Lensman: I agree with Dan, there will always be the motive to be "the last one left alive".

[16:47] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: EML, will we ever see Bey again? o.o

[16:47] #knownspace> rimworlder: EML: was writing this one as fun, more fun, less fun...? than the previous two?

[16:47] #knownspace> EML: 12betrayer of Worlds is closer to Ringworld than to the Shaeffer stories.

[16:47] #knownspace> UncleNasty: I always assumed that once there were no viable hosts on home, the virus died out - it was engineered to live in humans not potatos

[16:47] #knownspace> Dan: AlexA, it *is* slightly possible that the virus was engineered to die off at a ste time limit.

[16:47] #knownspace> Lensman: Cubes: The end of Protector mentions the Pak invaders attacking Home directly. What happened after that, we can't be sure.

[16:47] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: The virus removal is only addressed in the Peace Corbin stories as far as I can remember.

[16:47] #knownspace> AlexA: Yes Dan

[16:47] #knownspace> Dan: ste=set

[16:48] #knownspace> EML: 12Rim: it's hard to compare books like that. There's a new species or two to play with each time.

[16:48] #knownspace> Lensman: Alex: Obviously the virus used on Home died off or was killed off, or Home never would have been repopulated.

[16:48] #knownspace> Dan: Sorry, didn't mean to be pointing out the bloody obvious. Bad habit of mine, I know.

[16:48] #knownspace> AlexA: The children on home would be too young to become Protectors - what happened to them?

[16:49] #knownspace> dmac44: In Protector Truesdale's message at the end speculates that Tree-of-Life virus could survive in the atmosphere of Home

[16:49] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: they died, AlexA

[16:49] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Indeed dmac44. That is why I like the Peace Corbin explination.

[16:49] #knownspace> Lensman: Ed: Oh, the later "Worlds" books are set later, okay.

[16:50] #knownspace> AlexA: CubesForsythe: Canon or speculation?

[16:50] #knownspace> Lensman: Alex: Everyone on Home who didn't become a protector died. That's specified. Yes, even the children.

[16:50] #knownspace> EML: 12Gosh, y'all are into proectors today. You'll be happy to know there's a Pak protector main character in Destroyer.

[16:50] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Truesdale said it himself. Those who were not in the age limits died

[16:50] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Pak? not Human

[16:51] #knownspace> UncleNasty: EML: protectors are fun characters - it's nice to try and catch their reasoning out

[16:51] #knownspace> AlexA: Ah right CubesForsythe / Lensman - thanks

[16:51] #knownspace> Dan: Ed! Shamelessly prodding us into buying the books we're going to buy anyway? LOL!

[16:51] #knownspace> EML: 12Cubes: yes, Pak protector. name of Thssthfok

[16:51] #knownspace> UncleNasty: which means they're a bitch to write, no doubt

[16:51] #knownspace> EML: 12Yup, Pak are hard. But no harder than Gw'oth ensemble minds.

[16:51] #knownspace> rimworlder: I think the fun part is watching two guys write characters that are smarter/faster than they are, lol

[16:52] #knownspace> Lensman: It's hard to write characters who are smarter than you are. It's said to be impossible. Yet Larry does it! ...or maybe he really is just superhumanly intelligent. :)

[16:52] #knownspace> AlexA: I need to reread LN - Ive forgotten too much

[16:53] #knownspace> rimworlder: heh - if I wrote about a character that was smarter than me - he wouldn't be a writer, that's for sure!

[16:53] #knownspace> Lensman: I was disappointed at the portrayal of protectors in MKW XI. They acted like Motie warriors, not super-smart protectors. Kept making dumb tactical mistakes.

[16:53] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Were there more scouts then?

[16:53] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: (pak)

[16:53] #knownspace> rimworlder: sorry, I don't read MKW stories

[16:53] #knownspace> dmac44: Ed, would you characterize writing about the Gw'oth ensemble minds like writing code for multicore processors?

[16:54] #knownspace> rimworlder: dmacc lol

[16:54] #knownspace> AlexA: Peace Corbin (mow) speculated that Protectors brains ate multilobd and imume to the Slaver power

[16:54] #knownspace> AlexA: mkw not mow^

[16:54] #knownspace> Dan: That's a hard trap to keep from falling into for a newbie writer. I read Larry's caution about it and still did it myself. He's right though, the story does suffer when one aims to high above one's ability as a fledgling writer.

[16:54] #knownspace> Dan: to=too

[16:54] #knownspace> EML: 12dmac: we stick with a higher-level description.

[16:54] #knownspace> UncleNasty: i'd say gw'oth think like the list :P

[16:55] #knownspace> Dan: My inner editor just won't leave me alone today. :)

[16:55] #knownspace> rimworlder: dan - just make 'em sarcastic and it covers up a lot

[16:55] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Ed: Will the old Slaver empire be addressed at all in Destroyer or Betrayer in some fashion?

[16:55] #knownspace> Lensman: The protectors in MKW XI were on Wunderland, not pak. Some non-canonical MKW stories stipulate there was a separate hominid colony planted on Wunderland by the Pak; they're sub-human cave dwellers called "Morlocks". Keep in mind this is non-canonical... I personally don't believe for a minute the Pak would establish a potentially competing colony so nearby. That's specifically why they went so far from the Core to establishe the Earth

[16:56] #knownspace> EML: 12Now that more protectors are entering canon, some MKW stories may come to be seen as out of canon.

[16:56] #knownspace> rimworlder: bbiam

[16:56] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: And Earth failed.

[16:56] #knownspace> dmac44: fire them canons at the protectors :)

[16:56] #knownspace> Lensman: Anyway, MKW XI has Morlock protetors, who altho not as smart as Human protectors should have been smarter than stupid Motie warriors! Look at Hanuman, he was from a non-intelligent species yet was as smart as Louis, in some ways smarter.

[16:56] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: If they had resources they would try again.

[16:57] #knownspace> Dan: Once there is more than one Procetor to a world, war seems unavoidable.

[16:57] #knownspace> EML: 12Slavers? So far, not a factor in the Worlds books (beyond, perhaps, leaving behind a weapons cache in stasis).

[16:57] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Even on 1 Pak world, war is ineavitable.

[16:57] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Thanks

[16:57] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: They are wired that way.

[16:57] #knownspace> AlexA: Yeah Lensman. The Hollow Moon being left uninvestigated by ARM seemed very unlikely too.

[16:58] #knownspace> Lensman: The five-lobed brain thing is IMO just silly. Protectors do have enlarged heads, but not *that* enlarged!

[16:58] #knownspace> Lensman: Ed: I personally have no problem with MKW stories being rendered out-of-canon.

[16:59] #knownspace> EML: 12That innate aggression is, for me, the hardest part of writing protectors. There has to be some way to modulate the behavior or they'd never get very advanced. Extinction can be accomplished with fairly simple weapons.

[16:59] #knownspace> Lensman: Makes my job in creating the Concordance easier!

[16:59] #knownspace> Dan: Hard to see how a two lobed brain would mutate into a five lobed brain, though. Perhaps that writer just likes the Rule of Fives a little too much.

[17:00] #knownspace> AlexA: EML: So nothing about the variuos theories that have Tnuctipun around in RW era?

[17:00] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: (I think the puppeteers are the Tnuctipun)

[17:01] #knownspace> Lensman: Ed: Yes, that's one problem I had with /Protector/. Endless war by a technological species would eventually exterminate everyone, by accident if nothing else. I don't find the scenario believable.

[17:01] #knownspace> EML: 12AlexA: nope, no Tnuctipun, either.

[17:01] #knownspace> AlexA: Thanks EML

[17:02] #knownspace> EML: 12Lens: you'll have decide if the behavior is moderated/explained in Destroyer.

[17:02] #knownspace> AlexA: Lensman: Moties manage it (just about)

[17:02] #knownspace> Lensman: But, Ed... look into this spinning disc... /Destroyer/ WILL repeat WILL address the question of whether or not tree-of-life is a result of genetic engineering, right? Right.

[17:03] #knownspace> Dan: Lens, Jedi mind tricks don't often work on writers. LOL!

[17:03] #knownspace> EML: 12We got your stepping discs. No spinnign discs.

[17:03] #knownspace> AlexA: If TOL is artificial then so are Pak ?

[17:04] #knownspace> Dan: That would beg the question of who made the Pak, then.

[17:04] #knownspace> AlexA: As speculated by Peace Corbin - Pak as Tnuctipun creations

[17:04] #knownspace> Dan: Hmmm.... Not gonna go there!

[17:04] #knownspace> EML: 12Did Larry drop by today?

[17:04] #knownspace> Dan: Not yet, Ed.

[17:04] #knownspace> Lensman: I see it as a matter of degree, not kind. Perhaps /Protector/ stressed the endless warfare overmuch. It also talked about cooperation between closely-related protectors. There seems to be a discrepancy between the Ringworld books and /Protector/. The Ringworld books make it seem like protectors rarely cooperate, yet in /Protector/ it seems as though most or all protectors operate in family groups.

[17:05] #knownspace> Dan: But if events run their course as usual, he'll show up within 7 minutes of your exit. :)

[17:05] #knownspace> Lensman: Pak could be naturally evolved even if TOL is not.

[17:05] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Lensman: probably somewhere in between what we've seen

[17:05] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: @AlexA read Peace and Freedom.

[17:05] #knownspace> rimworlder: ooo - I'm not alone with the puppeteers are tnuctipun theory!

[17:05] #knownspace> EML: 12If a species boils down to one trait, it becomes a caricature.

[17:06] #knownspace> AlexA: Merlin_McCarley: Whick mkw is that in?

[17:06] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: nope, Rimworlder

[17:06] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Newest one.

[17:06] #knownspace> Lensman: OTOH I don't think in the Rw books we ever see *related* protectors, so perhaps it's a case of "if you smell like me, I'll cooperate with you".

[17:06] #knownspace> AlexA: Ah on my list to buy

[17:07] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: #12

[17:07] #knownspace> rimworlder: cubes - read my piece on Lensman's site?

[17:07] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: What's it called?

[17:07] #knownspace> rimworlder: the tnuctipun aren't dun

[17:07] #knownspace> AlexA: Merlin_McCarley: Ive only got up to so

[17:07] #knownspace> AlexA: Xi

[17:08] #knownspace> EML: 12In another few minutes, I'm heading off. Any last questions for me to dodge?

[17:08] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Ah, yes, I've read it. I think that I remember not agreeing with all of your points, but for the most part.. yes

[17:08] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: 12 was published early this year.

[17:08] #knownspace> Lensman: It's in the "Articles" section on the Incompleat Known Space Concordance.

[17:08] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: EML: Is Bey a character that you and Larry will use again?

[17:08] #knownspace> Dan: OK Ed, who is the cover artist for the newest 'OW books, and do you like their work?

[17:08] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Will the question of why Protectors can't use the Mass Detector be addressed?

[17:09] #knownspace> rimworlder: cubes - what do you base your conclusion(s) on?

[17:09] #knownspace> Lensman: Thanks for sharing, Ed! As always, your hints are both fascinating and exasperating. But when it comes to spoilers, less is definitely more!

[17:09] #knownspace> EML: 12Cubes: Larry prefers to keep Bey for his personal use. But we are sharing Louis (as of Betrayer).

[17:09] #knownspace> rimworlder: eml - you going to be around on your blog the next few days?

[17:09] #knownspace> AlexA: EML: Any thoughts about a new Hard at series with LN. Avoiding all the baggage of is

[17:09] #knownspace> AlexA: Ks

[17:09] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry has stated that protectors are psionically dead.

[17:10] #knownspace> Lensman: Ohhhhhhh! Another huge hint dropped!

[17:10] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Wow.. Louis eh?

[17:10] #knownspace> EML: 12Rim: I blogged today. But if there's something on your mind, shoot me an email.

[17:10] #knownspace> AlexA: Hard SF not hard at ( damn autocorrect)

[17:10] #knownspace> rimworlder: oh - I will - nothing special and don't want to detract from the hard work you're doing on stuff everyone likes to read

[17:10] #knownspace> EML: 12"a new Hard?" You lost me, AlexA.

[17:11] #knownspace> rimworlder: the new hard from viagra...

[17:11] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: -_-

[17:11] #knownspace> dmac44: Len: That's interesting because a good portion of the galaxy's spacefaring races are psionically active.

[17:11] #knownspace> AlexA: EML: A new hard SF series outside KS

[17:12] #knownspace> EML: 12Ah, hard SF. I've got a near-future hard SF novel coming out in October. It's called Small Miracles, and it involves medical nanotech. Larry was kind enough to blurb it.

[17:12] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: When did Larry state this? I ask the question in here a few months ago and got no response.

[17:12] #knownspace> AlexA: I meant with LN EML

[17:12] #knownspace> EML: 12And Fools' Experiments (last year's solo), also hard SF, comes out in MM PB in September.

[17:12] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: I will be sure to look it up, Ed ^^

[17:13] #knownspace> EML: 12Merlin: what's your question? I missed it.

[17:13] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Will the question of why Protectors can't use the Mass Detector be addressed?

[17:13] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: So the Library.. family ties and Louis in Betrayer... wow

[17:13] #knownspace> Lensman: dmac: The fact that protectors are psionically dead is one thing that seems to point to TOL being a product of Tnuctipun engineering. If they're psionically dead, and extremely aggressive, and super-smart, then they're perfect weapons against the Thrintun. Problem with that hypothesis is: How could the Pak have been around for 1.5 billion years? Not possible. Possible answer: They were developed as a weapon but not used in the war,

[17:14] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: To which Lensman said..... Larry has stated that protectors are psionically dead.

[17:14] #knownspace> EML: 12AlexA: in the near future, anyway, any collaborations with Larry will be in KS.

[17:14] #knownspace> rimworlder: last q for EML from me: are you going to be at readercon?

[17:14] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Well as breeders it is possible they were dumb enough to live through suicide night.

[17:15] #knownspace> EML: 12Ah. Pak psi (or lack thereof) -- doesn't come up, at least in Destroyer.

[17:15] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: And as stated in Protector on the Pak homeworld Tree of Life is readily available.

[17:15] #knownspace> AlexA: Ok EML . I'll have to check out your solo stuff

[17:15] #knownspace> EML: 12Rim: Readercon? Nope, sorry.

[17:15] #knownspace> rimworlder: oh well

[17:15] #knownspace> rimworlder: anyone else here planning on readercon? I just made the committment to go

[17:16] #knownspace> EML: 12Bye, all. See you next month.

[17:16] #knownspace> rimworlder: later eml

[17:16] #knownspace> AlexA: EML: Are you on twitter?

[17:16] #knownspace> dmac44: See ya Ed

[17:16] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: thanks for sharing EML!

[17:16] #knownspace> Lensman: They could have lived thru suicide night, but long before 1.5 billion years either the protectors would have wiped themselves out, or they would have evolved beyond recognition.

[17:16] #knownspace> Dan: Later, Ed!

[17:16] #knownspace> AlexA: Bye

[17:16] #knownspace> Lensman: Bye, Ed!

[17:16] #knownspace> UncleNasty: Later Ed

[17:17] #knownspace> Jim: bye Ed

[17:17] #knownspace> rimworlder: presuming that the tnuctipun can do anything with genes, its possible for pak to live that long

[17:17] #knownspace> EML: 12AlexA: nope, I don't twitter. I do blog, though (http://edward-m-lerner.blogspot.com/). And my email address is on my website. www/sfwa/org/members/lerner/

[17:17] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Keep in mind they are traveling from the core at below light speed. They have been traveling a long time.

[17:17] #knownspace> rimworlder: alexa - and Ed is very good about responding as well

[17:17] #knownspace> rimworlder: hey - that universesandbox thingie is pretty damned cool

[17:18] #knownspace> AlexA: Will take a look

[17:19] #knownspace> UncleNasty: just loading it up in an XP virtual machine to take a looksee

[17:19] #knownspace> rimworlder: Cubes - your basic premises on tnuctipun=puppeteerS?

[17:19] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Rimworlder: i draw my conclusions from he idea that the the puppeteers are obsessed with genetics experiments

[17:20] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: And Niven's own short story outline thing called "Down in Flames"

[17:20] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: I don't see that either. I thought the Tnuctipun were carnovores.

[17:20] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Ah, who has really seen one?

[17:20] #knownspace> UncleNasty: Merlin_McCarley: could be misdirection planted by puppeteers

[17:20] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: What better misdirection? Who would confuse a puppeteer for a carnivore? :)

[17:20] #knownspace> AlexA: ^I've just joinned Twitter. Not sure how useful it is yet :)

[17:21] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Hey, wait a minute

[17:22] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: EML said that Niven reserves Bey for himself (thereby implying that Destroyer and/or Betrayer wouldn't use him)

[17:22] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: but he DID use Bey in Juggler

[17:22] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: flew right over my head when he said it

[17:23] #knownspace> dmac44: CF: good catch

[17:23] #knownspace> AlexA: I guess the ruling is about future use of Bey

[17:23] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: or he gave us misdirection

[17:23] #knownspace> Dan: So obviously, any section of an 'OW book that features Bey was written by Larry. LOL!

[17:23] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: must be Dan!

[17:24] #knownspace> AlexA: I hope LN has more stories in mind for Bey

[17:24] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Though the fact that he said Louis is in Betrayer makes me geek out

[17:25] #knownspace> dmac44: I threw out a comment earlier about most of the galaxy's (not jsut KS) spacefaring races being psioniclly active and didn't get jumped on so I'll expand on why I said that. If the Outsiders have sold the hyperdrive 201chundreds of times over201d (per A Gift from Earth) to species in the galaxy, then either a mass pointer (a psionics device) or a method to take pictures of hyperspace (such as Tunesmith invented) would be necessary to navigate in hypers

[17:26] #knownspace> Dan: Louis and Bey are my favorites of all of Larry's characters. But Gil Hamilton runs a close third.

[17:26] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Agreed, Dan

[17:26] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: I have room in my heart for Sigmund too though :P

[17:27] #knownspace> Dan: dmac44, there must also be species that can percieve hyperspace without suffering from the Blind Spot syndrome.

[17:27] rimworlder has joined #knownspace

[17:27] #knownspace> Dan: If only just to cover all the possibilities.

[17:27] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: lurking for a bit

[17:27] #knownspace> rimworlder: dang! Mozilla crashed on me

[17:27] #knownspace> rimworlder: thanks!

[17:28] #knownspace> dmac44: Dan: I don't think its a matter of not suffering from the blindspot its more can you see what's out there

[17:28] #knownspace> AlexA: Dan: Some kzin can do it (Fly by night)

[17:28] #knownspace> rimworlder: I think a regular KS pasttime will be doing mushrooms and then looking at the blindspot...

[17:28] FlyingDragon has joined #knownspace

[17:28] #knownspace> Dan: dmac44, I expressed myself badly. You stated exactly what I was trying to say.

[17:28] #knownspace> dmac44: Dan: do they see the singularities directly?

[17:28] #knownspace> UncleNasty: Hi Carol

[17:28] #knownspace> Dan: Hiya Carol! You just missed Ed.

[17:29] #knownspace> FlyingDragon: Wow! So many people! I just ducked in to say hello.

[17:29] #knownspace> Lensman: Bey in JOW was just re-hashing events of "Neutron Star", no new story line with Bey. All new info was from Nessus' perspective.

[17:29] #knownspace> rimworlder: Hello!\

[17:29] #knownspace> UncleNasty: oh carol, I'm so, so sorry for you...

[17:29] #knownspace> rimworlder: have fun - speaking of which - thoughts on Terminator and Star Trek from you folks?

[17:29] #knownspace> Dan: dmac44, I have no idea. I love to speculate, but I sometimes speak before I think things through.

[17:30] #knownspace> AlexA: Members of the Patriarchs family can navigate withou a mass sensor

[17:30] #knownspace> FlyingDragon: Uncle, it's bad? Peter is hoping it will be funny. Kids used to like the series.

[17:30] #knownspace> dmac44: AlexA: is that canon?

[17:31] #knownspace> AlexA: It's in "Fly by night" by Larry so yes

[17:31] #knownspace> AlexA: Unless the kzin

[17:31] #knownspace> Lensman: We know the Pak can evolve to different forms; look at the Ringworld! So there's no rational way to suggest the Pak could have survived since Suicide Night.

[17:31] #knownspace> AlexA: Who says it is lying

[17:31] #knownspace> Dan: Carol, it has Will Farrel in it- in my not-so-humble-opinion, that can't be a good thing for any movie. :)

[17:31] #knownspace> rimworlder: lens - breeders evolved into different forms on the ringworld...

[17:31] #knownspace> Lensman: Or rather, the only rational way is inside a stasis field.

[17:32] #knownspace> rimworlder: or programmed to appear AFTER suicide night

[17:32] #knownspace> AlexA: dmac44: Lensman can problably give the exact quote :)

[17:32] #knownspace> FlyingDragon: At least they got rid of the whiney brat!

[17:32] #knownspace> rimworlder: you mean Holly?

[17:32] #knownspace> Lensman: rim: That's my point, that they do evolve. So the hypothesis that "they could have survived if the Tnuctipun had designed them to" doesn't hold up.

[17:32] #knownspace> dmac44: AlexA: I'll take a look at FbN

[17:33] #knownspace> rimworlder: lens - what if they weren't sentient earlier in evolution?

[17:33] #knownspace> FlyingDragon: gotta drag the kids away to the movie theatre! Bye!!!

[17:33] #knownspace> AlexA: FlyingDragon: Theres a pretty positive review of Land.. on Io9

[17:33] #knownspace> rimworlder: on the other hand - why go to so m uch trouble with stasis tech around - you're probably right

[17:34] #knownspace> AlexA: Bye FlyingDragon

[17:34] #knownspace> Dan: Rimwrlder, you mean that they were all (GASP!) Politicians? ;)

[17:34] #knownspace> rimworlder: oh - positive review on IO9 - that's a recommendation...

[17:34] #knownspace> FlyingAway: Bye all!!!

[17:34] #knownspace> dmac44: AlexA: BTW, do we know which sense the Kzin use to perceive hyperspace?

[17:34] #knownspace> rimworlder: dan - no, politicians need assistance to breed

[17:35] #knownspace> Dan: I agree, they need paid professionals, but not necessarily voulenteers.

[17:35] #knownspace> AlexA: Don't think it's detailled dmac44

[17:35] #knownspace> AlexA: I'll up and get FBN and check

[17:35] #knownspace> dmac44: AlexA: I think that's a critical point.

[17:36] #knownspace> AlexA: Brb

[17:36] #knownspace> rimworlder: I'm missing the acronym - FBN?

[17:36] #knownspace> dmac44: fbn - fly by night

[17:36] #knownspace> Dan: FBN= Fly By Night.

[17:36] #knownspace> rimworlder: right

[17:36] #knownspace> rimworlder: thanks

[17:36] #knownspace> rimworlder: while we wait - thoughts on Terminator and/or Star Trek?

[17:37] #knownspace> Lensman: Re navigation in hyperspace: We don't know how many species need the mass pointer. Kzinti don't. There's conflicting evidence about the Puppeteers. Maybe they do, maybe they don't.

[17:37] #knownspace> UncleNasty: terminator was watchable

[17:37] #knownspace> UncleNasty: trek was better than I thought it would be

[17:37] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Fly By Night also has Bey in and refrences the Angel's Pencil sequel by Hal Colebatch.

[17:37] #knownspace> dmac44: I don't think the sense is specified in FBN but it still may be a psionic ability

[17:37] #knownspace> Dan: Both = A Sequel too far, LOL!

[17:37] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: So it makes at least 1 MKW story cannon beyond Larry's storiex.

[17:37] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: stories*

[17:38] #knownspace> rimworlder: dan - agreed - trek was just not believable and terminator was confused and story-light

[17:38] #knownspace> Lensman: "Star Trek" was enjoyable, as long as you don't spend much time thinking about the story... in which case it falls apart, as most time travel stories do.

[17:38] #knownspace> dmac44: Trek - bad, the transporter can now send you light years. Way too easy to attach planets

[17:38] #knownspace> rimworlder: lens - what killed it for me was the future spock sitting in a cave 14 kilometers from a Fed base and doing NOTHING for who knows how long

[17:38] #knownspace> Dan: Not much comes out of Hollywood these days with real attention to the details of a story.

[17:39] #knownspace> rimworlder: dan - agreed; I want zombie hitchcock back, lol

[17:39] #knownspace> Hippy: LOL!

[17:39] #knownspace> AlexA: Back

[17:39] #knownspace> rimworlder: or zombie ford

[17:39] #knownspace> Lensman: Merlin: Yes, "Fly-By-Night" makes the events of Hal Colebatch's "Telepath's Dance" canonical.

[17:39] #knownspace> Hippy: An all-zombie musical would be good - starring the corpse of Esther Williams

[17:39] #knownspace> rimworlder: or even zombie zeigfield

[17:40] #knownspace> Dan: I pray that if Larry does get a movie made from his stories that he is able to get final approval of the scripts.

[17:40] #knownspace> rimworlder: hippy - omg - and zombie kate smith, lol

[17:40] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Hippy, give me some of what you are drinking ;)

[17:40] #knownspace> AlexA: Can't check FBN - my copies of mkw ix and x aren't in right place

[17:40] #knownspace> rimworlder: dan - never happen - never, ever, ever will they allow such a thing

[17:41] #knownspace> Dan: I know, but I can dream!

[17:41] #knownspace> AlexA: Dan: Hollywierd doesn't roll that way

[17:41] #knownspace> rimworlder: true dat, dan. you know, films these days HAVE to have something happening every 30 seconds, so there is no time for story

[17:42] #knownspace> Hippy: Has anyone seen that 'Pride and Prejudice with Zombie' thing?

[17:42] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Ah someone else that calls it Hollyweird!

[17:42] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: w00t!

[17:42] #knownspace> rimworlder: hippy - zombie jane austen? no, haven't read it yet but I hear from trusted sources that it is a hoot

[17:42] #knownspace> Dan: Agreed, so perhaps it's a good thing that Larry's work hasn't been raped by Hollyweird, yet.

[17:43] #knownspace> AlexA: Best we can hope for is a fan director/writer - like LOTR & PJ

[17:43] #knownspace> rimworlder: dan - if he holds out long enough, a fan project with sufficient technical skill will come along

[17:43] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Some has. ST-TAS raped the Soft Weapon.

[17:43] #knownspace> Lensman: Rim: sorry, I was away getting something to eat. One rule of evolution is "Succesful species differentiate, unsuccessful ones go extinct." In 1.5 billion years, either the Pak would differentiate into many species, or else they'd go extinct. You're suggesting that in that time, none of the child species would have become intelligent? Altho at least two did on earth-- H. sapiens and Neanderthal? I don't think that's believable. An

[17:43] #knownspace> Dan: Agreed, again!

[17:43] #knownspace> Hippy: 'Very workmanlike' was a phrase I heard about it. Still having trouble with printed words, so I haven't indulged as yet

[17:44] #knownspace> rimworlder: merlin - they raped Godwin's Cold Equations too

[17:44] #knownspace> rimworlder: lens - hey - I already said "YOU PROBABLY ARE RIGHT!!!", lol

[17:44] #knownspace> Dan: Merlin, I disagree, for Trek, that was a good adaptation - For Trek, that is. I've seen other writer's work that wasn't reimagined as respectifully in the live action series'.

[17:44] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: I could not believe when I was reading through the "Land of the Lost" episodes to see that Larry actually wrote some episodes.

[17:45] #knownspace> rimworlder: merlin - ted sturgeon & etc. as well

[17:45] #knownspace> rimworlder: that's what made it good - cheap effects, not great acting - but good stories

[17:45] #knownspace> AlexA: I haven't seen ST Slaver Weapon yet

[17:45] #knownspace> rimworlder: alexa - animated series

[17:46] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Just something that is not refrenced very well outside of the LotL episode guides.

[17:46] #knownspace> AlexA: I know rimworlder

[17:46] #knownspace> rimworlder: its the episode that drew the Kzinti in as a ST universe Race - mostly in the gaming end of things

[17:46] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: In PURPLE no less :s

[17:46] #knownspace> AlexA: Seen stills but not actual episode

[17:46] #knownspace> rimworlder: ahh

[17:47] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Clothing that is not fur.

[17:47] #knownspace> AlexA: Not sure animated series had been shown in uk

[17:47] #knownspace> Dan: That is by far my favorite ST:TAS script.

[17:47] #knownspace> Lensman: In FBN the title character is blinded by the Blind Spot, just like a human. Yes, for those Kzinti who can see hyperspace, it is a psionic ability.

[17:47] #knownspace> Dan: I remember it from the first run on TV, back in the day.

[17:47] #knownspace> AlexA: Must rent the DVDs

[17:47] #knownspace> Hippy: Who saw the 'Inconstnat Moon' ep of the new 'Outer Limits ? That wasn't too bad

[17:47] #knownspace> rimworlder: dan - me too - surprised me

[17:48] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: I did Hippy, it was good.

[17:48] #knownspace> rimworlder: Hippy - I did - and everyone else can on Hulu

[17:48] #knownspace> Hippy: Yes. So Larry has been much better done by than, say, David Brin :)

[17:48] #knownspace> rimworlder: hippy - postman?

[17:48] #knownspace> AlexA: Probably not us in uk rimworlder - hulu blocks us

[17:49] #knownspace> Hippy: The very same, rim

[17:49] #knownspace> dmac44: Len: Thanks, so I would still guess that the implication is that psionic abilities are rather common in the galaxy.

[17:49] #knownspace> rimworlder: alexa - yeah - there are some programs that can let you get around that

[17:49] #knownspace> rimworlder: hippy - I think practice effect would make a hilarious sf comedy

[17:49] #knownspace> Hippy: I agree

[17:50] #knownspace> Dan: My wife and I recently watched the Inconstant Moon episode, she was crying near the end and I was nearly crying. But yet I was still pointing out how they changed some of the story's details.

[17:50] #knownspace> AlexA: I've tried using proxies to access us only stuff before without success rimworlder

[17:50] #knownspace> Hippy: I would drop all the puns if I were writing it - and the pixolet might be a worry

[17:50] #knownspace> Lensman: Sorry fen, I'm having trouble keeping up with all the conversations. Just what is it y'all want to know from FBN?

[17:50] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Might need to have NAT enabled on your router.

[17:50] #knownspace> Hippy: But the storyline is so good that it would go really well

[17:50] #knownspace> AlexA: But my tech skills aren't that hot

[17:50] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Or DMZ even.

[17:50] #knownspace> rimworlder: alexa - I have a good program linked to somewhere on my blog but can't find it. if you go to www.rimworlds.com/thecrotchetyoldfan - you might be able to

[17:51] #knownspace> Dan: Sorry, just saw my Father-in-Law on the TV, in a D-Day parade over in England. He's a veteran, tank corps, British Army.

[17:51] #knownspace> Lensman: I saw "Inconstant Moon" some time back. It's okay... which is actually much better than most adaptations!

[17:51] #knownspace> AlexA: Lensman: Bit about kzin navigating without mass sensor

[17:51] #knownspace> rimworlder: dan - well - thank him sometime for me

[17:52] #knownspace> Dan: My wife is in tears, knowing that we can't afford to fly over to visit him any time soon, and he's 85 years old, too.

[17:52] #knownspace> Lensman: I personally don't care much for ST: "The Slaver Weapon" beause it tries to shoe-horn the KS backstory of the Slavers vs. Tnuctipun into the Trek universe, along with stasis fields, and that just doesn't fit at all.

[17:52] #knownspace> AlexA: rimworlder: Ill give it a try thanks

[17:52] #knownspace> rimworlder: hippy - you can leave most of the puns in, I think, as hearing them will just go over most folks' heads

[17:52] #knownspace> rimworlder: alexa - if you stick a comment in the about page with an email, I'll find it and send it to you

[17:52] #knownspace> dmac44: Lens: I agree. St is ST, KS is KS and the two shouldn't meet.

[17:52] #knownspace> Lensman: Certainly we must believe that most intelligent species are psionically active, or the Thrintun wouldn't believe it's impossible to have a sapient species immune to the Power.

[17:52] #knownspace> NickE: night all

[17:53] #knownspace> rimworlder: night

[17:53] #knownspace> Dan: Goodnight, Nick!

[17:53] #knownspace> Hippy: Night, Nick

[17:53] #knownspace> dmac44: Lens: Another good point

[17:53] #knownspace> allyngibson: personally, I have no trouble with the Slavers in the Trek universe; I think the Borg were created as a weapon to fight them

[17:53] #knownspace> Dan: Missed him by *tht* much!

[17:53] #knownspace> rimworlder: lens - its kind of like GURPS for science fiction

[17:53] #knownspace> Hippy: I was gong to say 'Good morning, sunshine' but we haven't got any

[17:53] #knownspace> Hippy: It's as grey as a Norstrilian sky

[17:54] #knownspace> Lensman: Alex: Do you want an actual quote or what?

[17:54] #knownspace> rimworlder: if I were on Norstrilia, that would be a fine day

[17:54] #knownspace> rimworlder: I jsut got asked by Smith's daughter to take pics at Readercon of the Rediscovery award ceremony

[17:55] #knownspace> Hippy: Yes, the sheep, the giant sparrows, the mouse-brained computers. . .

[17:55] #knownspace> AlexA: Lensman: The bit about kzin navigating without mass sensor please

[17:55] #knownspace> rimworlder: hippy - lol - I want Rod McBan's Grandfather's computer...

[17:55] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, congratulatons, rim

[17:55] #knownspace> rimworlder: but I'll settle for C'Mell

[17:56] #knownspace> Hippy: Hmmm. . .now there's a casting call I would like to be at

[17:56] #knownspace> rimworlder: well, if it were years ago - I'd go with a redheaded Michelle Pfieffer

[17:56] #knownspace> Dan: I agree, Hippy. That would be a memorable parade of beauty.

[17:56] #knownspace> Hippy: The only true C'Mell is Eatha Kitt, Julie Newmar or Lee Metiwether

[17:57] #knownspace> rimworlder: C'Mell - the girly-girl from Cordwainer Smith's stories

[17:57] #knownspace> AlexA: Ah not read any

[17:57] #knownspace> rimworlder: alexa - then get ye hence and by the definitive collection from NESFA

[17:58] #knownspace> rimworlder: buy

[17:58] #knownspace> AlexA: Yessir

[17:58] #knownspace> Hippy: Hmm. Methiks I shall prowl the NESFA site. . .

[17:58] #knownspace> Lensman: "Human beings can't look into the Blind Spot. Most would go mad. Some can use a mass pointer to steer through hyperspace and keep their sanity too. Some Kzinti can perceive hyperspace directly; their female kin have mated into the family of the Patriarch for half a thousand years" (Ringworld's Children ch. 6, p. 76).

[17:58] #knownspace> rimworlder: C'Mell is a cat-derived underperson who is the most beautiful, alluring woman in all of known space

[17:58] #knownspace> Dan: That's one writer of whom I wish there were more stories. 4 Books just aren't enough!

[17:59] #knownspace> rimworlder: her job is to make offworld males swoon - but never touch, lol

[17:59] #knownspace> Lensman: I found the reference in my "Hyperspace Theory and Practice" article, not in "Fly-By-Night".

[17:59] #knownspace> rimworlder: dan - yes, it is a terrible shame

[17:59] #knownspace> rimworlder: on the other hand, you CAN read them over and over and over

[18:00] #knownspace> Hippy: Yes, you can

[18:00] #knownspace> Dan: I once played writing games that used tricks from Cordwainer Smith's style. Fun, but bloody hard to carry off sucessfully.

[18:00] #knownspace> AlexA: Thanks Lensman. Dmac44 wanted to know but he's left :(

[18:00] #knownspace> Hippy: Even John Sladek had trouble

[18:01] #knownspace> rimworlder: I'd not presume to try - although I DO like the convention (Asian, supposedly) of tellinig the ending first - but of having the details be so compelling that it doesn't matter that you already know how things come out

[18:01] #knownspace> Dan: Oh, listen to me! You'd think *I* was the Brit, instead of my wife. I swear, that woman's speech patterns are rubbing off on me. LOL!

[18:01] #knownspace> rimworlder: dan - bloody was americanized decades ago - as soon as everyone here knew it was a curse word, lol

[18:02] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah. . .'the great Australian adjective'

[18:02] #knownspace> Lensman: I like Victorian stories and do occasionally use "bloody" as an expletive myself.

[18:02] #knownspace> Dan: I've begun to use it a lot more since I married Lindsey.

[18:02] #knownspace> rimworlder: I find it a convenient expression

[18:02] #knownspace> AlexA: Brb

[18:02] #knownspace> Lensman: "Bloody hell!" is quite evocative!

[18:02] #knownspace> Dan: Works quite well with my steampunk costumes as well. :)

[18:03] #knownspace> Hippy: I don't know how she would cope with your normal accent, anyway, Dan

[18:03] #knownspace> Lensman: Quite cricket, eh?

[18:03] #knownspace> rimworlder: every time I see that written, what I hear is the actress who played Cleese's wife in A Fish Called Wanda saying it

[18:03] #knownspace> Lensman: You talk like everybody else when you get excited!

[18:03] #knownspace> Lensman: L

[18:03] #knownspace> Lensman: :)

[18:04] #knownspace> Dan: Hippy, she can't speak with my normal accent, but she doesn't have much trouble understanding other southerners even when their accent is even thicker than my own.

[18:04] #knownspace> rimworlder: brb (rips duct tape from wall)

[18:04] #knownspace> Hippy: She's probably used to it by now

[18:05] #knownspace> Dan: Of course, my "rest state" accent sounds more like Johnny Carson than "Johnny Rebel".

[18:05] #knownspace> Lensman: That actress was Jamie Lee Curtis

[18:05] AlexA has joined #knownspace

[18:05] #knownspace> AlexA: Back

[18:05] #knownspace> Dan: Welcome Back, Alex.

[18:07] #knownspace> Dan: I'm afraid that I have the Knoxville, Tennessee Atomic Belt accent even though I've been livng in Georgia for many decades. I only layer in the Southern accent when I'm either speaking with other Southerners, or making a joke.

[18:09] #knownspace> Lensman: I grew up in small towns sporting southern accents such as Nokona (sp?), Texas and Osceola, Missouri. So altho I've lived in Kansas City for decades, my friends still notice a trace of a southern accent. Not that this is bad... it can be a hit with the ladies, if delivered properly.

[18:09] #knownspace> Dan: My wife swears that I have friends who prompt me into using an accent so thick that she denies that there are actual words involved. Just one long series of vowel movements.

[18:10] #knownspace> Dan: :)

[18:10] #knownspace> AlexA: If you're casting redheads how about Felecia Day?

[18:10] #knownspace> Lensman: I dinnae ken whae ye be on aboot.

[18:10] dmac44 has joined #knownspace

[18:10] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: I'm too conscious of the way that I pronounce things to allow myself to lapse into a southern accent

[18:10] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, Dan, I can sympathise there. Over VOIP people think there are no words in my speech, either

[18:11] #knownspace> Hippy: . . .which is often true, after a few libations

[18:11] #knownspace> Lensman: For dmac: "Human beings can't look into the Blind Spot. Most would go mad. Some can use a mass pointer to steer through hyperspace and keep their sanity too. Some Kzinti can perceive hyperspace directly; their female kin have mated into the family of the Patriarch for half a thousand years" (Ringworld's Children ch. 6, p. 76).

[18:11] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: I lived in CA for 20 years, now that I've been in the south for a while, sometimes I catch myself almost pronouncing things with an accent

[18:11] #knownspace> AlexA: My wife grew up in Barbados & her accent gets stronger when there or on the phone to relatives

[18:12] #knownspace> Dan: Cubes, it isn't a lapse so much as it is a slide.

[18:12] #knownspace> dmac44: Sorry about dropping off, there was a power surge. Anyway I just came back on to say see y'all next month.

[18:12] #knownspace> AlexA: Bye dmac44

[18:12] #knownspace> Lensman: Hi, dmac. 'Bye, dmac!

[18:12] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Bye Dmac

[18:12] #knownspace> Hippy: See you if I can see, dmac

[18:13] #knownspace> Lensman: Hippy: Speaking of which, how are you coping?

[18:13] #knownspace> Dan: Alex, Lyn is on the phone right now to her childhood girlfriend in Portsmouth, England. She'll sound all POSH for the next couple of hours.

[18:13] #knownspace> Lensman: Veddy veddy Brrritish, what?

[18:13] #knownspace> Hippy: Lens: not too bad. A bit of a strain even in 26pt font, but I can kind of keep up

[18:14] #knownspace> Hippy: The cornea is still thickened, about 160% of normal thickness, so things are slightly cloudy

[18:14] #knownspace> Lensman: Hippy: So you're able to use sight and not a speech synthesizer, eh? That's good.

[18:14] #knownspace> Dan: Lens, imagine Ringo or George Harrison with a female voice.

[18:14] #knownspace> Hippy: Like looking through a fish tank

[18:14] #knownspace> AlexA: Lensman: Im sure there's a silimilar passage in FBN - the lead kzin claims to be related to the patriarch and gives his navigation ability ad proof

[18:14] #knownspace> Lensman: Hippy: Ugh. So what's your prognosis?

[18:14] #knownspace> Hippy: The doctors areconfient that it will get better. I want a few hours in Carlos Wu's coffin

[18:14] #knownspace> Lensman: LOL! Indeed.

[18:16] UncleNasty has joined #knownspace

[18:16] #knownspace> Lensman: Alex: He mentions his ability to "use the Outsider hyperdrive", and uses that as a claim that he has the blood of the Patriarch's family, but I'm not sure there's any real discussion of their ability to perceive hyperspace.

[18:16] #knownspace> Dan: WB, Uncle.

[18:16] #knownspace> UncleNasty: oy vey cheap crappy bell internet

[18:16] #knownspace> UncleNasty: thanks, dan

[18:16] #knownspace> Hippy: I like the AutoOp function

[18:17] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: So, think that Larry will visit?

[18:17] #knownspace> Lensman: No, pretty sure Larry won't drop in this late.

[18:17] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, Ed has gone, so he can come back as Larry, so it's a good possibility

[18:17] #knownspace> Dan: Larry doesn't usually come in so late in the day, Cubes. But anything can happen!

[18:17] #knownspace> AlexA: Hmm the memory cheats then - I thought he had a long speech about his navigation skills

[18:18] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry most often drops in around 1 PM pacific time, sometimes up to an hour later, but it's now 3:18 and unlikely he'll show.

[18:18] #knownspace> UncleNasty: .t PST

[18:18] #knownspace> Brennan: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 14:18:41 PST

[18:18] #knownspace> UncleNasty: .t PDT

[18:18] #knownspace> Brennan: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 15:18:49 PDT

[18:19] #knownspace> Lensman: Alex: Well, I could be mistaken. Are you on the Niven discussion list?

[18:19] #knownspace> AlexA: Lensman: Its me Alex Aplin :)

[18:19] #knownspace> AlexA: So yes

[18:20] #knownspace> Lensman: Okay, well if I find something I'll post it to the list.

[18:20] #knownspace> AlexA: Thanks

[18:21] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: So EML said that Betrayer would be more around the ringworld era. That's very vague. I wonder, if it's before RW, at what point it will happen at. Louis is involved, but in RW he mentions the events of their is a tide... why not mention something just as important, if not bigger?

[18:21] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Could it possibly include Louis after he escapes from the RW?

[18:22] #knownspace> AlexA: May have to re-buy them

[18:22] #knownspace> Lensman: Louis could be in it well before the Ringworld era. He's 180 in "There Is a Tide", so it could be centuries earlier.

[18:23] #knownspace> Hippy: 'Young Louis in Love'

[18:23] #knownspace> rimworlder: back - whipping up a batch of chicken salad

[18:23] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: but he wouldn't have mentioned it to anyone?

[18:23] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: a hundred years before there is a tide, wasn't louis busy losing an election in the UN?

[18:24] #knownspace> Lensman: Okay, Alex, I think I found what you're talking about.

[18:24] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: I'm just saying, it doesn't seem like a workable place to stick a new amazing event

[18:24] #knownspace> Lensman: Just a minute while I find it in my e-text copy.

[18:24] #knownspace> Hippy: I think you're right, Cubes

[18:24] #knownspace> Hippy: And he was caught on the ground during a revolution on Wunderland, so it might be that

[18:25] #knownspace> Lensman: Sure, there are alreadly lots of things in Louis' backstory that could be expanded upon.

[18:25] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: oh

[18:25] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: you know what

[18:25] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: in Juggler Sigmund talks about the resistance against the aristos on Wunderland

[18:25] #knownspace> Hippy: What?

[18:25] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: do we know what year the revolution was?

[18:26] #knownspace> Hippy: Sometime in Louis's life, but I don't remember any other time reference

[18:26] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: That would be interesting, if it is the case

[18:26] #knownspace> Hippy: 'Juggler' might be referring to the Free Wunderland Conspiracy that Beowulf mentions in 'Borderland of Sol'

[18:27] #knownspace> Lensman: From "Fly-By-Night": I said, "There are species that can't tolerate it. Jotoki can't. Maybe puppeteers can't; most of them never leave their home system. Humans can use a mass pointer, a psionics device to find our way through hyperspace, as long as we don't look into the Blind Spot directly. But that's . . . well, part of a psionics device is the operator's mind. Computers don't see anything. Kzinti don't either. There are just a few

[18:27] #knownspace> Lensman: "It is the Patriarch's blood line," Paradoxical said. "After the first War with Men, when Kzinti acquired hyperdrive, they learned that most cannot astrogate through hyperspace. Some few can. The Patriarch paid with names and worlds to add their sisters and daughters to his harem. Today the -Ritts can fly hyperspace."

[18:28] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: did I tell you about my pet Kzin? I call her Chula Ritt :)

[18:30] #knownspace> Lensman: Marc Carlson's KS Timeline doesn't specify when Louis was part of the "Free Wunderland" conspiracy, so likely there's no date specified or suggested.

[18:30] #knownspace> rimworlder: gotta go crack the eggs and finish dinner

[18:32] #knownspace> Hippy: Did I tell you I have a litter of Kzinti? Troog Rrit, Ho-Lee Rrit, er. . .L'Eagle Rrit. . .

[18:32] #knownspace> Lensman: Pure speculation: Louis on one of his sabbaticals stumbles across explorers from New Terra. But he learns enuff that he decides to keep very, very mum about it.

[18:32] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: hahahahaha Hippy

[18:33] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: hm

[18:33] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: I don't think he'd keep quiet

[18:33] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: we're talking a HUGE crime against humanity

[18:33] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: and he wouldn't be so astounded by the fleet in RW if he had seen a flying planet before

[18:34] #knownspace> Lensman: Hippy: Um, hope that's a joke and not a cry for help? If the latter, pls call me at (U.S.) 913-721-2106

[18:34] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: I have a feeling that Louis Wu's memory has been modified. He can't remember Bey or Carlos' exploits.

[18:34] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: So the ARM or the Puppetters have modified his memory.

[18:34] #knownspace> AlexA: Thanks Lensman. The RC quote is clearer

[18:34] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: good point Merlin!

[18:34] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: You're absolutely right

[18:34] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: he was raised by them, yet had to have "Long Shot" explained by Nessus

[18:35] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, I didn't claim it's a very *good* idea. I can see Louis keeping the info to himself because of the implications, but then... nah, then he'd already know the Puppeteers were a lot more ruthless and manipulative than their public image indicates.

[18:35] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: but having his mind wiped

[18:35] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: we know that the puppeteers can

[18:35] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: look at Sigmund

[18:35] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: and

[18:36] #knownspace> rimworlder: din din time. later folks!

[18:36] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: if he had worked with Louis before it would rationalize WHY Nessus chose him for the RW expedition

[18:36] #knownspace> Jim: anyone still here?

[18:36] #knownspace> AlexA: Perhaps the RW Louis is a clone & memory copy in not complete

[18:36] #knownspace> Lensman: True re Puppeteer mind-wiping. But we've know about that from the first... from "A Relic of the Empire".

[18:36] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: It's actually Carlos after an Autodoc accident ;)

[18:36] #knownspace> Lensman: Jim: Welcome!

[18:37] #knownspace> Lensman: LOL

[18:37] #knownspace> AlexA: Or he had trauma and autodoc didn't restore memory

[18:37] #knownspace> Lensman: Bey had another run-in with Carlos' autodoc... he just *thinks* he's Louis.

[18:37] #knownspace> Dan: I wonder if Carlos didn't attempt a little mind-wiping of Louis in order to protect Bey & Sharrol.

[18:37] #knownspace> AlexA: Ooh louis is really carlos - that's a cool conspiracy theory

[18:38] #knownspace> Lensman: No, Louis is really Bey.

[18:38] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Then why keep the name Wu?

[18:38] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Eh, I don't buy that

[18:38] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: When they moved to Home they changed names.

[18:38] #knownspace> Dan: For the sake of Louis' fertility permits.

[18:38] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Carlos is a serious genius who invents things

[18:38] #knownspace> AlexA: Double bluff ?

[18:38] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Louis admits to not being creative

[18:38] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: When did the name Wu get readopted?

[18:39] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: EML said that family dynamics will be addressed in Betrayer

[18:39] #knownspace> Lensman: Louis wound up being raised by Carlos at the end of "Procrustes".

[18:39] #knownspace> Dan: I wonder what Louis' sister remembers.

[18:39] #knownspace> UncleNasty: are you saying we don't know which wu is who?

[18:39] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: We were talking about Truesdale -> Louis relation possibilites

[18:39] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Louie Whoie?

[18:39] #knownspace> AlexA: CubesForsythe: I don't think we know.

[18:40] #knownspace> Lensman: Louie Who?

[18:40] #knownspace> Dan: Or that famous Time Traveler Doctor Wu! LOL!

[18:40] #knownspace> UncleNasty: detective fiction? A Wu Done-it?

[18:40] #knownspace> Lensman: Louis' sister is barely mentioned. Tanya. She and Loius both wind up with Carlos at the end of "Procrustes". Louis and Sharrol go off with their own child to Home.

[18:41] #knownspace> Dan: Truesdale's kids would have to be Carlos' ancestors, then.

[18:41] #knownspace> AlexA: I'm not sure Louis being Beys "son" has been confirmed in print yet

[18:41] #knownspace> Lensman: Dan: Hmmm? Are you just spinning conspiracy theories, or is there a canonical indication of a connection between Truesdale and Carlos Wu?

[18:41] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: I understand that that was Niven's intent though.

[18:42] #knownspace> Dan: Not in canon, no. Just speculating.

[18:42] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: That Louis is the same Louis in the Bey stories.

[18:42] #knownspace> UncleNasty: there seem to be an awful lot of links through home, and who does truesdale love if not his descendents thru alice?

[18:43] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Carlos Wu has a son named Louis

[18:43] #knownspace> Lensman: This has been thoroughly discussed by Niven, and yes they're the same Louis. But no, it's never made explicit in the canon. Apparently, from what Ed says, it *will* be addressed explicitly in the next "...of Worlds" book.

[18:43] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: perhaps for reasons we will find out in Betrayer, Louis decided to take his bio-father's name

[18:43] #knownspace> Dan: Well, there is a point in canon wherein Louis states that his biological father was a supergenius- similar to Carlos, whose name they share.

[18:43] #knownspace> UncleNasty: back in a bit folks - got to retrieve my offspring

[18:43] #knownspace> AlexA: We confronted EML with the whole Home thing - he didn't really bite iirc

[18:43] #knownspace> Lensman: Oh, dang... Alice was pregnant by Truesdale! I forgot, but *he* certainly wouldn't! ...if he survived the war, that is.

[18:44] #knownspace> Dan: I believe that it's a throway line in "Ringworld."

[18:44] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: That' something else that we must consider the implications of:

[18:44] #knownspace> Lensman: Cubes: I don't see where there's any confusion. Carlos raised Bey as his own son, so the name is natural.

[18:44] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Truesdale's hypothetical laser message doesn't matter

[18:45] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Alice returned to Earth with more than half of the story already

[18:45] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Carlos raised Bey?????

[18:45] #knownspace> Dan: Cubes, that's a detail that most readers forget. I think that you're onto something, though.

[18:45] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: What are you talking about Lensman?

[18:46] #knownspace> Dan: Merlin, Lensman just typoed, that's all.

[18:46] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: hehe

[18:46] #knownspace> AlexA: I think Lensman meant louis not bey

[18:46] #knownspace> Lensman: It was Alice who made a suggestion which resulted in Brennan spotting the Pak scouts, so yes Alice knows about the Pak invasion fleet. Yet later it's never mentioned, so she certainly didn't broadcast the info across Sol System! Maybe she told the ARM and of course they sat on the knowledge.

[18:46] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: But when they moved to Home, they all changed their names.

[18:46] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: I agree with Lensman

[18:47] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: So when did it become Ok to be a Wu again?

[18:47] #knownspace> Lensman: Sure, Carlos Wu raised Bey. See the end of "Procrustes".

[18:47] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Dunno, Merlin

[18:47] #knownspace> AlexA: Wu knows? :)

[18:47] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Sounds like a question for Betrayer of Worlds :P

[18:47] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: agh enough Wu jokes! >.<

[18:48] #knownspace> Lensman: Er, sorry... Carlos raised Louis, not Bey! D'oh!

[18:48] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: I think you mean Carlos regrew Bey.

[18:48] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: (just kidding, wu doesn't love a good wu joke?)

[18:48] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: hehe

[18:48] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: See.

[18:48] #knownspace> Lensman: Guess I didn't get enuff sleep last nite, sorry.

[18:49] #knownspace> AlexA: I'm sceptical about all this wu-wu stuff anyway :)

[18:49] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: I don't buy the wu-wu conspiracy for a second

[18:50] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: The second Wu on the grassy kobold?

[18:50] #knownspace> Lensman: Oh, the conspiracy doesn't stop there. What about Lit Shaeffer and Bey, hmmm? Good thing Siggy never twigged to that generations-long conspiracy...

[18:51] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: They are probably all related to Donivan's brain.

[18:51] #knownspace> Lensman: The think about the ARM being run by a protector... Well as I said, I can't believe they wouldn't exterminate the Kzinti, but dang it sure is an attractive conspiracy theory innit?

[18:51] #knownspace> AlexA: Just realized something I meant to raise with EML

[18:51] #knownspace> Dan: I postulate that somehow the ARMs were placated enough for Louis to resume using Carlos' name. Dunno when, dunno how, but the result was that Louis did come out from under the pesudonym and start using his bio-father's name by the time we readers first met him. Either that or there are an aweful lot of "Wu"s in the general population of Known Space. Simplest solution is that Louis is Carlos' son by Bey's wife Sharrol. Either that or I'

[18:52] #knownspace> Lensman: Alex: You can e-mail Ed, he's quite approachable.

[18:52] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: It's the Known Space of Wu.

[18:52] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Lensman: yes, it is a wonderful conspiracy

[18:52] #knownspace> Hippy: What did I miss? (he asks rhetorically)

[18:52] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: oh well that you're right about the Kzinti

[18:53] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: L'eagle-Ritt

[18:53] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: >.<

[18:53] #knownspace> Lensman: Hippy: Well, I got rather concerned when you said you were gonna shoot yourself...

[18:53] #knownspace> AlexA: The apparently artificial nature of Plateau and Jinx

[18:53] #knownspace> Hippy: Lens: I missed - damn eyes, my aim is crap

[18:53] #knownspace> Dan: Lens, Hippy was just being shame-faced about his puns.

[18:54] #knownspace> Hippy: Indeed, Dan

[18:54] #knownspace> Hippy: I'm becomig all strange and introverted

[18:54] #knownspace> Lensman: I mean, if Brennan-monster exterminated the Martians, f' Finagle's sake, when they'd only killed a few dozen Humans... I just can't believe Human protectors would say "Oh, we've made peace with the Kzinti, no need to worry about them enslaving and eating thousands or millions of Humans again." Nope, not gonna fly.

[18:55] #knownspace> Dan: Welcome to the world of being a SF fan, Hippy! LOL!

[18:55] #knownspace> Hippy: LOL!!

[18:55] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: lol Dan, so true

[18:55] #knownspace> AlexA: What if Jinx was the mother of all Stasis boxes?

[18:55] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Whoa, AlexA... What?

[18:56] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: I would think the Puppeters would be fist on the Human Protectors hit list.

[18:56] #knownspace> Dan: No, not Jinx, but Plateau. We've already established that Mount Lookithat can't be a natural formation.

[18:56] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Passive Aggressive herbavores must go!

[18:56] #knownspace> Lensman: Dan: Okay, sorry if I took the suicide joke too seriously. 'Cuz sometimes when people joke about that, they're not joking.

[18:56] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Dan, who is to say what isn't possible out there?

[18:57] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: You mean Wu is to say.

[18:57] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, I always will be, Lens

[18:57] #knownspace> AlexA: Jinx's shape is not possible (even if it was diamond). Therefore must be scrith or stasis field

[18:57] #knownspace> AlexA: Same for Plateau

[18:57] #knownspace> Dan: Lens, I know that altogether too well. But your concern for a friend is to your credit.

[18:57] #knownspace> Lensman: I don't get the concern about Louis using the "Wu" name. Didn't Carlos stay on Earth? What would Louis have to hide?

[18:57] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Fairly sure they all went to Home.

[18:58] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Lens, weren't you just talking about Procrustes? Carlos stole his autodoc from the UN

[18:58] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: And changed their name to avoid capture by ARM.

[18:58] #knownspace> Lensman: Oh, that is what I'd *really* love to have the "...of Worlds" stories address! The impossibility of Jinx!

[18:58] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: he was a fugitive

[18:58] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Carlos is not something the ARM would willingly let go of.

[18:59] #knownspace> Lensman: Hmmm I thought we'd established that Mt. Lookitthat *could* be natural if it was an enormous diamond.

[18:59] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: And add to that the small matter of 2 missing ARM agents.

[19:00] #knownspace> Dan: Well, some of the mathmaticians in the Niven List argued that the single mountain on Plateau would be too massive to keep its shape unless some stasis fields or scrith were involved within its structure. And now that it's been mentioned, I recall the same sort of argument concerning Jinx being un-natural, too.

[19:00] #knownspace> Lensman: Jinx... well okay, it's a stasis field. But you'd think that someone would have noticed that by a deep radar ping... so it's not.

[19:00] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: They always deep radar ping

[19:00] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: For Luck.

[19:00] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: that theory's bust in my opinion

[19:00] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: You mean Feather and Sigmund, Merlin?

[19:00] #knownspace> Lensman: Maybe Jinx was the test-bed for the Tnuctipun development of scrith. Or something scrith-like-- such as twing or something in between twing and scrith?

[19:00] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Yes

[19:01] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Still would reflect more neutrinos than normal

[19:01] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: so it can't be the case

[19:01] #knownspace> Dan: Lens, I thought the consensus was that even diamond wouldn't be strong enough for Plateau? Of course, I can't claim an infallable memory.

[19:01] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Feather was used to reconstruct Bey and the Puppeters took Sigmund.

[19:01] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Post mortem, so to speak.

[19:01] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Right

[19:01] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: yeah

[19:01] UncleNasty has joined #knownspace

[19:02] #knownspace> Lensman: According to the last discussion I recall, it's physically possible for Mt. Lookitthat to be 40 miles high if it's a low-grade diamond. Jinx ain't possible no-how, not without an "artificial material".

[19:02] AlexA has joined #knownspace

[19:02] #knownspace> Dan: I bow to your powers of memory recall, Lens.

[19:03] #knownspace> AlexA: Back

[19:03] #knownspace> Lensman: Okay, let's postulate that Jinx *does* reflect more neutrinos than normal. So it's filed as an anomaly, and then gets ignored.

[19:03] #knownspace> AlexA: iPod battery rsn flat

[19:03] #knownspace> Hippy: Jinx may be impossible, yet it's still there. I wonder if it knows it's impossible?

[19:03] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: You really think that the Institute of Knowledge... on Jinx... would ignore a planet-sized anomally like that.. on Jinx?

[19:04] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, I wrote an article about Jinx and Mt. Lookitthat:

[19:04] #knownspace> Lensman: http://www.freewebs.com/knownspace/articles.htm#Jinx

[19:04] #knownspace> Lensman: ...which is certainly not to say that should be the last word!

[19:04] #knownspace> AlexA: CubesForsythe: Or they know the truth & are covering it up

[19:05] #knownspace> Hippy: What if the gravitational constant is only a local effect?

[19:05] #knownspace> Lensman: Okay, so you're in the Jinx Institute of Knowledge and you want to investigate why Jinx reflects (absorbs?) more neutrinos than it ought to. What do you do? It's not like you can drill down hundreds of miles into the core...

[19:06] #knownspace> Lensman: If the gravitational constant is only a local effect, then distant galaxies should look quite different than they do.

[19:06] #knownspace> Lensman: Distant stars within our galaxy, too.

[19:07] #knownspace> Dan: Lens, you'd have to improve Deep Radar to get better readings, but what sort of readings would give you better info about the structure of the planet?

[19:07] #knownspace> AlexA: You should point eml at that article Lensman

[19:07] #knownspace> Hippy: No, their gravtiational constant might be the same as our local one by coincidence

[19:08] #knownspace> Hippy: Whereas around Sirius and. . ..Tau Ceti it's diferent

[19:08] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Eh. we're forgetting something here

[19:08] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: We have magic technology at work

[19:08] #knownspace> Dan: What are we forgetting, Cubes?

[19:08] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: why not a magic planet

[19:09] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Outsider Hyperdrive works because Larry Niven says it does

[19:09] #knownspace> Lensman: Deep radar should indeed be able to give a picture of the interior of a planet. So if Jinx is a thin shell of rock over a scrith-like substance, that should be apparent on deep radar. Now this could be covered up on the planet itself, but given the penchant of people to *ping* a system on deep radar when they come in, even if it's an inhabited world... how can we justify no one noticing? Maybe neutrino emittors placed at various poi

[19:09] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Just like Jinx is the way it is because he tells us it's that way

[19:09] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: I dunno

[19:09] #knownspace> Hippy: Yes. and it's not good sciene to observe a phenbomenon and go 'That doesn't fit my model, so it doesn't exist'

[19:09] #knownspace> AlexA: Oddly the sequel novel Blakes 7: Afterlife has the Egg-shaped artificial planet Terminus capable of interstellar travel :)

[19:09] #knownspace> Hippy: Although by Beowulf's time it might be considered as such

[19:09] #knownspace> Dan: Ooooookay... The Magic Ma Return and in this case it returned to Jinx and Plateau?

[19:10] #knownspace> Dan: Ma=May

[19:10] #knownspace> Lensman: Well of course if you want to invoke magic or Clarke's Law you can explain away anything. But Jinx is set in a series which is at least nominally hard-SF... so I wouldn't look to magic for the solution.

[19:11] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Nominally hard, but with stepping disks and hyperdrive and stasis fields and scrith and twing?

[19:11] #knownspace> Dan: Hmmm... A light shell over a gravatational source such that people landing on the planet think it's just a little bit odd, but still inhabitable on the surface?

[19:11] #knownspace> Lensman: The thing is, if we say "the gravitational force varies according to location"... then it's not Known Space. "Neutron Star" doesn't work as a puzzle story, for instance.

[19:12] #knownspace> Hippy: It's a giant calculator under the surface

[19:12] #knownspace> Lensman: The shell of Jinx doesn't have to be empty. It could be a honeycomb with plenty of mass inside, so we don't need an artificial gravity source to give the planet gravity.

[19:13] #knownspace> AlexA: I guess scrith, to hulls and stasis fields could be considerred magical in the Clarkian sense

[19:13] #knownspace> Lensman: Nominally hard-SF but with psionic powers, Mt. Lookitthat and Jinx!

[19:13] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Heh, yeah.

[19:13] #knownspace> Lensman: And some other anomolies, such as a breathable atmosphere on a planet orbiting Mira.

[19:14] #knownspace> Hippy: What's that one?

[19:14] #knownspace> Dan: So what you're saying is that Jinx might be a scrith-like shell overtop a junior-varsity sized neutron star core or black hole, and if so might there not be a way to turn it into a great big starship using Kzin-style gravity polarizers as reactionless thrusters?

[19:15] #knownspace> AlexA: I've expounded on why LN thought psionics were hard Sf before

[19:15] #knownspace> Dan: Sorry, I was typing too slowly to take your last message into account.

[19:15] #knownspace> Lensman: In "A Relic of the Empire", there's a planet orbiting Mira (a red supergiant variable star) with a breathable atmosphere. Similar objections to Gummidgy, with its star being a variable.

[19:16] #knownspace> Hippy: OUR star is a variable

[19:16] #knownspace> Lensman: I don't think we need the neutron star or black hole at the center of Jinx. If it was that, the gravitational gradient would be all wrong, and any star pilot would notice that. But sure, if Jinx is artificial, then that implies it was moved and that it may have a stardrive.

[19:17] #knownspace> Lensman: Besides, Jinx orbits a star too young for it to have evolved an ecosystem, so we know it was moved anyway!

[19:17] #knownspace> Lensman: Alex: Please repeat your exposition on why LN thought psionics fit in a hard-SF universe.

[19:18] #knownspace> AlexA: That's where the tnuctipun are hiding?

[19:18] #knownspace> Dan: Sorry Lensman, I have a natural tendency to theorize superscience explanations when none are needed. I blame Doc Smith and Campbell for that, LOL!

[19:19] #knownspace> Lensman: I personally would not be happy with a planet-size stasis field. That's moving Known Space too far into the realms of super-science... into Skylark/Lensman territory.

[19:20] #knownspace> Dan: Agreed.

[19:20] #knownspace> Lensman: IMO of course. Moving the entire Ringworld thru hyperspace... well, that's pretty boggling too!

[19:20] #knownspace> AlexA: I haven't researched this, but there were experiments by a respected lab ( maybe MIT) in 60s/70s which showed "real" psi effects. The cards with symbols tests

[19:20] #knownspace> Dan: I think that Larry could write his way out of that particular corner now that we've realized that it is a corner.

[19:20] #knownspace> AlexA: They were discredited later

[19:20] #knownspace> Hippy: The Rhine experiments?

[19:20] #knownspace> Lensman: Dan: Hey, your opinion is as good as mine. Sorry to be a wet blanket!

[19:21] #knownspace> AlexA: Could be hippy

[19:21] #knownspace> Dan: Not a wet blanket, more of an air-check-my-head fellow brainstormer.

[19:21] #knownspace> Lensman: Alex: Ah yes, parapsychology was once on the verge of being "respected". Thanx for the reminder.

[19:21] #knownspace> Hippy: They were discredited. I read a good explanaion of the results as a statistical fluke, but I must say I don't remember the exact details of it

[19:21] #knownspace> Hippy: The Rhine ones were done in the 30's

[19:22] #knownspace> Lensman: I just took LN's inclusion of psionics in KS as following the Campbell model. But yes, I think LN did specifically reference parapsychology experiments in his writings.

[19:23] #knownspace> Lensman: Alex: No, don't let me off the hook. A rule of brainstorming is you don't negate what the other guy says.

[19:23] #knownspace> Hippy: 'World of Ptavvs' - he mentions experiements that Greenerg had been in high school

[19:23] #knownspace> Dan: Well, Larry did want telepathy to work in "Ptavvs" so that's entirely rational given the framework.

[19:23] #knownspace> Lensman: Thanx Hippy.

[19:23] #knownspace> Hippy: including 'a weird test for teleportation that everybody failed' if I recall correctly

[19:23] #knownspace> AlexA: Lensman: Thats what my vague recollection is

[19:24] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, /Ptavvs/ does not work at all w/o psionics. It's central to the plot.

[19:24] #knownspace> Hippy: 'The mechanisms in the right partietal lobe were well mapped. They just didn't work for most people'

[19:25] #knownspace> Lensman: And in /Ringworld/, Louis objects when Nessus calls telepathy a "psychic power" because it's well understood. *Snicker* The author having fun there!

[19:25] #knownspace> Hippy: And they were still talking about RNA memory based on flatworm experiments that were discredited during the 60's

[19:25] #knownspace> Dan: Speaking of teleportation, I have been watching X-Men cartoons recetly and it amazes me how often the script gets the conservation of momentum right, and then five minutes later gets it wrong.

[19:26] #knownspace> Lensman: Yah, well that is central to "Rammer" but did the RNA learning thing ever creep into KS? I don't recall that it did. I think it's in "The Fourth Profession" too, which is Leshy Circuit.

[19:26] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: RNA memory is mentioned in Protector

[19:26] #knownspace> AlexA: I think LN did a good job of extrapolating from then real science

[19:26] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: but just in passing

[19:27] #knownspace> Hippy: Hmm. . .good question, Lens

[19:27] #knownspace> Lensman: But then, "Rammer" was originally in the Leshy Circuit, until it was kidnapped and put into The State series.

[19:27] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: when the ARM and the hypnotist are trying to figure out where Truesdale's memory went

[19:27] #knownspace> AlexA: Occupational hazard that science moves on later :)

[19:27] #knownspace> Dan: Good thing that Larry isn't having to correct the stories for refinements in science.

[19:27] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: See ye all next month if possible. Must go to dinner.

[19:27] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: bye

[19:28] #knownspace> Dan: See you then, Merlin!

[19:28] #knownspace> Lensman: Okay pls remind me of the RNA reference in /Protector/. Is it when Brennan tells Truesdale he wiped his mind completely and then replaced most but not all his memory?

[19:28] #knownspace> Hippy: I wonder if you could reconcile the State and Leshy Circuit series?

[19:28] #knownspace> AlexA: Seeya merlin

[19:28] #knownspace> Hippy: 'Bye Merlin

[19:28] #knownspace> Lensman: 'Bye Merlin! Are you on the LarryNiven-l list?

[19:29] #knownspace> AlexA: The nicks are puzzling me. Who is on lnl (& by what name)

[19:29] #knownspace> Lensman: I think I decided they couldn't be reconciled, but at the moment I don't remember why.

[19:29] #knownspace> Dan: I'm on the list as Dan Hollifield, but I rarely post.

[19:30] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, I'm Lensman... :P~~~

[19:30] #knownspace> Lensman: And Cubes? Are you on lnl?

[19:31] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: well, I just found out that my fiancee decided to get dinner with her family and not tell me so... i've been sitting her hungry for a while for nothing. Guess i'm going to Taco Bell, be back later

[19:31] #knownspace> AlexA: Doesn't ln address this (leshy vs state) in Plygrounds/Scatterbrain/Nspace?

[19:31] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: and no, what is that?

[19:31] #knownspace> Lensman: Cubes: The Larry Niven Discussion List. Here, I'll get the URL:

[19:31] #knownspace> Dan: The e-mailing list for Niven fans.

[19:31] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: This is pretty much the first time I've come out from under the sci-fi rock and talked with another human about known space, so I don't know what any of this is

[19:32] #knownspace> Lensman: http://www.larryniven-l.org/

[19:32] #knownspace> Dan: Well! Welcome to the insanity, Cubes. I hope we're not too weird for you.

[19:32] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: I didn't know what IRC was until this morning

[19:32] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: haha, not too strange for me : )

[19:33] #knownspace> Hippy: AlexA: hmm. . ..sadly I can't read well enough to look that up. But I would like to see what his explanation is

[19:33] #knownspace> Dan: Good, 'cause it's been a lot of fun having you in the chat.

[19:33] #knownspace> Lensman: Be warned it's a fairly high-volume discussion list, and it's not restricted to on-topic posts. If you want to chat with Niven fans everyday there's the url. Expect to get 50+ e-mails a day.

[19:33] #knownspace> AlexA: Larry mentions it in some of his introductions (maybe as The Bucknell List)

[19:34] #knownspace> AlexA: Most of them from Lensman :)

[19:34] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: interesting

[19:34] #knownspace> Lensman: Alex: I would object if it weren't all too true... :)

[19:35] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: nice

[19:35] #knownspace> Lensman: Yeah, it was mentioned in /Ringworld's Children/ which is what prompted me to join.

[19:36] #knownspace> AlexA: I joined earlier than RC so he must say soething elsewhere

[19:36] #knownspace> Dan: Cubes, arguments on the Niven List are partly responsible for "Ringworld's Children" having been written. Larry likes it when we spark him to address questions he didn't realize he'd created while he was writing other stories.

[19:37] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Right, I remember that being mentioned in the forward

[19:37] #knownspace> AlexA: The good stuff on lnl is good, but the politics & religion arguments can be awful (IMHO)

[19:38] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: usually political and religious arguments are

[19:38] #knownspace> AlexA: And were famous for topic drift

[19:38] #knownspace> Lensman: Oh yes, LN did mention the list before RC. I was belated in joining.

[19:38] #knownspace> Dan: Having met Larry at a convention, I can tell you that he's one of the most genuinely nice people on the planet. I can also tell you that Jerry Pournelle doesn't enjoy having his time wasted, LOL!

[19:39] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: haha!

[19:39] #knownspace> Dan: I only know Ed through chat, but he seems a great a guy as Larry & Jerry are.

[19:39] #knownspace> AlexA: JerryP wastes enough of his own time? :)

[19:40] #knownspace> AlexA: Check out www.jerrypournelle.com

[19:40] #knownspace> Dan: Alex, lets just say that Jerry doesn't suffer fools, neither gladly nor at all!

[19:40] #knownspace> AlexA: I'm sure

[19:41] #knownspace> Lensman: Jerry certainly seems to spend a lot of time blogging. But then that's probably less than the time I spend doing e-mails in an average day.

[19:41] #knownspace> AlexA: Only joking

[19:42] #knownspace> Dan: Jerry is a fast typist. He can put out more words per day than I can in a week.

[19:42] #knownspace> AlexA: Considering his recent health issues Im impressed on JerryPs work rate

[19:43] #knownspace> AlexA: He's working on next Janissaries novel, which I'm looking forward to

[19:43] #knownspace> Dan: Jerry is amazing, really. I'm beginning to doubt that he *can* give up on something.

[19:44] #knownspace> AlexA: Not sure about new asteroid novel - hope they find something new and interesting to say

[19:44] #knownspace> Dan: If the universe suddenly came to a screeching halt, I think Larry would be there to point out where it needed a push and Jerry would be there to smack the shit out of it until it started moving again.

[19:45] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Well, it's been fun! I'm going to be away for a while, if no one's here when I get back, then thanks for the great discussion. I have so much to speculate on now! (Here's a starter for you guys: Assumption 1: Alice had her mouth shut by the ARM when she returned to Earth. Assumption 2: The ARM knows about the fleet and has kept it a secret.

[19:45] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Brennan said that the core must have exploded, so the ARM knew about that before Bey did as well.

[19:45] #knownspace> Dan: Cubes, I agree with 1 and disagree with 2.

[19:46] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: The puppeteers ran from something. If the ARM knew about the fleet, why not tell Sigmund about it? That seems fairly crucial to me.)

[19:46] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, unfortunately Jerry gave up on writing a sequel to Piper's /Space Viking/ :(

[19:46] #knownspace> Dan: If you'd said "suspects" rather than "Knows" I'd agree completely.

[19:48] #knownspace> Dan: Lensman, it'd take at least three writers working together to put out a Space Viking seque worthy of Beam, and you know it. :)

[19:48] #knownspace> Lensman: Yeah, after /Lucifer's Hammer/ and /Footfall/-- in which they re-developed the *original* story which became /Lucifer's Hammer/-- how much is there left for Larry & Jerry to say about "big thing smashes into the Earth?"

[19:48] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: suspects/knows - same difference for all intents and purposes. Sigmund's job was to track the puppeteers. If the ARM suspected a fleet of super solider genocidal genius maniacs flying toward them, why not assume that's what the pupeteer are running from? Seems like very important info.)

[19:48] #knownspace> AlexA: Haven't read Escape yet, but really liked burning tower (more than city)

[19:48] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: anyway, away from keyboard, cheers everyone.

[19:49] #knownspace> Dan: Bye, Cubes!

[19:49] #knownspace> Hippy: Aren't they doing a 'big thing hits Earth' set in 'Burning City' 's time?

[19:49] #knownspace> AlexA: Bye CubesForsythe

[19:49] #knownspace> Hippy: 'Bye Cubes

[19:49] #knownspace> Hippy: Careful with those explosives

[19:50] #knownspace> Lensman: I really liked /The Burning City/! Haven't read /Tower/ yet, am astonished at lack of nice things said about /City/.

[19:50] #knownspace> Lensman: "Big thing hits Earth" set in the Warlock's Era was "Chicxsulub", I think.

[19:51] #knownspace> Hippy: I suspect people were peeved at the complexity of Yangin-Atep's behaviour.

[19:51] #knownspace> Hippy: And that got them upset with the rest of the book

[19:51] #knownspace> AlexA: I wondered if as UKer I didn't get City

[19:51] #knownspace> Hippy: Lens - never heard of 'Chixxsulub'

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[19:52] #knownspace> Hippy: As an Australian I didn't get it either

[19:52] #knownspace> Lensman: Well I'm just out of the mainstream here. I didn't care for /Destiny's Road/ but loved /The Burning City/.

[19:52] #knownspace> AlexA: I missed all the stuff listed in Wikipedia article (eg OJ Simpson)

[19:52] #knownspace> Dan: Uncle, do you need more duct tape?

[19:52] #knownspace> Lensman: "Chixsulub" (sp?) is a pretty new, uncollected story in the Warlock's Era series.

[19:53] #knownspace> Hippy: Oh, good. I thought I'd missed a new anthology

[19:54] #knownspace> Lensman: Alex: Me too. I did slap my forehead over O.J. Simpson. Yeah, blindingly obvious in hindsight! No, I just enjoyed the "The man who learns better" story, even tho it was rather long. *Shrug* don't ask me to explain logically my emotional reaction. I really liked it, that's all.

[19:55] #knownspace> AlexA: Seach Jerrys site, I think recent thinking is that new asteroid novel is modern (or near future) and Lucifers Hammer has been read by characters in the novel

[19:55] #knownspace> Lensman: I admit it did take me awhile to get "into" the story of /The Burning City/, tho. I had to take two tries at it.

[19:55] #knownspace> Lensman: LOL recursive SF.

[19:55] #knownspace> AlexA: A bit self-referential^

[19:57] #knownspace> Dan: I can't knock "Footfall" or "Lucifer's Hammer" at all, since I used both for reference material for my Nightwatch novel "Fly By Wire." That said, I doubt that the Nightwatch series creator would have let me get away with as much slillness as he did if he'd known more about Doc Savage, Buccaroo Banzai, Nicola Tesla, Man From UNCLE, X-Men, and popular astronomy than he did. LOL!

[19:57] #knownspace> Lensman: The title "Chixsulub" (sp?) BTW is a reference to the dinosaur-killer asteroid impact. It's set a long time-- many thousands of years-- before the other Warlock's Era stories.

[19:58] #knownspace> AlexA: I'm still not sure I get the set up in Tepps Town -lords lordkin and the rest

[20:00] #knownspace> Lensman: Lords are the rich people who live in the good part of town; lordkin are the gangs who live by extorting from the "kinless", which are the working-class.

[20:00] #knownspace> Dan: I still need to buy "Burning City/Tower/etc."

[20:01] #knownspace> Dan: I hate having to stick to a budget. Mortgage payments have to be made on time, though.

[20:02] #knownspace> AlexA: No sign of the third - Burning Mountain :(

[20:02] #knownspace> Lensman: I found it fascinating to read a character study starring someone who lives by being a parasite on others. The mind-set and the rationalizations are fascinating. Of course, by the end of the book he

[20:02] #knownspace> Dan: But sometimes I miss the old days of having a third of my paycheck to use buying books and music every week.

[20:03] #knownspace> Lensman: he's become a worthy individual, and that's part of the story of "The man who learned better".

[20:04] #knownspace> AlexA: Not sure why the lords tolerate the lordkin - is the point that they don't care

[20:04] #knownspace> AlexA: The whole settup just didn't ring true for me

[20:05] #knownspace> Hippy: Aren't the lordkin the lord's mercenaries?

[20:05] #knownspace> Lensman: Alex: I found that troubling, too. Seems like the Lords would have it much better off if they wiped out the Lordkin and just delt with the Kinless directly.

[20:06] #knownspace> Lensman: Alex: Yes, I found it not very believable that the Lords had such an entirely segregated existance. Of course that was N&P creating an analog of Los Angeles, but still... as you say, it didn't seem to "work" in the context of the story.

[20:07] #knownspace> Lensman: Hippy: No, the Lords' mercenaries are professional soldiers, and can beat up on the wimpy Lordkin any ol' day.

[20:07] #knownspace> Lensman: See now, that's where I thought N&P made their mistake. If the Lords had used the Lordkin for their guards, then the setup would have made sense.

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[20:08] #knownspace> Lensman: But then, it wouldn't have paralleled the situation in Los Angeles.

[20:08] #knownspace> AlexA: Reading the wikipedia artcle about the unsubtle anagrams for real people makes it even less apealing

[20:09] #knownspace> Lensman: I score an "F" in anagrams. I deliberately waited until after I'd read the book before reading the Wiki article to see what clues/ parallels I missed.

[20:09] #knownspace> AlexA: Unfortunately I also found the travelog once they left the city very dull

[20:10] #knownspace> AlexA: Whereas Tower is much more of an action adventure

[20:10] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, I found the parts outside the city more interesting than the parts in. That's why I was able to "get into" the story and really enjoy it.

[20:11] #knownspace> Lensman: Hopefully I'll enjoy /Tower/ as much as everyone else.

[20:12] #knownspace> Hippy: It's a pretty good read

[20:12] #knownspace> Hippy: . . .which is not to say I want to read it again

[20:12] #knownspace> Lensman: Damning with faint praise, Hippy?

[20:13] #knownspace> AlexA: I just read High Justice & Exiles to Glory by JP

[20:13] #knownspace> AlexA: Latter is better of the two

[20:14] #knownspace> Lensman: Re re-read /Destiny's Road/ fairly recently, because I couldn't remember anything about it, not even why I didn't care for it other than I kept waiting for something to happen but it never did. The second time at least I understood it was a character study, not really an adventure story... altho it reads like one.

[20:14] #knownspace> AlexA: I'd reread Tower, not sure about city

[20:14] #knownspace> AlexA: I liked Road

[20:14] #knownspace> Lensman: Er, "Re-read" not "Re re-read". Clearly I'm getting tired.

[20:15] #knownspace> AlexA: I'm pretty sure some of it is autobiographical

[20:16] #knownspace> AlexA: The surfing bit - I'm pretty sure larry has mentioned learning to surf

[20:16] #knownspace> Dan: I keep waiting for a sequel to "Destiny's Road" in which something exciting happens alongeside the character study, but I'm not going to hold my breath while I wait for it.

[20:17] #knownspace> Lensman: x

[20:17] #knownspace> Dan: I'd read the original twice in the same day at work, and was sure that there had to be more of the story out there.

[20:18] #knownspace> Lensman: -/Destiny's Road/ seems like such a contrived story to me. Far too many times Jemmy pulls out the metaphorical "script immunity" or "plot device" card for my taste. And the entire setup of the civilization is artificial and contrived, also.

[20:19] #knownspace> Lensman: Dan: Wow, your reading speed must be something fantastic!

[20:19] #knownspace> AlexA: Isn't the contrived setup part of the point

[20:20] #knownspace> Lensman: Alex: Well yes, but it's an artificial setup which I cannot believe would happen in reality.

[20:20] #knownspace> Dan: The contrived society might have just been the point of the story: That some worlds which had been colonized might require very artificial and structured societies to keep the colinists from dying off.

[20:20] #knownspace> AlexA: He's a guinea pig who discovers he's a guinea pig AND saves the other guinea pigs

[20:21] #knownspace> Dan: Argh! I hate my typos.

[20:21] #knownspace> Dan: :)

[20:21] #knownspace> AlexA: Your meaning got through

[20:22] #knownspace> Dan: Still, my inner editor is presently horsewhipping my back to ribbons.

[20:22] #knownspace> AlexA: It's the autocorrect that gets me

[20:23] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, I thought when he stumbled-- by a coincidence which would almost make ERB blush-- into the one spot on the entire island/continent where speckles grew, that it would turn out there was something in the volcanic soil there that enabled the speckles plants to grow there. When it turned out they would grow anywhere they were planted... well, I just don't believe that in all that time no fertile speckles seeds were accidentally carr

[20:23] #knownspace> AlexA: Sf gets changed to at unless I overide for example

[20:23] #knownspace> Dan: Autocorrect is something that I don't have to suffer. At least I have the pleasure of knowing that any typos I make are truely mine.

[20:24] #knownspace> UncleNasty: back again

[20:25] #knownspace> Lensman: I've turned of most or all the autocorrect functions in WordPerfect, which is my standard word processor. I get tired of it "correcting" me if frex I type two spaces in a row.

[20:25] #knownspace> Hippy: Good to see (for sufficiently broad definition sof the verb)

[20:25] #knownspace> Dan: And at 52 years of age, I have so few things that I can call my own any more that I value even my typos. :)

[20:25] #knownspace> AlexA: Apple or Colloquy think they know best. I'm not sure I can turn it off.

[20:25] #knownspace> Lensman: I beat you by one year, Dan. :) 53 here.

[20:26] #knownspace> Dan: Besides, typos sometimes make for good alien/alternate timeline words and names for things.

[20:26] #knownspace> Hippy: 47 here, but I blame relativity for that

[20:26] #knownspace> AlexA: Well Larry says save your typos for alien words/devices

[20:26] #knownspace> Dan: Larry's damn right on that point! :)

[20:26] #knownspace> Lensman: Typos = alien language: Well, Larry certainly agrees!

[20:26] #knownspace> AlexA: 42

[20:26] #knownspace> AlexA: Really

[20:27] #knownspace> Lensman: Something we all can agree on. :)

[20:28] #knownspace> Lensman: Alex: So what *is* the ultimate question to the meaning of life, the universe and everything?

[20:28] #knownspace> UncleNasty: Lensman: bacon

[20:28] #knownspace> Dan: Lens, I tried Word Perfect for a couple of years, but in the end I couldn't stand it. I use Nvu now. That's the old Mozilla HTML composer.

[20:28] #knownspace> Lensman: <Homer voice> Mmmmmm bacon...

[20:29] #knownspace> AlexA: Use base 13

[20:29] #knownspace> Hippy: I've been speculating how you would do that in Excel

[20:29] #knownspace> Lensman: I've been using WordPerfect since I was still using Windoz 3.11, and it was a text-based program rather than graphical... so wasn't WYSIWYG.

[20:29] #knownspace> Hippy: Actually, base 12. I was trying to think of an Elvish spreadsheet

[20:30] #knownspace> AlexA: WordPerfect was our wordprocessor at work for a while. Now MS Word

[20:30] #knownspace> Dan: The ultimate question of life, the universe, and everything? "How many times should I ask my wife for sex before giving up and buying a copy of Penthouse so that I can see a naked female sentient?" Usually Lyn relents after about the 3rd request, or so. LOL!

[20:31] #knownspace> UncleNasty: Dan: TMI!!

[20:31] #knownspace> AlexA: Used Lex on a Vax earlier

[20:32] #knownspace> Dan: It was a joke anyway. Neither of us has to ask, we just look at each other and know when it's the right time.

[20:32] #knownspace> Hippy: Something to think about if I'm ever in Georgia

[20:32] #knownspace> AlexA: You can use logs to convert between bases Hippy

[20:33] #knownspace> Hippy: But how would you represent it on a spreadsheet?

[20:33] #knownspace> Hippy: This all started when I was pondering a spreadsheet with the old 'Imperial' currency

[20:34] #knownspace> Hippy: Then I thought: 'Well, surely the Elves (Tolkien) would have spreadhseets one day. How would they do it?'

[20:34] #knownspace> AlexA: Not sure what you need Hippy. How about a column for units, one for 12s etc?

[20:36] Tanada has joined #knownspace

[20:36] #knownspace> UncleNasty: hi Tanada

[20:37] #knownspace> Dan: Hello, Tananda.

[20:37] #knownspace> Lensman: LOL

[20:37] #knownspace> AlexA: Hi

[20:37] #knownspace> Dan: Oops! Too many "N"s in there.

[20:37] #knownspace> AlexA: Brb

[20:38] #knownspace> Lensman: Let's hear it for non-verbal communication.

[20:38] #knownspace> Hippy: AlexA: the two column ideas would work, but the Elves used a base 12 number system, so they represented 11 and 12 with one character. So how would you make Excel do the same?

[20:38] #knownspace> Hippy: G'day, Tanada

[20:38] #knownspace> UncleNasty: Hippy: write a function to convert for you I guess

[20:39] #knownspace> Hippy: If you're talking some VBA thing I'm afraid that is beyond me

[20:39] #knownspace> Dan: Too bad that they used a single character for 11 and 12. Otherwise, there is a Schoolhouse Rock shor subject that would cover it nicely.

[20:39] #knownspace> UncleNasty: nah - excel has (i'm pretty sure) a base conversion function you can use inline

[20:40] #knownspace> Hippy: I had thought of somehow telling Excel to recognise 'A' and 'B' as numbers 10 and 11, but I only got as far as that, not how to atually do it

[20:40] #knownspace> UncleNasty: Hippy: http://www.geocities.com/oosterwal/computer/excelbaseconversion.html

[20:41] #knownspace> Tanada: Hey I fanally got connected :) Hi everyone!

[20:41] #knownspace> Hippy: Holy crap! I've been surfing for AGES trying to find something

[20:41] #knownspace> UncleNasty: or http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071010014844AA1ssjF

[20:41] #knownspace> Dan: The Schoolhouse Rock clip used imaginary numbers for 10, 11, and 12. the counting went "one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, dec, el, do."

[20:41] #knownspace> UncleNasty: Hippy: my google-fu is string today

[20:41] #knownspace> UncleNasty: tho my spelling is weak >:-(

[20:42] #knownspace> UncleNasty: strong*

[20:42] #knownspace> UncleNasty: the second link looks more promising

[20:43] #knownspace> AlexA: Yeah

[20:43] #knownspace> Tanada: Too bad we don't use Octol like the Kzinti, it makes a lot more dsense when you are doing math.

[20:44] #knownspace> UncleNasty: there are 10 kinds of people in the world...

[20:44] #knownspace> UncleNasty: those that work in binary, and those that don't

[20:44] #knownspace> Lensman: In the OpenOffice clone of Excel: "BASE -- Converts a positive integer to a specified base into a text from the numbering system. The digits 0-9 and the letters A-Z are used.

[20:44] #knownspace> Dan: Good Lord, I've remembered something from the '70s! Obviously I never did as many drugs as my contemporaries. :)

[20:44] #knownspace> AlexA: It would be nice to avoid VBA IMHO

[20:44] #knownspace> UncleNasty: Dan: look into dozenal numeric system

[20:45] #knownspace> UncleNasty: vba is the spawn of the devil

[20:45] #knownspace> Lensman: I thought base 12 was supposed to be best? At least it makes it easier when doing fractions such as 1/3 and 1/4.

[20:45] #knownspace> UncleNasty: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duodecimal

[20:46] #knownspace> UncleNasty: the fans prefer dozenal to duodecimal for linguistic reasons

[20:46] #knownspace> Tanada: 1/4 in base eight is .2

[20:47] #knownspace> AlexA: Didn't Babylonians use base 60 - that's where 360 degree circle comes from

[20:47] #knownspace> Dan: Base 36 always seemed to make the most sense to me, after base 10. At least with base 36 one gets to use the entire alphabet as well as all the numerals.

[20:47] #knownspace> UncleNasty: 12 makes better sense

[20:47] #knownspace> UncleNasty: it _is_ the smallest number with 4 non-trivial factors, after all :P

[20:47] #knownspace> Tanada: 12 is only better for 1/3rd IMO, maybe for 1/6th as well. But a lot more fractions terminate as numerical equivelents in both Octol and Dozenal

[20:48] #knownspace> AlexA: Of course English predecimal money used a wonderful mix of bases

[20:48] #knownspace> Tanada: yes Babylonia used base 60, Maya used base 20

[20:49] #knownspace> Dan: I do frequently find myself having to use time measurements in math problems at work, though.

[20:49] #knownspace> Hippy: They look to do the trick, UncleN. Thanks!

[20:50] #knownspace> Tanada: The reason we have terms for Eleven and Twelve instead of saying One-teen and Two-teen is because Dozenal was used for a lot of merchandise up until recently. A Dozem Gross and Great Gross, 12, 144, 1728?

[20:50] #knownspace> UncleNasty: and you can count to 12 on one hand by using your thumb to mark finger joints

[20:50] #knownspace> Hippy: Great Gross! I knew there had to be a term for it

[20:50] #knownspace> Lensman: E-mail memo to gov't employees: "When writing e-mails, strive to avoid using TLAs."

[20:51] #knownspace> Dan: Count to twelve? Without using your ears? How un-Vulcan! LOL!

[20:51] #knownspace> Lensman: Base 60? Tanj, *that* would be a learning curve!

[20:51] #knownspace> AlexA: I always find it amusing that the French run out of numbers at 60!

[20:52] #knownspace> Hippy: I was on one forum where someone pointed out that 'en leofan' and 'twaalf' were just 'one left' and 'two left' and therefore claimed that the number system had always been decimal and not duodecimal

[20:52] #knownspace> Hippy: . . .but I doubted it

[20:52] #knownspace> Jim: bye

[20:52] #knownspace> UncleNasty: .ety eleven

[20:52] #knownspace> Brennan: "O.E. endleofan, lit. 'one left' (over ten), from P.Gmc. *ainlif- (cf. Goth. ain-lif), a compound of *ain 'one' + PIE *leikw- 'leave, remain' (cf. Gk. leipein 'to leave behind;' see relinquish)." - http://etymonline.com/?term=eleven

[20:52] #knownspace> Tanada: Yeah, blame Babylonia for the switch from a 5 day week to a seven day week too, they did it right before Abraham moved to Palestine and our calander derives from him.

[20:52] #knownspace> UncleNasty: .ety twelve

[20:52] #knownspace> Brennan: "O.E. twelf, lit. 'two left' (over ten), from P.Gmc. *twa-lif-, a compound of the root of two + *lif-, root of the verb leave (see eleven)." - http://etymonline.com/?term=twelve

[20:53] #knownspace> UncleNasty: .ety dozen

[20:53] #knownspace> Brennan: "c.1300, from O.Fr. dozeine 'a dozen,' from douze 'twelve,' from L. duodecim, from duo 'two' + decem 'ten.' The O.Fr. fem. suffix -aine is characteristically added to cardinals to form collectives in a precise sense ('exactly 12,' not 'about 12')." - http://etymonline.com/?term=dozen

[20:53] #knownspace> Hippy: I stand corrected, Brennan

[20:53] #knownspace> AlexA: Brennan is pretty smart

[20:53] #knownspace> UncleNasty: lol

[20:53] #knownspace> UncleNasty: I am so buzzed he's workin

[20:54] #knownspace> AlexA: Can anyone command him or just you UncleNasty

[20:54] #knownspace> UncleNasty: anyone can

[20:54] #knownspace> Dan: Yeah, how does one convert from a 1.73 hour product run into bags of product per minute? Takes me two or three steps on a calculator after getting a base measurement on a stopwatch. But I'd be open to a simple math solution if there weren't so many variables in the number of bags per minute.

[20:54] #knownspace> UncleNasty: .wik does a wikipedia search, .g does a google search

[20:54] #knownspace> AlexA: What's the syntax?

[20:54] #knownspace> UncleNasty: sec - I have a link

[20:54] #knownspace> UncleNasty: he's a modified phenny bot - here's the base commands: http://inamidst.com/phenny/

[20:55] #knownspace> UncleNasty: there's also a .biblio command I added to search the bibliography on larryniven.org, but the database is down on the site, so it's not workin :(

[20:55] #knownspace> Dan: Syntax? $5 in town and $3 in the county. State syntax is usually $2.

[20:55] #knownspace> UncleNasty: Brennan: "C'est la guerre!"?

[20:55] #knownspace> Brennan: UncleNasty: "It's War!" (fr to en, translate.google.com)

[20:55] #knownspace> Tanada: I like the Mayan calendar best, 20 days per month based on the Venusian orbital harmoinies

[20:56] #knownspace> UncleNasty: .g phenny

[20:56] #knownspace> Brennan: UncleNasty: http://inamidst.com/phenny/

[20:56] #knownspace> AlexA: I was about to ask if he had access to full text of Niven works

[20:57] #knownspace> AlexA: Would put Lensman out of a job :)

[20:57] #knownspace> UncleNasty: no full text search, but I've been trying to figure out how to do that without being vastly illegal

[20:57] #knownspace> AlexA: Use amazon search inside?

[20:57] #knownspace> Dan: Uncle, without access to an electronic copy of the text, you can't do that at all.

[20:58] #knownspace> UncleNasty: it's not the access, which is easy enough given the plethora of places that information can be acquired, it's the legality of it

[20:58] #knownspace> AlexA: Of course Google are busy scanning books so youay be able to use their service soon

[20:59] #knownspace> UncleNasty: the amazon thing may work if I can strip all the dross

[20:59] #knownspace> Lensman: Dan: Well, it would help if you had a way to convert from decimal fractions of an hour into minutes, and vice-versa. I've seen charts for that, but that might not be handy to use. Sounds like what you need is a calculator with time functions.

[21:00] #knownspace> AlexA: Doesn't amazon result return a picture, not text though?

[21:00] #knownspace> Tanada: Whats wrong with 1.73*60??

[21:00] #knownspace> Lensman: I have copies of most of Niven's novels and collections in electronic form. Downloaded from illegal posts to the Internet. I'd never post them myself, but I'm not going to deprive myself of the tools, either, especially when I *have* paid for legal copies.

[21:00] #knownspace> AlexA: Beat me to it Tanada

[21:02] #knownspace> AlexA: UncleNasty: An ability to get quotes from project guttenburg would be cool meanwhile

[21:02] #knownspace> UncleNasty: LOL

[21:03] #knownspace> AlexA: Brennan: .wik Blakes7 afterlife

[21:04] #knownspace> UncleNasty: AlexA: no need for Brennan:

[21:04] #knownspace> UncleNasty: .wik Blakes 7

[21:04] #knownspace> Brennan: "Blake's 7 is a British science fiction television series made by the BBC for its BBC 1 channel." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blakes_7

[21:06] Merlin_McCarley_ has joined #knownspace

[21:07] #knownspace> Tanada: hi Merlin, again

[21:07] #knownspace> Dan: Lens, I'm stuck doing the conversions with a stopwatch and calculator. So 1.73 hours is somewhat more than an hour and 40 minutes and somewhat less than one and three quarters of an hour, and at either 2, 3, or 4 bags of product per minute depending on the speed of the assembly line, the math is not hard, even if it isn't eligant.

[21:07] #knownspace> AlexA: Hmm Afterlife is burried at the bottom there

[21:08] #knownspace> UncleNasty: .calc 1.73 * 60 * 4

[21:08] #knownspace> Brennan: 1.73 * 60 * 4 = 415.2

[21:08] #knownspace> Tanada: I still think Brennan made one fundamental mistake

[21:09] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, Tan suggested 1.73*60, altho I guess it would actually be (# of bags of product in 1 minute) * 60 * 1.73

[21:09] #knownspace> UncleNasty: yup - should work

[21:10] #knownspace> Lensman: Dan: But there can't be that many possibilities. So a faster solution would be to print off all possible solutions, yes using Excel, then fold up the chart and stick it in your pocket.

[21:11] #knownspace> Dan: Yes Uncle, but I can't carry Brennan to work. (grin) So I still have to make do with a stopwatch to decude the # of bags per minute and then a calculator to find out the number of empty bags I need to stock up on the machine for each run of product.

[21:11] #knownspace> UncleNasty: Dan: you said you had a calculator? or do you have to do the math in your head?

[21:11] #knownspace> AlexA: UncleNasty: How about giving Brennan ability to query Wolfram Alpha?

[21:12] #knownspace> UncleNasty: AlexA: i have been considering this

[21:12] #knownspace> UncleNasty: the module was really easy to write

[21:12] #knownspace> UncleNasty: the hard part is determining good response from html dross

[21:12] #knownspace> AlexA: Though I have been underwhelmed with WA so far

[21:12] #knownspace> Lensman: "WA"?

[21:13] #knownspace> AlexA: Wolfram Alpha

[21:13] #knownspace> Lensman: What is Wolfram Alpha?

[21:13] #knownspace> AlexA: .win wolfram alpha

[21:13] #knownspace> UncleNasty: the problem is that most of what it returns is links to more data and it's very verbose

[21:13] #knownspace> UncleNasty: almost AlexA

[21:13] #knownspace> AlexA: .wik wolfram alpha

[21:13] #knownspace> Brennan: "Wolfram|Alpha (also written as WolframAlpha and Wolfram Alpha) is an answer engine developed by Wolfram Research." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfram_alpha

[21:14] #knownspace> AlexA: Horray

[21:14] #knownspace> UncleNasty: lol gratz

[21:14] #knownspace> Dan: What I normally do is divide the planned number of bags of product + a 20% finagle factor to account for over-runs. It's the human factor of how long we'll over-run a product according to the assembly line operator's habits that force me to have to use maths to figure out how many bags to stock ber product run.

[21:14] #knownspace> AlexA: Some of the Easter eggs are fun

[21:15] #knownspace> AlexA: Try "are you skynet"

[21:15] #knownspace> UncleNasty: well Dan, why not just go by 1 significant decimal and round up?

[21:15] #knownspace> UncleNasty: that way you're just doing your 6 times table

[21:16] #knownspace> UncleNasty: and you have your finagle factor in the roundup

[21:16] #knownspace> AlexA: WA gives a nice graph for both swine flu cases and deaths vs time

[21:17] #knownspace> Lensman: Dan: Well it obviously depends on what tools you're willing to use. A programmable calculator would allow you to enter as many or few variables as you like to get a solution. And as I said, a printed chart should eliminate the need to use a caldulator altogether.

[21:17] #knownspace> UncleNasty: so instead of 1.73 hours, it 60 minutes plus 48

[21:17] #knownspace> AlexA: But I can't work out how to get deaths / cases vs time

[21:17] #knownspace> Lensman: You could include the "fudge factor" in a precalculated formula, either with the programmable calculator or the spreadheet chart.

[21:18] #knownspace> Dan: Oops! I left out parts of that last statement. It should have been "calculate my machine's share of the scheduled number of bags, then add a 20% finagle factor to approximate the requested total plus the amount of over-run that each of the Line Operators usually exceed the planned number by."

[21:18] #knownspace> Lensman: Is that variable by the individual Operator, or is that a fixed fudge factor?

[21:19] #knownspace> AlexA: A precalculated table seems the way to go

[21:19] #knownspace> Dan: Lens, the tools I'm allowed to use are a stopwatch, a $2 calculator, an ink pen, some sheets of paper, and my wits. And I have to provide all those tools out of my own pocket change.

[21:20] #knownspace> Lensman: The real question is: How many variables do you have to deal with each time? If it's only 2 variables, a printed chart will work. If it's more than two, the quickest solution would be to use a programmable calculator.

[21:20] #knownspace> Dan: That's a variable by Line operator and each of their habits, as observed over time.

[21:21] #knownspace> Dan: Some Line Operators stick close to the scheduled number of bags, and others wildly overshoot the scheduled number.

[21:22] #knownspace> Lensman: Well then it sounds like you have three variables: (1) hours (2) bags per hour (3) operator efficiency. So then you'd need one chart for each operator, which is not so elegent. It would have to be a booklet or a bunch of charts bound together somehow.

[21:23] #knownspace> Lensman: Or if the only variables in bags/hour is 1,2,3,4, then you need four charts.

[21:23] #knownspace> Dan: I agree, Lens. But there are so many people doing the jobs that I depend upon that I'd have to have a set of charts about the size of a phone directory to cover all the possibilities.

[21:24] #knownspace> Lensman: Well if you have to buy your own tools, then I guess the question is just what is it worth to you to get a faster solution? I take it you don't have a programmable calculator. Might it be worth it to buy one, just for the time saved and/or the convenience?

[21:24] #knownspace> Dan: In fact, I'm one of the few people at the factory who has found a use for Algebra after High School.

[21:25] #knownspace> UncleNasty: AlexA: you've killed me - my wife caught me reading Wolfram Alpha API docs and is gonna kill me

[21:25] #knownspace> Lensman: But how many actual different values are there for those different Operators? How accurate do your numbers need to be? If you need accuracy, then the programmable calculator is the way to go.

[21:29] #knownspace> Lensman: Here's a programmable for $9.44, probably plus shipping:

[21:29] #knownspace> Lensman: http://www.antonline.com/p_FX-260SOLAR-SAIH-NX_172648.htm

[21:30] #knownspace> Lensman: I think I've used algebra maybe once or twice in real life.

[21:31] #knownspace> Lensman: Anyway, Dan, sorry if I can't give you the solution you're looking for.

[21:32] #knownspace> Dan: I thank you for the suggestions, Lensman, but the fiberglass dust in the air would kill a quality calculator about once a year. It took me 25 years to find a brand of pocket watch that could tand up to the dust. I have to wear a dust mask myself, for some products and some jobs. Silicosis is no jke in a fiberglass insulation factory.

[21:32] #knownspace> AlexA: UncleNasty: Blame me if that helps :)

[21:32] #knownspace> UncleNasty: lol

[21:33] #knownspace> Lensman: Ick!

[21:34] #knownspace> AlexA: Another thought for you UncleNasty: what if something like brennan sat on Twitter you could query it via Tweets?

[21:34] #knownspace> UncleNasty: we use armored scanners in the warehouses... they still manage to break about 4 a week

[21:35] #knownspace> UncleNasty: AlexA: it has interfaces to a lot of comms - i think twitter was in there

[21:37] #knownspace> Dan: And to clarify matters, I only do these math problems in order to look like the Insulation Industry's very own version of Mr. Scott. It makes my job a lot easier, but few other people take the time to do the math.

[21:38] AlexA_ has joined #knownspace

[21:38] #knownspace> UncleNasty: Damnit Euan's DB server si still down

[21:38] #knownspace> UncleNasty: is*

[21:39] #knownspace> Lensman: Hmmm, just now checked my e-mail inbox and noticed a message from Larry saying "It still doesn't work", which I take it means he tried to access the chat room and couldn't.

[21:39] #knownspace> Dan: I've been known to make co-workers jaws drop in amazement by having exactly the right number of bag up on the machine for a product run, rather than having several hundred bags to take down or beeding to put more bags up at the last minute while the line is waiting for the line operator to get off his lazy butt and make a product change.

[21:40] #knownspace> Dan: beeding=needing

[21:41] #knownspace> Dan: I'm too tired to gripe about my typos any more tonight.

[21:41] #knownspace> Dan: :)

[21:41] #knownspace> Lensman: I think most of us can parse that typo, Dan. :)

[21:41] #knownspace> AlexA: We've got thunderstorm here. I think that last dropout was related

[21:42] #knownspace> AlexA: Don't worry I'm on iPod via wireless so shouldn't get zapped

[21:43] #knownspace> UncleNasty: Dan: you should get one of these http://www.amazon.com/Pocket-Ref-Thomas-J-Glover/dp/1885071000

[21:43] #knownspace> AlexA: Shame about Larry

[21:44] #knownspace> Dan: And thanks, to all of you. I guess I needed to gripe about the lack of predictability in my job. I'm sorry that I can't put more of your solutions to use because of all the variables I have to deal with. But that chart of the basic, no screw-ups runtimes and bags per minute *is* going to be made. That was a great idea!

[21:44] #knownspace> Lensman: Surely every geek has one? I keep in in my 'puter credenza. Not sure that's going to help Dan with his calculations, tho...

[21:45] #knownspace> Dan: As long as I can write up a chart in HTML code to print out, I've got it covered! And you all helped me see it, too.

[21:45] #knownspace> Lensman: Glad to be of assistance.

[21:46] #knownspace> AlexA: If you had an iPod touch you could load loads of tAbles via email or AirSharing

[21:46] #knownspace> Lensman: Sometimes it just helps to talk out a problem; "Two heads are better than one" and all that. Or sometimes I see a solution just from being forced to express a problem coherently, in words.

[21:46] #knownspace> UncleNasty: trying to find mine - I wouldn't be surprised if there's a little table in there for "production run estimation"

[21:47] #knownspace> AlexA: It's pretty well sealled

[21:48] #knownspace> UncleNasty: ooh page 331... conveyor capacities...

[21:48] #knownspace> Dan: I have freaked out some of the Management types as well. By having a worksheet or chart written up as a web page rather than the Excell Spreadsheat that they're used to using themselves.

[21:50] #knownspace> AlexA: .g air sharing

[21:50] #knownspace> Brennan: AlexA: http://www.avatron.com/products/

[21:50] #knownspace> Lensman: Don't see anything under "production"... I've found "Weights of materials" (p. 390) to be the most useful. I used to use metric conversions, but these days I just do that online.

[21:51] #knownspace> Dan: I like Excell for being able to do real-time calculations once you have a template written. That came in handy when I was a ack-up for the Quality Control inspector. But out there on the factory floor, things havent changed much from the days when an abacus was a state-of-the-art computer.

[21:51] #knownspace> UncleNasty: Lensman: it's in the mill section

[21:53] #knownspace> FlyingDragon: Lots of people still here! Hello!

[21:53] #knownspace> Dan: Welcome back, Carol.

[21:53] #knownspace> FlyingDragon: Hi!

[21:53] #knownspace> Lensman: Hi Carol!

[21:53] #knownspace> UncleNasty: wb Carol!

[21:53] #knownspace> Dan: OK, shes back, no more boring math crap from me!

[21:53] #knownspace> FlyingDragon: "Land of the Lost" was a bit like slapstick comedy.

[21:53] #knownspace> FlyingDragon: LOL!

[21:54] #knownspace> FlyingDragon: Kind of a stoner immature movie, but fun.

[21:54] #knownspace> AlexA: That's what io9 review said

[21:54] #knownspace> FlyingDragon: Certainly other women grace your presence?

[21:54] #knownspace> Dan: Carol, I was afraid that the movie would be that way.

[21:54] #knownspace> Lensman: Just noticed Larry sent me a message saying he couldn't access the chat room. I forwarded his message to the webweavers' forum, but he didn't give any details. When I signed in via the Java chat today, I had to wait a minute or so before it signed me in. I wonder if he also had a delay and didn't wait.

[21:55] #knownspace> Lensman: Glad you liked it Carol.

[21:55] #knownspace> FlyingDragon: I'm glad they got rid of the whiney girl, but the over all intellegence of the band of three remained fairly constant, since they turned Marshall into a.... dumb luck kind of guy.

[21:55] #knownspace> FlyingDragon: Larry would get impatient.

[21:56] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, I myself tried to access via ChatZilla today but couldn't figure out how to configure it. So I'm clearly not the best person to help him find an alternative.

[21:57] #knownspace> AlexA: I get a significant delay joining via Colloquy so its not just the Java client

[21:57] #knownspace> Lensman: Oh, so perhaps it was a server delay and not a Java script delay?

[21:57] #knownspace> FlyingDragon: I didn't have any problem joining the room by way of Trillain.

[21:57] #knownspace> AlexA: Another chat I'm in elsewhere is pretty instant

[21:58] #knownspace> Lensman: What is "Colloquy"?

[21:58] #knownspace> Dan: Group meeting.

[21:58] #knownspace> Dan: Time for Graham Norton on BBC America!

[21:58] #knownspace> AlexA: Irc client for Apples

[21:59] #knownspace> AlexA: Macs and iPod/iPhone

[21:59] #knownspace> AlexA: .g colloquy

[21:59] #knownspace> Brennan: AlexA: http://colloquy.info/

[22:00] #knownspace> AlexA: Thanks Brennan :)

[22:01] #knownspace> FlyingDragon: Ah. You've been getting lessons on how to talk to Brennan?

[22:01] #knownspace> UncleNasty: I'm gonna have to get him to respond to thank yous now ;)

[22:01] #knownspace> Lensman: Carol, you'll likely be interested to know that Ed said earlier that Louis Wu will figure in the 4th "...of Worlds" novel.

[22:01] #knownspace> FlyingDragon: Cool.

[22:01] #knownspace> AlexA: I now have yellow belt in brennan-fu

[22:01] #knownspace> FlyingDragon: 2 both of you, neat things.

[22:02] #knownspace> UncleNasty: damned biblio page is down on the website, so his key feature is out of action

[22:02] #knownspace> UncleNasty: <sob>

[22:02] #knownspace> AlexA: Mix in a bit of Lisa UncleNasty :)

[22:03] #knownspace> Lensman: Ed also said that there will be a Pak protector as a major character in /Destroyer of Worlds/.

[22:03] #knownspace> UncleNasty: I've been looking for an old vax script I used to have that had a marvin the paranoid android chatbot

[22:04] #knownspace> Lensman: So, how do you feel about now have yellow belt in brennan-fu?

[22:04] #knownspace> AlexA: How about querying Ks timeline at larryniven.org?

[22:04] #knownspace> UncleNasty: heh

[22:04] #knownspace> UncleNasty: depends on what I can extract from the html

[22:05] #knownspace> AlexA: Or even the ln stories that are hosted there?

[22:05] #knownspace> UncleNasty: the biblio is pretty easy as I'm just automating the search from the web page and extracting the information from the html table it returns

[22:05] #knownspace> Lensman: Tell me more about marvin the paranoid android chatbot.

[22:05] #knownspace> FlyingDragon: "Land of the Lost " has a cameo by Leonard Nimoy!

[22:05] #knownspace> Lensman: Oh, what is Nimoy's role?

[22:05] #knownspace> AlexA: It has a pain in all the diodes on the left side

[22:05] #knownspace> UncleNasty: oh - I watched "Up" the other day - that was a lot better then I was expecting

[22:06] #knownspace> Lensman: The first million years were the worst. Then it went downhill from there.

[22:06] #knownspace> Marvin: I suppose you ought to know I'm feeling very depressed.

[22:06] #knownspace> FlyingDragon: He only has a couple of sentences. The Zarn.

[22:06] #knownspace> Lensman: I have a brain the size of a planet, and you want me to estimate the bags used per hour on an assembly line.

[22:07] #knownspace> AlexA: Where are you Marvin?

[22:07] #knownspace> AlexA: Very good Lensman

[22:07] #knownspace> FlyingDragon: I heard Up was good. Neil, you really feeling bad?

[22:07] #knownspace> Lensman: Carol: Sorry, I don't know enuff about LOTL to understand. The Zarn is what, an alien?

[22:07] #knownspace> UncleNasty: lol no that was a marvin the paranoid android quote

[22:07] #knownspace> AlexA: Brb

[22:08] #knownspace> UncleNasty: back in a min - the dog is looking pensive

[22:08] #knownspace> UncleNasty: .dict pensive

[22:08] #knownspace> Brennan: pensive - 1. deeply thoughtful

[22:08] #knownspace> FlyingDragon: :-)

[22:08] #knownspace> Lensman: LOL but I did get the HHGTTG references!

[22:08] #knownspace> FlyingDragon: Pegusus is having a sale : http://www.pegasuspublishing.com/

[22:08] #knownspace> UncleNasty: brb

[22:08] #knownspace> FlyingDragon: .dict filk

[22:08] #knownspace> Brennan: FlyingDragon: Sorry, no definition found.

[22:08] #knownspace> FlyingDragon: Not very smart, is he?

[22:08] #knownspace> UncleNasty: :-O

[22:09] #knownspace> UncleNasty: .wik filk

[22:09] #knownspace> Brennan: "Filk is a musical culture, genre, and community tied to science fiction/fantasy fandom." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filk

[22:09] #knownspace> FlyingDragon: Not fannish.

[22:09] #knownspace> FlyingDragon: :-)

[22:09] #knownspace> UncleNasty: back in a min

[22:09] #knownspace> FlyingDragon: bye

[22:10] #knownspace> AlexA: .wik zarn

[22:10] #knownspace> Brennan: "Land of the Lost was a 1974–1976 TV series relating the adventures of the Marshall family (including Will and Holly and their father, later replaced by their uncle)." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_of_the_Lost_(1974_TV_series)_characters_and_species

[22:13] #knownspace> Lensman: "The Zarn" is listed as a character in Wiki's LOTL article, but is not described.

[22:13] #knownspace> FlyingDragon: Zarn is a sleestack

[22:14] #knownspace> FlyingDragon: You really want spoilers?????

[22:14] #knownspace> AlexA: Invisible alien according to above link

[22:14] #knownspace> AlexA: Different in movie

[22:15] #knownspace> FlyingDragon: Okay, we never actually SEE him, true.

[22:15] #knownspace> Lensman: "Land of the Lost details the adventures of the Marshall family (father Rick, his son Will, and younger daughter Holly) who are trapped in an alternate universe inhabited by dinosaurs, a primate-type people called Pakuni, and aggressive, humanoid/lizard creatures called Sleestak. The episode storylines focus on the family's efforts to survive and find a way back to their own world, but the exploration of the exotic features of the Land

[22:16] #knownspace> AlexA: Scroll down to 1.6 The Zarn

[22:16] #knownspace> Lensman: I don't care about spoilers. I would like to see the LOTL TV episodes that Larry wrote or contributed to, but I'm not going to see the movie.

[22:18] #knownspace> FlyingDragon: Okay, spoilers: Enik is the good sleestack from an advanced evolution in the TV show, and in the movie, he is at first shown to be the good guy, saying the bad guy is The Zarn, but it turns out that Enik is the bad guy, and the Zarn is the good guy trying to keep him from doing all the bad things Enik said The Zarn was going to do.

[22:18] #knownspace> AlexA: Use Brennan's link Lensman

[22:18] #knownspace> UncleNasty: away

[22:18] #knownspace> FlyingDragon: We see a hologram of The Zarn, and his dead body.

[22:19] #knownspace> UncleNasty: damnit

[22:19] #knownspace> AlexA: Bye UncleNasty

[22:19] #knownspace> UncleNasty: aright all - i gotta bail - ttfn

[22:21] #knownspace> Lensman: Thanx Alex.

[22:22] #knownspace> Lensman: So I guess we're down to 3 active fen here: Me, Carol and Alex?

[22:22] #knownspace> AlexA: I should be sleeping

[22:23] #knownspace> AlexA: .tim BST

[22:24] #knownspace> AlexA: .tim GMT

[22:24] #knownspace> Lensman: I think I'm going to call it a night also.

[22:24] #knownspace> FlyingDragon: I didn't see the time come up. That doens't work?

[22:25] #knownspace> FlyingDragon: Okay.... g'night.

[22:25] #knownspace> Lensman: Bye all!

[22:26] #knownspace> AlexA: .t BST

[22:26] #knownspace> Brennan: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 03:26:04 BST

[22:26] #knownspace> FlyingDragon: There you go!

[22:26] #knownspace> AlexA: Night all

[22:26] #knownspace> FlyingDragon: Night to you too.

[22:27] #knownspace> AlexA: Sorry you missed Ed

[22:27] #knownspace> AlexA: Hopefully the log will be up soon

[22:27] #knownspace> FlyingDragon: Ah, well. I worked making fences from a friend, then we all did lunch.

[22:27] #knownspace> FlyingDragon: I'm a Cow-poke now!

[22:28] #knownspace> FlyingDragon: I'm achy all over, and I didn't work THAT hard!

[22:28] #knownspace> AlexA: Ah

[22:28] #knownspace> FlyingDragon: Mostly I just held the posts while the guys carted the cement around. Leveled them, over and over and over.

[22:28] #knownspace> FlyingDragon: Carried posts too. But it was hot and sunny.

[22:29] #knownspace> AlexA: Flew kites with kids today. Which was more energetic than it sounds

[22:29] #knownspace> FlyingDragon: :-) You have to RUN!

[22:30] #knownspace> AlexA: Wind was pretty constant. So once laughed not to bad

[22:31] #knownspace> AlexA: Anyway time for bed. See you here or on lnl

[22:31] #knownspace> FlyingDragon: SOunds like good kite weather.

[22:31] #knownspace> FlyingDragon: Night.

[22:31] #knownspace> AlexA: Bye

[22:51] #knownspace> FlyingDragon: .wiki George Mason

[22:52] #knownspace> FlyingDragon: .wik George Mason

[22:52] #knownspace> Brennan: "George Mason IV (December 11, 1725 – October 7, 1792) was an American patriot, statesman, and delegate from Virginia to the U.S. Constitutional Convention." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Mason