November | THE UNIVERSE OF LARRY NIVEN

Saturday, 6 November, 2010 - 12:00am


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	<span class='c-b'>[05:46] #knownspace></span> Akiraa: <span class='c-m'>Have people considered using a hydrogen bomb to blask up to a few km of the crust of solar system bodies (like Europa)?
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	<span class='c-b'>[05:52] #knownspace></span> Akiraa: <span class='c-m'>s/blask/blast/
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	<span class='c-b'>[14:43] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>'sup?
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	<span class='c-b'>[14:44] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>yo
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[14:44] #knownspace></span> SolBelter: <span class='c-m'>hi NickE
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[14:44] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>Hi Sol
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[14:45] #knownspace></span> SolBelter: <span class='c-m'>i'm just in for a moment before eating
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[14:45] #knownspace></span> SolBelter: <span class='c-m'>looking for my handmeal :)
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[14:45] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>ah, just eaten
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[14:45] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>heh
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[14:45] #knownspace></span> SolBelter: <span class='c-m'>ok,back laterrrr...
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	<span class='c-b'>[14:45] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>k
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	<span class='c-b'>[15:05] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>evenin'
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	<span class='c-b'>[15:07] #knownspace></span> Larry: <span class='c-m'>Hello!
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:08] #knownspace></span> Larry: <span class='c-m'>anyone here? I mark myself as eight minutes late.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:09] #knownspace></span> dmac44: <span class='c-m'>A few people, discussion hasn't started yet.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:10] #knownspace></span> dmac44: <span class='c-m'>Larry, I recall you were working on a project with Bedford called Wokworld. Can you tell us about that?
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:12] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>Hi LArry
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:12] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>Bowl of Heaven
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:12] #knownspace></span> dmac44: <span class='c-m'>my mistake, Bowl of Heaven.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:13] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>Well, that was a name suggested here :-)
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:14] #knownspace></span> Larry: <span class='c-m'>Wokworld is now named The Bowl of Heaven and has become two books. It's in motion, but slow. Second book: <span class='c-m'>Shipstar.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:15] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>Oh cool. Glad it hasn't stalled
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:15] #knownspace></span> Larry: <span class='c-m'>Greg Benford fizzes with ideas. It's two books because it grew too crowded.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:15] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>really looking forward to this
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:16] #knownspace></span> dmac44: <span class='c-m'>Shipstar sounds like moving the Bowl of Heaven by manipulating the central star
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:17] #knownspace></span> Larry: <span class='c-m'>Yes. The Bowl has been in motion for...a long time.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:18] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>intriguing
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:20] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>That was quite a while back that this originally came up
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:20] #knownspace></span> Lensman: <span class='c-m'>Hi Larry! Sorry, I was multi-tasking.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:20] #knownspace></span> Lensman: <span class='c-m'>I
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:21] #knownspace></span> Lensman: <span class='c-m'>I'm not going to be able to stay longer than a few minutes. My movie buff/home theatre group, the Laser Rangers, is having its Thanksgiving dinner this evening and I need to start setting the table for that.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:22] #knownspace></span> dmac44: <span class='c-m'>Larry, are you also still planning to do a sequel to Burning Tower?
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:22] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>I assume The Bowl is set in a standalone universe?
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:24] #knownspace></span> Lensman: <span class='c-m'>I'm pretty sure Larry wrote something about flaring the sun to turn the Ringworld into a starship, albeit a slowly accelerating one. Was that in "Bigger than Worlds" ?
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:24] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>I believe so
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:25] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>The actual solution of cousre was somewhat faster :-)
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:25] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>Larry, any rough idea when Bowl might be ready?
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:25] #knownspace></span> dmac44: <span class='c-m'>very low acceleration or the ringworld wouldn't stay gravationally connected to its sun.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:26] #knownspace></span> Lensman: <span class='c-m'>@Nick LOL! Yeah, by some several orders of magnitude.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:26] #knownspace></span> Lensman: <span class='c-m'>But it did leave the sun behind.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:26] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>But evena tiny aceleration can build up over time
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:27] #knownspace></span> dmac44: <span class='c-m'>i was speaking of flaring the sun for acceleration
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:27] #knownspace></span> Lensman: <span class='c-m'>Speaking of the Ringworld's sun... it irks me that we don't have a name for it.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:27] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>so does this mean that The Bowl is moving relativistically?
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:27] #knownspace></span> dmac44: <span class='c-m'>Lens: <span class='c-m'>just ask a City Builder.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:27] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>if it's been going a long time and uses something similar to the Ring/sun method/
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	<span class='c-b'>[15:28] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>"The Sun"
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:28] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>Hi Xander
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:28] #knownspace></span> Lensman: <span class='c-m'>dmac: <span class='c-m'>I'd love to!
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:28] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>HI all. Just got in from a bitterly fought Frankfort Youth Football game.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:28] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>did you win
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:28] #knownspace></span> Lensman: <span class='c-m'>Hearth's ex-sun has two names; maybe they'll loan us one of theirs?
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:28] #knownspace></span> Lensman: <span class='c-m'>Well, "Red Star" doesn't fit.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:29] #knownspace></span> dmac44: <span class='c-m'>Lens: <span class='c-m'>Giver-of-Life and ?
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:29] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>har... no, my gf's son lost.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:29] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>Good evening all
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:29] #knownspace></span> Lensman: <span class='c-m'>Bitterly fought... "At the end, it was hand-to-hand."
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:29] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>.t
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:29] #knownspace></span> Outsider: <span class='c-m'>Sat, 06 Nov 2010 19:29:39 GMT
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:29] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>ah well
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:29] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>if you think about it, all football is hand to hand
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:29] #knownspace></span> Lensman: <span class='c-m'>Giver-of-Life and, as I said, "Red Star", if I recall correctly.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:30] #knownspace></span> Lensman: <span class='c-m'>@Sean: <span class='c-m'>Whizz...
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:30] #knownspace></span> dmac44: <span class='c-m'>Thanks, I didn't recall Red Star.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:30] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>brb
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:30] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>.weather egdm
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:30] #knownspace></span> Outsider: <span class='c-m'>Cloudy, 7℃, 1013mb, Light air 1kt (↑) - EGDM 18:50, 1850Z
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	<span class='c-b'>[15:32] #knownspace></span> SolBelter: <span class='c-m'>re, NickE, hi Lensman, dmac, and Larry
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:32] #knownspace></span> Lensman: <span class='c-m'>dmac: <span class='c-m'>FOW hardcover p. 247
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:32] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>Recently finished "Juggler". I was a bit confused as what the Ousiders' secret was.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:33] #knownspace></span> Lensman: <span class='c-m'>Hi SolBelter
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:33] #knownspace></span> Larry: <span class='c-m'>sorry all, got distracted.
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	<span class='c-b'>[15:33] #knownspace></span> EML: <span class='c-m'>Afternoon, everyone
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:33] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>Are there meant to be many more or less than previuosly though - passage wasn't clear to me
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:34] #knownspace></span> Larry: <span class='c-m'>The Outsiders' secret is that they are few, too few to be as powerful as they seem.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:34] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>Hi Ed
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:34] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>ah, Larry and Ed at the same time yet again. I feel privileged.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:34] #knownspace></span> Larry: <span class='c-m'>Hi, Ed.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:34] #knownspace></span> EML: <span class='c-m'>Greetings.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:34] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>Larry: <span class='c-m'>Thanks!
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:35] #knownspace></span> Lensman: <span class='c-m'>Alex: <span class='c-m'>Siggy thinks the Outsiders are really not the galaxy-spanning race which has sold the secret of hyperdrive to hundreds of different races thruout the galaxy. He thinks they are much younger and are not so widely spread, simply because Ship #14 has a low number. He's wrong, of course; see the epilogue of /A Gift from Earth/.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:36] #knownspace></span> Larry: <span class='c-m'>I got distracted because I'm gearing up for "Eutopiales", a literary convention in Nantes, France.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:36] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>Lensman: <span class='c-m'>Ok remind me of the epilogue
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:36] #knownspace></span> EML: <span class='c-m'>Lensman: <span class='c-m'>The fact that the Outsiders CAN be blackmailed also supports Sigmund's theory.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:36] #knownspace></span> Lensman: <span class='c-m'>Well of course, Larry as the creator of the KS universe has the right to declare previous statements null and void.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:36] #knownspace></span> dmac44: <span class='c-m'>but they could still be spread very, very thinly.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:37] #knownspace></span> EML: <span class='c-m'>Nothing in Juggler expresses an opinion (IIRC) about how widespread Outsiders are, only how much power they feel safe in trying to exert.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:37] #knownspace></span> Lensman: <span class='c-m'>Alex: <span class='c-m'>I don't really have time for that. You can read the Outsider entry in my Incompleat Known Space Concordance if you like.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:37] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>Aldo the implication seemed to be that Starseads are part of Outsider life-cycle
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:37] #knownspace></span> Lensman: <span class='c-m'>Got to go... hate to miss a fascinating conversation!
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:37] #knownspace></span> Larry: <span class='c-m'>as the hisorian of Known Space, I have the right to become forgetful. Historians look for consistency, and so do I.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:38] #knownspace></span> EML: <span class='c-m'>OUtsiders are few and frail, and dependent on carbon-based life for most of their metals.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:38] #knownspace></span> dmac44: <span class='c-m'>Aren't narrative facts harder to retcon than conversational ones?
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:38] #knownspace></span> SolBelter: <span class='c-m'>seeya Lensman!
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:38] #knownspace></span> EML: <span class='c-m'>Bye, Lens.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:38] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>ttfn
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:38] #knownspace></span> Larry: <span class='c-m'>dmac44: <span class='c-m'>sure.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:38] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>Thanks & bye Lensman
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:39] #knownspace></span> dmac44: <span class='c-m'>See ya Lens.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:40] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>So are the Outsiders playing a form of the "god game" from RW? :)
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:40] #knownspace></span> dmac44: <span class='c-m'>I have a question. Carbon based lifeforms can have psi powers in the KS universe. What about the Outsiders?
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:40] #knownspace></span> EML: <span class='c-m'>Some inconsistencies will creep in, and then one can only take one's pick. IMO, the trailing snippet of Gift from earth conflicts with everything else we know about Outsiders.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:41] #knownspace></span> Larry: <span class='c-m'>I concieved Outsiders to be as alien as possible. Speculation is easy, but even I would be guessing.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:41] #knownspace></span> dmac44: <span class='c-m'>fair enough.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:41] #knownspace></span> EML: <span class='c-m'>I'm unaware of any indication of Outsider psi, and none of the Worlds books assume it.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:42] #knownspace></span> dmac44: <span class='c-m'>I was thinking that psi is an emergent property of mind, and if so, then the Outsiders could have it.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:42] #knownspace></span> dmac44: <span class='c-m'>or at least some form of it.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:42] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>Larry: <span class='c-m'>Leaving them a mystery is part of the fun - lets us speculate :)
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:42] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>one assumes that they must know of it at least - I've always assumed that teh Mass Pointer in Hyperdrive ships is an Outsider bit of tech (though I have no evidence for that)
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:42] #knownspace></span> Larry: <span class='c-m'>EML: <span class='c-m'>Right. I gave telepathy to Kzinti, but otherwise only humans are psychic.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:43] #knownspace></span> dmac44: <span class='c-m'>and Grogs
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:43] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>And Brogs
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:43] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>they could but would it work across such incredibly different species as outsiders and carbon based life
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:43] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>Grogs even
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:43] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>and Dolphins, Thrint
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:43] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>Psi in KS: <span class='c-m'>Slavers, Grogs, Humans & Kzinti
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:44] #knownspace></span> EML: <span class='c-m'>very limited in humans and Kzinti, IIRC.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:44] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>Dolphins
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:44] #knownspace></span> dmac44: <span class='c-m'>I thought the mass pointer required psi to work. If so, then aren't most species who use the mass pointer a little psi capable?
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:44] #knownspace></span> Larry: <span class='c-m'>You guys have caught me out. Yeah, lots of psy in early Niven. It was more nearly respectable then.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:44] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>not widespread
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:45] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>mass detector requires a mind... not psi
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:45] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>As latter two are evolved from food yeast it could be related ( Tnuctipun engineering?)
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:45] #knownspace></span> SolBelter: <span class='c-m'>I noticed that mass indicator in BoWorlds doesn't use a dog's brain anymore...
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:45] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>and of course Bandersnatch are engineered immune to psi
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:45] #knownspace></span> dmac44: <span class='c-m'>SeanS: <span class='c-m'>but what is a mind, protectors have minds but can't use a mass pointer. Ditto computers.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:46] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>Larry: <span class='c-m'>Werent there some experiments by MIT in 60s/70s that suggested psi was real?
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:46] #knownspace></span> EML: <span class='c-m'>Pak can use computers ... they don't see the need. refernece DOW.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:47] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>i dont remember a reference where protectors cant use mass detectors
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:47] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>I assume it's something more to do with teh unconcious. I'd guess an awake protector doesn't have an unoncious as it is processing with full awareness
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:47] #knownspace></span> dmac44: <span class='c-m'>EML: <span class='c-m'>I meant to say that computers can't use a mass pointer just as Protectors acn't use a mass pointer.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:47] #knownspace></span> dmac44: <span class='c-m'>SeanS: <span class='c-m'>Ringworld
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:47] #knownspace></span> EML: <span class='c-m'>In RWC, Louis as a protector says he can't use a mass pointer.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:48] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>SeanS: <span class='c-m'>In "Children" Louis can't use it
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:48] #knownspace></span> dmac44: <span class='c-m'>Ringworld's Children
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:48] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>must of missed it the first time i read it. need to re-read
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:48] #knownspace></span> EML: <span class='c-m'>computers can't use mass pointers, but they can (if they know the territory well) fly through hyperspace blind.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:49] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>I think in th 60s and 70s it was assumed that proof of psi would be a "when" and not "if" question
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:50] #knownspace></span> dmac44: <span class='c-m'>yes, but the question is do mass pointers require mind or psi?
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:50] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>Larry EML: <span class='c-m'>Will we learn any more about Slavers/Tnuctipun in future works?
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:50] #knownspace></span> EML: <span class='c-m'>SolBelter said: <span class='c-m'>I noticed that mass indicator in BoWorlds doesn't use a dog's brain anymore... Huh??? When did one?
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:50] #knownspace></span> EML: <span class='c-m'>Alexa: <span class='c-m'>not in near-term plans.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:51] #knownspace></span> Lensman: <span class='c-m'>Yes, the Outsiders certainly could be spread thinly. That doesn't mean they are not ancient, nor that they don't possess technology which is indistinguishable from magic. Siggy's speculation that they can't get metals on their own because they can't go to a star's inner solar system seems, well, let's say unlikely, given their level of technology. They choose not to use hyperdrive, that...
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:51] #knownspace></span> Lensman: <span class='c-m'>...doesn't mean they can't. Similarly, it seems pretty obvious that they could send a robotic craft to the inner solar system to pick up a few metallic asteroids, even if they don't choose to so long as they have other races to trade with.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:51] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>I'd assume psi potential needed maybe
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:51] #knownspace></span> Larry: <span class='c-m'>Dogs brain: <span class='c-m'>don't recall. Could you be remembering Cordwainer Smith?
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:52] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>EML: <span class='c-m'>Ok thanks
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:52] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>but then a human protector could do it, so thats out#
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:52] #knownspace></span> Lensman: <span class='c-m'>And even aside from that, there are plenty of "wandering planets" far from stars. Asteroids, too, undoubtedly. Surely the Outsiders can get all the metal they want, without that much difficulty.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:52] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>I'd assume so
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:53] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>Asteroids tend to have low gravity = not a problem even for actual Outsiders to work on them
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:53] #knownspace></span> dmac44: <span class='c-m'>As I recall, Tunesmith in RWC had to build a special camera to see dark matter because he couldn't use a mass pointer.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:54] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>(Though they'd need to be in really cold space)
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:54] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>Will Bey's story be continued. "Home" could be interesting considering it's history ;)
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:54] #knownspace></span> SolBelter: <span class='c-m'>At Larry - I'll have to check dogbrain - in earliest KS stories; Cordwainer used a ratbrain at least once
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:54] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>i.e not in teh Goldilocks zone ofa star
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:54] #knownspace></span> dmac44: <span class='c-m'>If you can protect yourself from junk coming at you at the spped of light then I wouldn't think the Outsiders would find a little heat difficult to deal with.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:55] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>no of course not - they use soem kind of fusion source to provide teh light in their own ships and are able to deal with human ships in close proximity
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:56] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>so, getting metals, not an issue I'd say
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:57] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>Larry: <span class='c-m'>Can you say anything about "Anvil"? What is connection, if any, to "Hammer"?
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:57] #knownspace></span> EML: <span class='c-m'>Just wondering ... how did we get into Outsiders today?
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:57] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>As Larry said, they are very alien, so their motivations would be similarly obscure
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:57] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>Heh, not sure, but why not :-)
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:57] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>someone asked about whether they were many or few
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:58] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>EML: <span class='c-m'>I just finished "Juggler" and was a bit confused so asked about them :)
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:58] #knownspace></span> Larry: <span class='c-m'>Anvil: <span class='c-m'>no connection to Lucifer's Hammer. And we've changed the name: <span class='c-m'>"Samael's Forge". Starts in present time.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:58] #knownspace></span> EML: <span class='c-m'>Alexa: <span class='c-m'>opinions differ :-)
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:59] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>Larry: <span class='c-m'>Thanks
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[15:59] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>EML: <span class='c-m'>What was that an answer to - my qu about Bey?
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:00] #knownspace></span> EML: <span class='c-m'>Alexa: <span class='c-m'>sorry, I fell behind. No near-term Bey plans, either.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:00] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>.g Samael
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:00] #knownspace></span> Outsider: <span class='c-m'>AlexA: <span class='c-m'>http://www.samael.info/
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:01] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>.wiki Samael
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:02] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>.w Samael
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:02] #knownspace></span> Outsider: <span class='c-m'>Couldn't get any definitions for Samael.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:02] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>Larry, did you have a rough timeline for Bowl? Think that you may have mentioned it before, but I don't recall
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:03] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>Outsider: <span class='c-m'>At least you didn't ask for a billion Stars :)
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:03] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>heh
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:03] #knownspace></span> SolBelter: <span class='c-m'>...and let me catch up - the name of 5th Worlds book is?
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:04] #knownspace></span> Larry: <span class='c-m'>I have no plans for Beowulf Shaeffer. Sometimes they just pop up.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:04] #knownspace></span> EML: <span class='c-m'>Sol: <span class='c-m'>#5 will be (current working title, anyway) FATE OF WORLDS
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:05] #knownspace></span> SolBelter: <span class='c-m'>thx EML - ut still a working title. Ok to quote that if we say 'working title'?
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:05] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>you can use this link to find a list of commands for the outsider bot. http://inamidst.com/phenny/
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:05] #knownspace></span> EML: <span class='c-m'>I'm okay with mentioning the working title. How about you, Larry?
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:06] #knownspace></span> SolBelter: <span class='c-m'>"Larry andEML discarded 'Pentology of Worlds' as book 5 title" :)
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:06] #knownspace></span> Larry: <span class='c-m'>I don't flinch from naming a working title. I think this one fits the book and the series.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:06] #knownspace></span> SolBelter: <span class='c-m'>thank you both!
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:07] #knownspace></span> EML: <span class='c-m'>da nada
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:07] #knownspace></span> SolBelter: <span class='c-m'>the issue was proper courtesy to authors
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:07] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>SeanS: <span class='c-m'>Thanks
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:07] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>np
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:08] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>.wik Samael
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:08] #knownspace></span> Outsider: <span class='c-m'>"Samael (Hebrew: <span class='c-m'>סמאל‎) (also Sammael, perhaps 'Venom of God') is an important archangel in Talmudic and post-Talmudic lore, a figure who is accuser, seducer and destroyer, and has been regarded as both good and evil." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samael
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:08] #knownspace></span> SolBelter: <span class='c-m'>Sounds like Loik, Coyote, and Trickster are in Samael's family tree
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:09] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>didn't that angel figure in Weaveworld by Clive Barker (at least in part?)
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:09] #knownspace></span> SolBelter: <span class='c-m'>Loki^
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:09] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>(Was it Weaveworld, Carpet World oh blimey I've gone blank ;-)
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:09] #knownspace></span> EML: <span class='c-m'>Sol: <span class='c-m'>Pentagram of Worlds sounds better ;-)
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:10] #knownspace></span> Larry: <span class='c-m'>Last issue of the comic "Ludifer" had the main character as Samael at one point.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:10] #knownspace></span> SolBelter: <span class='c-m'>book six - Exorcist of Worlds
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:11] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>heh
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:11] #knownspace></span> Larry: <span class='c-m'>"Pentagram of Worlds"--ah hell, we'll consider it.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:11] #knownspace></span> dmac44: <span class='c-m'>lol
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:11] #knownspace></span> EML: <span class='c-m'>with Nessus as the, ahem, star?
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:12] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'><groan></span>
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:12] #knownspace></span> Larry: <span class='c-m'>"Exorcist of worlds" doesn't work.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:12] #knownspace></span> SolBelter: <span class='c-m'>I love my Michael Gilbert 'Fleet of Worlds' painting, and to see the Fleet revived after decades is great~!
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:12] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>So Samael = Angel of Death. Fitting
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:13] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>Sol is having troubel staying on today
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:13] #knownspace></span> EML: <span class='c-m'>and when Puppeteers get moving really fast, perhaps the Pentathalon of Worlds.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:13] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>The BBC TV "Horizon" science programme recently covered asteroids
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:13] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>hehe
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:14] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>Actually not a bad ep (the strand has been variable in recent years)
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:14] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>Did you see the latest Deep Impact pics? V interesting shaped cometary nucleus
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:15] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>Apparently small asteroids are more destructive than previously thought - bad as they can't be detected until days out :(
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:15] SolBelter has joined #knownspace
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:15] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>yeah, like a peanut
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:15] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>wb Sol
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:15] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>funky
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:15] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>would guess it would be a good candidate to split
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:15] #knownspace></span> dmac44: <span class='c-m'>yeak, like 2 comets that hit and stuck together.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:15] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>or that :-)
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:15] #knownspace></span> EML: <span class='c-m'>my next solo deals with (among other things) NEOs.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:16] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>oho
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:16] #knownspace></span> EML: <span class='c-m'>and, perhaps, oh-oh.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:16] #knownspace></span> dmac44: <span class='c-m'>eml: <span class='c-m'>in one of your current universes or a new one?
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:16] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>ah ha
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:16] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>:-)
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:16] #knownspace></span> EML: <span class='c-m'>Doug: <span class='c-m'>ENERGIZED is a standalone.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:17] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>i need to go to lexington and pick up the intersteller net books. no decent book store here. hope i remembered the name right. ;)
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:17] #knownspace></span> SolBelter: <span class='c-m'><==looking forward to my delivery of EML's books
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:18] #knownspace></span> SolBelter: <span class='c-m'>at EML - why 2 of yours never paperbacked?
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:18] #knownspace></span> EML: <span class='c-m'>SEan: <span class='c-m'>INterstellarNet books are hard to find in brick-and-mortar stores. Best bet: <span class='c-m'>order from the publisher, who has a twofer deal. See http://www.foxacre.com/cgi-bin/hazel.cgi?action=serve&item=author.html&C..., bottom of the page.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:18] #knownspace></span> SolBelter: <span class='c-m'>or at least not InPrint as pbs...
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:19] #knownspace></span> SolBelter: <span class='c-m'>[not counting InterstellNet ones]
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:19] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>Larry: <span class='c-m'>Didn't you visit JPL recently? Research for "Samael"?
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:19] #knownspace></span> EML: <span class='c-m'>Sol: <span class='c-m'>wishing the postman speedily on his rounds :-)
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:20] #knownspace></span> SolBelter: <span class='c-m'>hand deliveries by secretary, then Amazon for OP hardcovers
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:20] #knownspace></span> EML: <span class='c-m'>Sol "why 2 of yours never paperbacked?" which two? Or are you asking why only TPB?
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:21] #knownspace></span> EML: <span class='c-m'>IIRC, all my solos are available in PB or TPB.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:21] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>EML, will throw that post to the gf... maybe an extra gift for christmas.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:22] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>Did any of you watch "The Walking Dead"? I thought it was brilliant
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:22] #knownspace></span> Larry: <span class='c-m'>AlexA: <span class='c-m'>no. Went to Google for Samael.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:22] #knownspace></span> EML: <span class='c-m'>merry Xmas, Sean.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:22] #knownspace></span> SolBelter: <span class='c-m'>at EML - 'Creative Destruction' and 'Moonstruck' http://www.amazon.com/Edward-M.-Lerner/e/B001IGSZLQ/ref=sr_ntt_srch_lnk_...
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:22] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>we can hope anyway
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:23] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>(on AMC in US, FX in
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:23] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>Uk
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:23] #knownspace></span> Larry: <span class='c-m'>I'm off. Fare ye well all.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:24] #knownspace></span> SolBelter: <span class='c-m'>you too
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:24] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>nice to see Larry
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:24] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>as it were
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:24] #knownspace></span> EML: <span class='c-m'>Sol: <span class='c-m'>Creative Destruction is available in TPB, see: <span class='c-m'>http://www.amazon.com/Creative-Destruction-Edward-M-Lerner/dp/0809557487...
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:24] #knownspace></span> SolBelter: <span class='c-m'>I stand corrected - Moonstruck was pbacked,
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:25] #knownspace></span> SolBelter: <span class='c-m'>...and Creative Dest was TPB'ed
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:25] #knownspace></span> SolBelter: <span class='c-m'>'My mind is going, Dave...I can feel it'
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:25] #knownspace></span> EML: <span class='c-m'>Moonstruck is mostly out of print (tho I'm trying to get another edition out there). Email me if you mighht want to buy one privately.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:26] #knownspace></span> SolBelter: <span class='c-m'>k -thx
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:26] #knownspace></span> EML: <span class='c-m'>I'm kind of surprised no one's asked or commented about Betrayer. Too soon?
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:27] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>that is a birthday gift here that i will receive on the 27th.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:28] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>so next chat, I will be all about betrayer chat.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:28] #knownspace></span> SolBelter: <span class='c-m'>only 1/3rd thru - but I'd said to myself - 'they have to explain why Louis doesnt remember Bey, and what Louis' experiences on Wunderland were.'
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:29] #knownspace></span> SolBelter: <span class='c-m'>both answered :)
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:29] #knownspace></span> SolBelter: <span class='c-m'>i say no more
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:29] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>please no spoilers. ;)
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:29] #knownspace></span> SolBelter: <span class='c-m'>and didnt review how they answered those points
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:30] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>and i thank you
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:31] #knownspace></span> EML: <span class='c-m'>are y'all following the Ringworld 40th anniversary blog series at tor.com?
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:31] #knownspace></span> dmac44: <span class='c-m'>some :)
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:31] #knownspace></span> EML: <span class='c-m'>Those of you not writing it, that is?
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:31] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>i was asked to blog something
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:32] #knownspace></span> SolBelter: <span class='c-m'>So u dont want to know about the chapter where all their characters ever meet at a party? JOKE [stilol scarred by Heinlein Number of the Beast]
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:32] #knownspace></span> SolBelter: <span class='c-m'>I'm fascinated by all the different takes on KSpace at Tor
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:33] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>guess i should check it out.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:34] #knownspace></span> EML: <span class='c-m'>I'd enjoy seeing the series expand to other KS stories.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:34] #knownspace></span> SolBelter: <span class='c-m'>me too!
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:35] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>ed, i would love to see another smoke ring story but larry said no. work on that ;)
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:35] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>indeed
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:35] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>not known space but what the hell
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:35] #knownspace></span> EML: <span class='c-m'>Sean: <span class='c-m'>one more idea for the too-long queue.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:35] #knownspace></span> dmac44: <span class='c-m'>EML: <span class='c-m'>do you think Tor would have any interest in that?
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:36] #knownspace></span> EML: <span class='c-m'>Doug: <span class='c-m'>interest in what? extending the blog series?
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:36] #knownspace></span> dmac44: <span class='c-m'>yes
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:36] #knownspace></span> EML: <span class='c-m'>I can't speak for them, but I'd guess, yes.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:37] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>ringworld is great but i think my favorite knownspace stories are the slower than light ones.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:37] #knownspace></span> dmac44: <span class='c-m'>SeanS: <span class='c-m'>What would be your favorite story then?
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:39] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>protector ranks high. a gift from earth and world of ptavvs. bunch of short stories. the scene in WoP where pluto burns is incredible.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:39] #knownspace></span> dmac44: <span class='c-m'>a gift from earth was my first Niven book.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:39] ronn has joined #knownspace
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:40] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>hi ronn
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:40] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>Hi Ronn
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:40] #knownspace></span> SolBelter: <span class='c-m'>hi ronn
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:40] #knownspace></span> ronn: <span class='c-m'>Hi, all!
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:40] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>brb (need beer to raise a glass to Frank for yesterday :-)
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:40] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>ronn, you missed Larry... he was getting ready for a trip to france
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:40] #knownspace></span> SolBelter: <span class='c-m'>checking Amazon re EML pbs, Moonstruck is OP, but 3 dealers offer 'new' condition...
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:42] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>ronn, your an astronomer right?
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:43] #knownspace></span> SolBelter: <span class='c-m'>ronn might prefer 'astrophysicist' :)) [I work for some in Second Life - MICA group]
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:44] #knownspace></span> ronn: <span class='c-m'>FWIW, the instructions at< http://www.larryniven.net/java/index.shtml></span> still say "There is an official larryniven.org irc chat server located at irc.larryniven.org . . . " rather than "irc.larryniven.org" . . .
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:44] #knownspace></span> SolBelter: <span class='c-m'>but now they look at data, not optical inputs in realtime, for the most part
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:45] #knownspace></span> SolBelter: <span class='c-m'>any preference, ronn?
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:45] #knownspace></span> ronn: <span class='c-m'>I meant, “FWIW, the instructions at< http://www.larryniven.net/java/index.shtml></span> still say "There is an official larryniven.org irc chat server located at irc.larryniven.org . . . " rather than "irc.larryniven.net" . . . ”
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:46] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>yeah, we had to change registrars and the old registrar wouldnt give up .org without money moving their way. I will mention it to mark
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:46] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>i was just looking for a recommendation
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:46] #knownspace></span> EML: <span class='c-m'>someone was not master of his domain?
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:46] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>they wanted too much money
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:47] #knownspace></span> ronn: <span class='c-m'>A preference as to what to be called? As opposed to "as long as you don't call me late for dinner"? :P
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:47] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>Back
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:48] #knownspace></span> ronn: <span class='c-m'>Yeah I remember the reason for the change, but I still find old links in the address book memory . . . like today.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:49] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>i have a loaner 9.25 inch schmidt cassegrain scope with an equatorial mount. the controller is fried. the mount is a Losmandy G-9. would i have to use another controller exactly like it or will others work?
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:49] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>.org is now German
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:49] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>had to go down to the garage and look ;)
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:50] #knownspace></span> ronn: <span class='c-m'>Thought someone might wanna know about the old link.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:50] #knownspace></span> SolBelter: <span class='c-m'>thx ronn
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:50] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>Mark is slowly and steadily going through and updating all the links... takes time and is a volunteer effort as you know
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:51] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>Is CrazyEddy a bot? He's always here but doesn't chat
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:51] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>no.. he is a guy in australia and i have only talked to him about 5 times
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:52] #knownspace></span> SolBelter: <span class='c-m'>we don't talk about it, but Eddy's ... Crazy.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:52] #knownspace></span> EML: <span class='c-m'>but not my alter ego.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:52] #knownspace></span> SolBelter: <span class='c-m'>joke, no disrespect toEddy
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:52] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>the only bots are Outsider and knownspaceARM. the ARM bot is the log bot
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:52] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>Ah right
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:53] #knownspace></span> ronn: <span class='c-m'>As to what title to use, astronomer is as good as anything, and is more familiar to most.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:53] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>Is Outsider 's LNL biography lookup working - I can't remember the syntax?
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:54] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>http://inamidst.com/phenny/ list of outsider commands
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:55] #knownspace></span> EML: <span class='c-m'>I'm gonna wander off momentarily. Stuff needing to get finished ...
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:55] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>okay, ed. going to stay logged on?
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:55] #knownspace></span> dmac44: <span class='c-m'>Bye Ed.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:56] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>SeanS: <span class='c-m'>thought you or Mark had added bio lookup function
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:56] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>nope... guess i could look into it.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:56] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>.bio ringworld
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:56] #knownspace></span> ronn: <span class='c-m'>If the question about the fried controller was supposed to be directed to me, I have no idea if there is a suitable substitute for the controller or if an exact match is required.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:56] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>okay ronn.. thanks
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:57] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>bio lookup might be a feature of the website
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:57] #knownspace></span> dmac44: <span class='c-m'>Ed, before you go, Lensman has done a top notch job as editor for the Tor posts.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:57] #knownspace></span> SolBelter: <span class='c-m'>i agree with dmac!
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:58] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>SeanS: <span class='c-m'>Odd, I'm sure it was discussed, maybe my memory cheats!
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:58] #knownspace></span> EML: <span class='c-m'>Doug, Sol -- I agree. Lensman is doing a most commendable job.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:58] #knownspace></span> EML: <span class='c-m'>okay ... off i go. till next month.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:58] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>i will check with Neal who does my bot programming. you can add commands to the bot
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:58] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>later Ed
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:58] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>Bye Ed
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:58] #knownspace></span> ronn: <span class='c-m'>bye, Ed
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:59] #knownspace></span> SolBelter: <span class='c-m'>working with Lensman was i imagine a mini-collaboration and a good one We each listened to each other's reasons for changes and made them. Satisfying!
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:59] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>Anyone got a link for Tor RW stuff?
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[16:59] #knownspace></span> dmac44: <span class='c-m'>got to tor.com and search on "ringworld 40th"
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:00] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>.g ringworld 40th site:tor.com
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:00] #knownspace></span> Outsider: <span class='c-m'>AlexA: <span class='c-m'>http://www.tor.com/blogs/2010/10/ringworld-40th-anniversary-introduction
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:00] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>:D
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:00] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>there ya go... from the speaking whatever of outsider
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:01] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>who sold the location of the ringworld to the puppeteers
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:01] #knownspace></span> dmac44: <span class='c-m'>supposively the outsiders
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:01] #knownspace></span> SolBelter: <span class='c-m'>http://www.tor.com/blogs/2010/10/ringworld-40th-anniversary-on-torcom has all the blogs
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:02] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>i bet i know most of the authors. ;)
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:02] #knownspace></span> SolBelter: <span class='c-m'>no bet :)
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:02] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>hehe
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:03] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>some really good posts there
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:03] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>i will check it out
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:05] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>and yeah some familiar names posting :-)
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:05] #knownspace></span> SolBelter: <span class='c-m'>ok all, off to real-life [RL] Have a good weekend!
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:06] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>good luck mining the asteroids.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:06] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>by Sol
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:06] #knownspace></span> SolBelter: <span class='c-m'>Alexaa - Nice demo of bio command
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:07] #knownspace></span> SolBelter: <span class='c-m'>that too Sean [mining EVE online asteroids]
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:07] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>heh
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:09] #knownspace></span> dmac44: <span class='c-m'>I've got stuff to catch up on too. See you all next month.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:10] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>later dmac
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:10] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>SeanS: <span class='c-m'>That response from Outsider was from the .g google search command
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:10] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>i guess for that controller question, i need to find a good astronomy irc channel.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:11] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>alexa, i know ;)
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:11] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>bio
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:12] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>Oops, that was meant to be @ Solbelter
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:12] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>Autosuggest messed up :(
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:13] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>no worries. ;)
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:14] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>So none if you watched "The Walking Dead"? Shame
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:14] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>i think i saw a commercial for it. when was it on?
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:16] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>hmm, chatted that whole thing from an iphone.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:16] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>i have so many typos when i use those things
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:17] #knownspace></span> ronn: <span class='c-m'>Re the controller: <span class='c-m'> I suppose you have tried the web site for the telescope and/or the mount?
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:17] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>yah... 200 bucks for a new board
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:18] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>400 bucks for the whole controller
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:18] #knownspace></span> ronn: <span class='c-m'>And . . . you are looking for something cheaper.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:18] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>the controller is very basic.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:18] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>well, kinda thinking a goto
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:19] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>which would be more expensive most likely
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:19] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>dont know much about them which is why i asked an astronomer who may or may not know
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:20] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>gonna sme
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:20] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>opps
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:21] #knownspace></span> ronn: <span class='c-m'>Technically that's not so much an astronomy question as one about electronics . . .
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:21] AlexA has joined #knownspace
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:21] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>true.. but i would figure an astronomer might have one out in the yard as well for fun
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:21] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>My battery died :(
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:22] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>i commented about the iphone thing. here
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:22] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>hmm, chatted that whole thing from an iphone.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:22] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>i have so many typos when i use those things
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:22] #knownspace></span> ronn: <span class='c-m'>I don't suppose you know anyone who could troubleshoot the board for you and find out if there is something that can be fixed .
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:23] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>SeanS: <span class='c-m'>Walking Dead was on Hallowe'en night in US & last night in UK
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:23] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>good idea but no
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:23] #knownspace></span> ronn: <span class='c-m'>No, I don't have that kind of budget.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:24] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>gonna sneak in a favour request: <span class='c-m'>from tomorrow, could some of you nominate The Signal podcast in the categories Best Parduced and Movies and Films over at www.podcastawards.com you only need to nominate us once(in fact multiple noms count as cheating!) and just in those 2 categories. We're hoping to get our second podcasting award (and exposure for Firefly fandom) this year. Thanks
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:24] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>me either really.. like i said. this is a loaner but i may have it for years. the owner bought a 16 inch dobsonian and this was just collecting dust in his garage
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:25] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>No, didn't see The WAlking Dead - was hat on terrestrial TV in the UK?
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:27] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>FX in UK - which is on Sky, but not Virgin apparently
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:27] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>i was still recovering from my halloween party on saturday. in fact most of the people here were probably still recovering until really late sunday
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:28] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>ah, don't have any subscription TV
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:28] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>I guess a terrestrial broadcaster may show it later
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:28] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>Or the DVD or torrents
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:29] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>don't torrent, but is it good?
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:33] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>I loved it & reviews are very possitive. I read first few TPBs if the comic first though
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:34] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>ah
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:34] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>Pilot is very cinematic - it is directed by Darrabont (sp)
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:34] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>Will keep and eye out
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:40] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>The first sticks close to comic with a few additions. Next ep is more original from the trailer
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:41] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>i never read the comic
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:43] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>SeanS: <span class='c-m'>I don't usually read comics, only read these because TV series was coming
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:47] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>I understand... i am just overloaded with media right now and really dont see any end in sight.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:50] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>SeanS: <span class='c-m'>I know the feeling: <span class='c-m'>my pvr is half full & I have loads of unwatched DVDs
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:51] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>yeah, also figure that i am a computer guy with an 8 meg connection and a low ethical standard with regard to media. ;)
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:54] #knownspace></span> ronn: <span class='c-m'>Okay . . . no one can blame me this time for starting a flame war over copyright . . . :D
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:55] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>lensman is doing something else
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:56] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>whenever someone offers something, he is the one that goes nuts.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:58] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>SeanS: <span class='c-m'>Did you get round to watching "Star Cops"?
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:58] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>the thing with a tv show is exactly like Nick said. it will show up on hulu or something at some point
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[17:59] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>i pulled 3 eps of star cops and could not get into it
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[18:00] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>Fair enough. It's not perfect, but best hard SF show Ive seen IMHO
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[18:00] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>i may not of given it enough of a chance... will try again in a couple of years. keep reminding me
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[18:03] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>It is 80s tv done on a BBC budget, but the scripts shine through
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[18:04] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>Ok guys I think I'll go and consume some media
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[18:04] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>i am good with 80s bbc... i might not of been it the right mindset to watch it if you know what i mean. i have only tried once
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[18:05] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>charge your phone.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[18:05] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>Glad to have made it thus time - great to have Larry in & Eds always good value
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[18:05] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>thats why i maintain the irc server
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[18:05] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>iPod Touch actually!
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[18:06] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>i cant type on those worth a shit either
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[18:07] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>Well its much better than my LG Cookie touchscreen phone - that needs a stylus & is awful in comparison :(
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[18:07] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>See you later!
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[18:07] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>i dont do cell phones so lack of experience is the problem for me
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[18:08] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>later
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[18:08] #knownspace></span> AlexA: <span class='c-m'>Cheers
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[19:09] #knownspace></span> Akiraa: <span class='c-m'>hi
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[19:11] #knownspace></span> Akiraa: <span class='c-m'>so is Star Cops any good?
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[19:45] #knownspace></span> NickE: <span class='c-m'>nite
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[19:50] Dan has joined #knownspace
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[19:52] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>I suppose I missed everything. Couldn't be helped- We had to take the trash to the county landfill & then go shopping. :)
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[20:19] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>I ordered RAM for the 2 Dell laptops today. When it arrives I'll have both of them maxed out. The C610 is still updating the Ubuntu install- After 4 or 5 days, the update process is now at roughly 60%. Who knew it was gonna take this long? LOL!
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[20:21] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>I've been thinking about using the SUSE CD to make the computer in the living room dual-boot Win XP/SUSE Linux. But I'm going to wait and see how much I like Ubuntu on the laptop before I commit.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[20:21] #knownspace></span> Akiraa: <span class='c-m'>Dan, you are doing TSP optimizations, right?
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[20:23] #knownspace></span> Akiraa: <span class='c-m'>linux is always a headache, you sort of have to live with it for a few months before it breaks in
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[20:23] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>I haven't the foggiest. I did the install, then the first thing that popped up was Update Manager. I clicked on Update All, and it's been downloading & installing the latest versions of the stuff it installed ever since.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[20:24] #knownspace></span> Akiraa: <span class='c-m'>you shoulg get Mint and not Ubuntu: <span class='c-m'>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_Mint
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[20:24] #knownspace></span> Akiraa: <span class='c-m'>ubuntu has no native support for mp3, JVM or Flash or video card drivers etc...
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[20:25] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>I've never use any sort of Linux before, but Sean kept after me to try it and see why it was so dramatically superior to every other OS on the planet.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[20:25] #knownspace></span> Akiraa: <span class='c-m'>it's not, it's just free and with some tweaking it's OK for office apps & browsing
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[20:26] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>Yet Sean also continually complains about stuff that isn't available for Linux that I can just click on and use in Win XP. :)
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[20:28] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>I looked up what Linux would function best on a Dell C610 laptop that's a decade or more old and Ubuntu was the top of that list.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[20:29] #knownspace></span> Akiraa: <span class='c-m'>it would work fine on any hardware
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[20:29] #knownspace></span> Akiraa: <span class='c-m'>having to reformat the main partition is not as pressing an issue
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[20:29] #knownspace></span> Akiraa: <span class='c-m'>i.e. no significant performance degradation over time as in windows
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[20:29] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>I was basically just trying to avoid having the thing turn into a doorstop on me. I have a newer Dell C810 and a brand new ASUS netbook as well.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[20:30] #knownspace></span> Akiraa: <span class='c-m'>you can install ubuntu from wubi
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[20:30] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>Ubuntu set itself up as a dual-boot with the Win 2000 already on the thing.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[20:30] #knownspace></span> Akiraa: <span class='c-m'>it's a windows app that installs linux in a file on a NTFS partition
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[20:31] #knownspace></span> Akiraa: <span class='c-m'>and to uninstall linux, just boot up windows and select "uninstall" from control panel
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[20:31] #knownspace></span> Akiraa: <span class='c-m'>http://www.ubuntu.com/desktop/get-ubuntu/windows-installer
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[20:31] #knownspace></span> Akiraa: <span class='c-m'>easiest way to install and uninstall ubuntu
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[20:32] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>Not a problem. I just wanted to see what the fuss was about with a free download rather than buying yet another Win XP full install CD off of eBay.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[20:32] #knownspace></span> Akiraa: <span class='c-m'>but I'd recommend getting Mint
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[20:33] #knownspace></span> Akiraa: <span class='c-m'>you can also try to install in a vmware VM
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[20:34] #knownspace></span> Akiraa: <span class='c-m'>you can give the ubuntu VM some 500MB of RAM and it'll work fine
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[20:34] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>The ASUS is now my primary travel 'puter, and the 2 Dell laptops will be re-purposed to some job or other here in the house. I also have several desktop 'puters for various jobs here in the house as well.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[20:37] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>I ordered 2 of the 512 RAM strips for the C610 that'll be running Ubuntu, and another 256 for the C810. That'll max both of them out.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[20:39] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>Odd how the older laptop can use twice as much RAM as the newer one. I wonder why that is?
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[20:40] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>I'll still have to replace the hard drives in both Dells to make them really useful. They both have 20 Gb hard drives, while the ASUS netbook came with a 180 Gb hard drive.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[20:40] #knownspace></span> Akiraa: <span class='c-m'>computer stores stick it to their customers bigtime
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[20:41] #knownspace></span> Akiraa: <span class='c-m'>I've seen 5 year old systems on sale
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[20:42] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>I got both of the Dells used. The C810 was free from work, the C610 I got from a mail order catalog for a couple of hundred $$.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[20:44] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>3 of the desktop 'puters in the house were given to me. My main workhorse desktop I had built at a local shop, but I've upgraded it myself since then.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[20:46] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>I can do hardware, LOL! It's just software that gives me headaches.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[20:48] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>I've got a dead IBM Thinkpad laptop I keep meaning to box up and send to Sean so he can make a pictureframe out of it, or somehthing. :)
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[20:51] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>Just bought a new Cannon scanner/printer at WalMart today to hook up into the household LAN so that my wife can scann a few acres of photographs she has laying around, as well as her family geneology paperwork. We've already got a great HP printer that'll serve us for years yet as a general workhorse.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[21:22] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>hi dan
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[21:23] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>been on phone with julie for 2 hours.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[21:27] #knownspace></span> Akiraa: <span class='c-m'>Movieplot terrorist scenario: <span class='c-m'>an evil corporation builds a giant solar shade, 6 months of sunless winter triggers a new ice age.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[21:28] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>LOL!
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[21:28] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>sounds like scifi channel bs
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[21:30] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>Sounds a little like a plot point from an Arthur C. Clarke novel where the aliens put a polarizing sunshade in orbit to convince the humans of their power & tech abilities.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[21:30] #knownspace></span> Akiraa: <span class='c-m'>the scenario would be, the evil corporation wins a large contract to build a small shade to combat global warming
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[21:31] #knownspace></span> Akiraa: <span class='c-m'>but they build it 10 times bigger :)
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[21:32] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>well.. my opinion on global warming
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[21:32] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>Same as mine? Bring it on!
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[21:34] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>man made... bull shit... if there was man made global warming it would of happened in the 40's and 50's when you couldnt see towns due to smog
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[21:34] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>now, everthing is clean...
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[21:35] #knownspace></span> Akiraa: <span class='c-m'>massive capital diverted into this green monster
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[21:36] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>if man did it, why does every other rocky body in the solar system heat the same as earth... maybe a large ball of fusiion in the middle of the solar system?
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[21:36] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>and the amount of global heating is a whopping .1C
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[21:37] #knownspace></span> Akiraa: <span class='c-m'>but remember the polar bears
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[21:37] #knownspace></span> Akiraa: <span class='c-m'>disregard that they survived several ice ages and warmings before humans came along
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[21:37] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>I'm all for clean air and reducing man-made polution, but from what I've read the entire solar system is undergoing a hot spell.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[21:37] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>yeah... 1 dead out of a herd of 30.... oops... now more than 300
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[21:38] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>obiviiously, i scoff at man made global warming
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[21:40] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>if i met al gore face to face, i would smack the lliving shit out of him
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[21:41] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>he just bought a house on the water..... but i thought he said that the water would rise to the point that his own new house would be under. talk about a hypocrit
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[21:43] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>He also had a huge home that wastes loads of power, and uses a big jet plane to fly around to his global warming lectures all over the world.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[21:43] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>true
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[21:44] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>His carbon footprint is larger than the footprint of the county I live in, and a couple of the nearby counties as well.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[21:45] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>most likely
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[21:45] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>so everybody should go back to horse and buggy days to 'save the planet' except him
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[21:46] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>In other news, Certain-Teed/Saint Gobain have started manufacturing roofing shingles that are solar panels. Score 1 point for the company I work for!
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[21:47] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>one volcano puts out more stuff than we ever have and i need to cut back
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[21:47] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>thaats cool
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[21:48] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>Once the price goes down to something reasonable, I'll be re-roofing my house.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[21:48] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>I'll get an employee discount, too.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[21:48] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>i have no problem with stuff like that
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[21:49] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>20% off retail, or better.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[21:49] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>shingle hard to do on a flat roof
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[21:50] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>Used to be 35% off, but I don't know what cutbacks have been put in place since the housing market tanked.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[21:52] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>lets see what happens in the next couple months... ultra liberal friend of mine made the comment today that he didnt understand why they elected republicans this time.... i did not fight
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[21:55] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>News Flash: <span class='c-m'>Changing politicians will make no difference whatsoever! Film at 11!
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[21:58] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>i think the people spoke for the most part and they better do better.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[21:58] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>Sorry, I'm a little cynical.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[21:58] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>so am i
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[21:59] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>i wish you lived around the corner instead of 6 hours away... i would take the scope out.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[22:00] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>I can't see that exchanging one branch of the Amateur Mafia for another is gonna change a damn thing. The cost of everything is still going to go up, the value of everything is still going to go down, taxes are going to get higher, and jobs are still going to get shipped out of the country to protect Big Business from losing their unfair share of their profit margins.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[22:01] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>the fair tax would fix most of that but it will never be passed
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[22:02] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>I agree, a flat sales tax will never happen a long as the government is allowed t pocket most of the collected tax monies.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[22:03] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>not the gov't... politicians who get money for putting in loopholes
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[22:04] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>Pass a law forcing all politicians to be paid no more than minimum wage, with mandatory life-at-hard-labor prison sentences for any politico who accepts outside funding for any reason.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[22:05] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>good luck
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[22:05] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>i agree... but good luck
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[22:05] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>same chance as the fair tax... nil
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[22:05] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>Yeah, I'm not stupid enough to think that's even possible. But I'd loveto see it hapen.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[22:06] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>I'm frickin freezing here!
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[22:06] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>really? i am sure it is colder here
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[22:07] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>I'm sure that you're right. You're 600 miles further North of us.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[22:07] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>i want 30 degrees of global warming in the winter... maybe 10 degrees of global cooling in the summer and a nice global breeze
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[22:08] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>And cheap beer!
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[22:08] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>with ya there
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[22:10] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>i would call except lyn would probablly want to drunk talk to my drunk butt and i am thinking about crashing.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[22:11] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>i think i will.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[22:11] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>She's not drunk yet. Only on her 3rd glass of wine.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[22:11] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>I hope you edit this shit out of the chat logs!
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[22:12] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>:)
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[22:12] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>i can
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[22:12] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>usually i just send 12am to 12 am
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[22:13] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>OK, got the new phone from the living room. It has better batteries than the old one.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[22:13] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>tis linux... all text all the time
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[22:13] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>easy to edit
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[22:14] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>lensman asked me to remove his email addy from the last chat. dont know why
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[22:14] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>Chop everything from 6PM tonight and I think we'll be safe. LOL!
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[22:15] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>i was about to type something rude and stopped myself
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[22:16] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>I'd rather think that you & I & Akiraa can express our opinions without the need to self-edit for posterity.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[22:16] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>copy and paste and cut works quite well in linux
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[22:17] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>Ok, OK, I've downloaded & installed Ubuntu already! Next week when it finished updating itself I may even get a chance to use it. LOL!
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[22:17] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>well, you know what soob and i think of each other
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[22:18] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>Dunno what Sooby thinks of you, but I am aware of what you think of him. "Killfiled, forever..."
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[22:18] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>pretty much
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[22:19] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>If you want to call, Lyn is probably more sober than am I at the moment, LOL!
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[22:20] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>i think i am going to go to bed. been drinking beer since about 3:30
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[22:20] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>OK, sounds like a plan!
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[22:20] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>dont want to inflict myself and my giant dog wants company
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[22:20] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>I've got a scanner to un-box and figure out how & where to hook up.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[22:21] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>That's my plan for part of tomorrow.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[22:21] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>cool... later dan
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[22:22] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>Got to finish the dog pen and unload the doghouse igloo we bought today, too.
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[22:22] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>gonna put a bunch on the play list
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[22:22] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>Goodnight, Sean!
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[22:22] #knownspace></span> SeanS: <span class='c-m'>the sat dies for updates around 2
	</span><br>
	<span class='c-b'>[22:25] #knownspace></span> Dan: <span class='c-m'>I'm gonna log out and find something to read. Goodnight!
	</span><br>